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PFree

Being honest...

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For me, a fair league position right now would be mid-table at best, we have some good individual players but in reality aren't a great side overall. In the same way the Premier league is three 'mini leagues', given our resources and lack of parachute payments, we are a middle tire side and therefore over performing.

I'm no fan of LJ as I don't believe he has the ability or knowledge tacticly to take us any further. I do however feel for him though given every time we have a decent player, they get sold on.

i sincerely hope I am wrong and that LJ takes us up (albeit we'll pretty much need a new team to stay and SL has already made it clear he would not spend given that eventuality).

We got beat by a much better team today but let's try and find the positives, we are lucky to be where we are and are over performing, in with a chance of the end of season mix up is good news - no other team seems to want it after all 👍

 

 

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How do you objectively determine a fair league position other than the number of points accrued over the course of a season?

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1 minute ago, PFree said:

For me, a fair league position right now would be mid-table at best, we have some good individual players but in reality aren't a great side overall. In the same way the Premier league is three 'mini leagues', given our resources and lack of parachute payments, we are a middle tire side and therefore over performing.

I'm no fan of LJ as I don't believe he has the ability or knowledge tacticly to take us any further. I do however feel for him though given every time we have a decent player, they get sold on.

i sincerely hope I am wrong and that LJ takes us up (albeit we'll pretty much need a new team to stay and SL has already made it clear he would not spend given that eventuality).

We got beat by a much better team today but let's try and find the positives, we are lucky to be where we are and are over performing, in with a chance of the end of season mix up is good news - no other team seems to want it after all 👍

 

 

I honestly think we judge ourselves way too harshly. To my mind are 5 really strong teams in this division and, for the most part we have kept pace with them. I think there are then a number of teams who could argue to be around about as good as we are but I think we always overestimate how many genuinely strong teams there are in the division. We are where we deserve to be - so far at least. Perhaps we will slip a few places by the end of the season but we are seventh because we deserve to be seventh on merit and I don't think anyone outside of WBA, Leeds, Brentford, Fulham (who we beat) and of course Forest really can make a convincing case to be definitely better than us. 

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3 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I honestly think we judge ourselves way too harshly. To my mind are 5 really strong teams in this division and, for the most part we have kept pace with them. I think there are then a number of teams who could argue to be around about as good as we are but I think we always overestimate how many genuinely strong teams there are in the division. We are where we deserve to be - so far at least. Perhaps we will slip a few places by the end of the season but we are seventh because we deserve to be seventh on merit and I don't think anyone outside of WBA, Leeds, Brentford, Fulham (who we beat) and of course Forest really can make a convincing case to be definitely better than us. 

I largely agree but Fulham are rather less than the sum of their parts imo.

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5 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I honestly think we judge ourselves way too harshly. To my mind are 5 really strong teams in this division and, for the most part we have kept pace with them. I think there are then a number of teams who could argue to be around about as good as we are but I think we always overestimate how many genuinely strong teams there are in the division. We are where we deserve to be - so far at least. Perhaps we will slip a few places by the end of the season but we are seventh because we deserve to be seventh on merit and I don't think anyone outside of WBA, Leeds, Brentford, Fulham (who we beat) and of course Forest really can make a convincing case to be definitely better than us. 

PS I meant to say "perhaps Forest". Christ knows why I wrote "of course" instead...

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We might be in a “fair” league position but 30 odd percent possession game after game isn’t much fun to watch imo.

We have one or two individuals who can deliver one off moments of quality, a few with know how and the rest run through brick walls. Overall that makes us a pretty average side that play very average football but have the ability to grind out results.

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7 minutes ago, Honiton Tony said:

Let's face it if we went up we would be a bloody embarrassment

That , and this won’t be popular but I do think what if we were to ‘grind’ our way up

Can anyone seriously say , looking at us as a package now , and even with new summer recruits , they’d not fear about the outcome 

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1 minute ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

That , and this won’t be popular but I do think what if we were to ‘grind’ our way up

Can anyone seriously say , looking at us as a package now , and even with new summer recruits , they’d not fear about the outcome 

We wouldn’t get 10 points with the current squad but, of course, we would strengthen significantly.

Like I said though we are a pretty boring watch on the whole.

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10 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

That , and this won’t be popular but I do think what if we were to ‘grind’ our way up

Can anyone seriously say , looking at us as a package now , and even with new summer recruits , they’d not fear about the outcome 

Of course. But my hope is we'd do what Burnley did, and use an unexpected promotion to grow the club, even accepting the possibility of coming straight back down and using those resources to build a team in a stronger position. If we fluked our way up and played our cards right, it could make us one of the strongest teams in the division in two years time and be a step towards becoming an established premier league side...

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3 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

That , and this won’t be popular but I do think what if we were to ‘grind’ our way up

Can anyone seriously say , looking at us as a package now , and even with new summer recruits , they’d not fear about the outcome 

I've started to fear the playoffs.

This is almost a lose/lose situation for me. IF we get to the play-offs and get promoted, then unless we spend big I fear the worse. Regular beatings, fewer proper time kick-offs, higher prices and oodles more Sky pundit bellox. The only upside would be future parachute payments.

If we make it to the top six and don't go up, then the 'year on year' improvement and the achievement of making the play-offs means we will have to endure another year (or maybe more) of really dull football at home because it will have been proven to be a successful formula.

If we have to play the way we do at home in order to get into the play-offs I'm not sure I wan't us to get there. 

 

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23 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I largely agree but Fulham are rather less than the sum of their parts imo.

They are. If it was just based on ability they'd be walking the division.

I suspect their fans regularly have the same debate as we often do on here about whether their manager is getting the best out of what they've got.

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3 minutes ago, handballbygordonparr said:

I've started to fear the playoffs.

This is almost a lose/lose situation for me. IF we get to the play-offs and get promoted, then unless we spend big I fear the worse. Regular beatings, fewer proper time kick-offs, higher prices and oodles more Sky pundit bellox. The only upside would be future parachute payments.

If we make it to the top six and don't go up, then the 'year on year' improvement and the achievement of making the play-offs means we will have to endure another year (or maybe more) of really dull football at home because it will have been proven to be a successful formula.

If we have to play the way we do at home in order to get into the play-offs I'm not sure I wan't us to get there. 

 

Our way of playing at home will see season ticket sales and therefore crowds drop in the medium to long term, no two ways about that.

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11 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Of course. But my hope is we'd do what Burnley did, and use an unexpected promotion to grow the club, even accepting the possibility of coming straight back down and using those resources to build a team in a stronger position. If we fluked our way up and played our cards right, it could make us one of the strongest teams in the division in two years time and be a step towards becoming an established premier league side...

Exactly.

And That has to be accepted by us all.

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20 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

We wouldn’t get 10 points with the current squad but, of course, we would strengthen significantly.

Like I said though we are a pretty boring watch on the whole.

We wouldn’t get ten points with the current squad and manager. The fact is that I still don’t see the value LJ brings to team structure or coordination. I don’t think he should be fired, but I look at these players and think a great manager would have them top two. 

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2 minutes ago, Tom Fleuriot said:

We wouldn’t get ten points with the current squad and manager. The fact is that I still don’t see the value LJ brings to team structure or coordination. I don’t think he should be fired, but I look at these players and think a great manager would have them top two. 

I think the fan base is at a crossroads. There’s a sizeable number that won’t have him, an equally sizeable number that think he’s God because we are in 7th and a large number of us who look at the current way of playing and wonder how long we want to watch it?

I’m not sure whether the benefactor is that bothered though........

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3 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I think the fan base is at a crossroads. There’s a sizeable number that won’t have him, an equally sizeable number that think he’s God because we are in 7th and a large number of us who look at the current way of playing and wonder how long we want to watch it?

I’m not sure whether the benefactor is that bothered though........

I think he’s giving him until the end of the season, which I think is reasonable. I’m not saying I won’t have LJ. I’m just saying I can’t explain to anybody what he brings to the table. And I do think that with this squad, we should finish 6th or 7th because we lose out on the last day. 

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20 minutes ago, handballbygordonparr said:

I've started to fear the playoffs.

This is almost a lose/lose situation for me. IF we get to the play-offs and get promoted, then unless we spend big I fear the worse. Regular beatings, fewer proper time kick-offs, higher prices and oodles more Sky pundit bellox. The only upside would be future parachute payments.

If we make it to the top six and don't go up, then the 'year on year' improvement and the achievement of making the play-offs means we will have to endure another year (or maybe more) of really dull football at home because it will have been proven to be a successful formula.

If we have to play the way we do at home in order to get into the play-offs I'm not sure I wan't us to get there. 

 

While I agree, remembering last season, based on the two games vs us, I would have said the same about Sheffield United.

So you never know...

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I think the fan base is at a crossroads. There’s a sizeable number that won’t have him, an equally sizeable number that think he’s God because we are in 7th and a large number of us who look at the current way of playing and wonder how long we want to watch it?

I’m not sure whether the benefactor is that bothered though........

I actually think the number who either think he is God or won't have him at all is actually quite a small section of the fan base.

I think a far greater number of supporters are way more pragmatic than that, very open to the fact that he has flaws but are also aware that generally speaking he has delivered on expectation. Of course the football could be a lot better but, at the same time, the manager has rarely been able to field his first choice XI for much of the season and I think some of the performances are the result of pragmatic decisions to overcome shortcomings this has created in the team.

My view is we have to be competing for the play-offs this season and I would not accept a late season drop-off as in recent seasons. If we finish within 3 points of the play-offs or better then I'd accept we probably have him for next season and I'd be okay with that. If not, I'll probably feel it is time for a change. But I think far more of us judge LJ week by week and moderate our views based on what happens than there are people passionately pro or anti-him.

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48 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

We wouldn’t get 10 points with the current squad but, of course, we would strengthen significantly.

Like I said though we are a pretty boring watch on the whole.

I won’t pay to watch us. Regardless of us being in the top 10 of the Championship,  I think we are one of the most boring City sides I’ve ever watched.

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40 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

They are. If it was just based on ability they'd be walking the division.

I suspect their fans regularly have the same debate as we often do on here about whether their manager is getting the best out of what they've got.

It’s all very well having young managers who have connections with the club but have achieved nothing in the game as managers,the simple equation is a proven manager would have Fulham strolling this league

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37 minutes ago, Tom Fleuriot said:

We wouldn’t get ten points with the current squad and manager. The fact is that I still don’t see the value LJ brings to team structure or coordination. I don’t think he should be fired, but I look at these players and think a great manager would have them top two. 

I think that's called settling

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42 minutes ago, handballbygordonparr said:

I've started to fear the playoffs.

This is almost a lose/lose situation for me. IF we get to the play-offs and get promoted, then unless we spend big I fear the worse. Regular beatings, fewer proper time kick-offs, higher prices and oodles more Sky pundit bellox. The only upside would be future parachute payments.

If we make it to the top six and don't go up, then the 'year on year' improvement and the achievement of making the play-offs means we will have to endure another year (or maybe more) of really dull football at home because it will have been proven to be a successful formula.

If we have to play the way we do at home in order to get into the play-offs I'm not sure I wan't us to get there. 

 

We  won't so don't worry but unfortunately we will have to endure it till LJ contract runs out..... he's gone as far as he can and some out of his hands selling player after play but your have to question why we've let Reid, Webster and Josh to go so to be follwed by NE in the summer and not get anywhere near them is beyond me.... they summer will be massive as know we have a structure in defence and up front we need to seriously focus on 3 if not 4 game changers in midfield and until that's done we won't get anywhere near the finish line ...... we're weak where it  matters most.

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15 minutes ago, joe jordans teeth said:

It’s all very well having young managers who have connections with the club but have achieved nothing in the game as managers,the simple equation is a proven manager would have Fulham strolling this league

Not so sure on that. I remember when QPR scraped the play-offs under Harry Redknapp with an incredibly strong squad. I also remember Pearson and Karanka struggling with very decent Derby and Forest sides and Sven Goran Eriksson massively flopping with a heavily banked rolled Leicester City. Many looked at Cardiff's squad at the start of the season and thought Warnock would get them up in the automatics. 

This is a weird league and proven managers do not always equal proven results. 

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If I’m being honest then City are pretty much where I want them to be with 13 games to go.

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5 minutes ago, Robbored said:

If I’m being honest then City are pretty much where I want them to be with 13 games to go.

Get that.

But are they playing how you would want with 13  games to go?

 

 

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Yes we got beat by a better team today, but that was down to our 1st half performance. If only that was more like our 2nd half, then we could`ve made a better game of it. 

With COD coming on, it seemed to balance up the team and get us over the halfway more.

We are where we are in the league because we got more points than the teams below us  .... We are good, and more often than not play well (apart from our home form. But that`s for another thread)  So i say lets get behind the team, sing our hearts out for the next 13 games and see where that takes us ??

We ARE in the championship and thank the lord we are not scrapping down in the lowly leagues with the likes of our near tented village idiots neighbours 

As for today, i would like to see our penalty shout again.

And on a bigger note how the heck can leeds justify selling away tickets in that stand for £39??  ... For a start the roof is too low and then put the tv gantry up there aswell. the view and the experience was just shocking.

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, RedRock said:

But are they playing how you would want with 13  games to go?

Like most City fans I’d like to see more slick and  attacking football at AG.

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1 hour ago, PFree said:

For me, a fair league position right now would be mid-table at best, we have some good individual players but in reality aren't a great side overall. In the same way the Premier league is three 'mini leagues', given our resources and lack of parachute payments, we are a middle tire side and therefore over performing.

I'm no fan of LJ as I don't believe he has the ability or knowledge tacticly to take us any further. I do however feel for him though given every time we have a decent player, they get sold on.

i sincerely hope I am wrong and that LJ takes us up (albeit we'll pretty much need a new team to stay and SL has already made it clear he would not spend given that eventuality).

We got beat by a much better team today but let's try and find the positives, we are lucky to be where we are and are over performing, in with a chance of the end of season mix up is good news - no other team seems to want it after all 👍

 

 

Glad this thread has come up really. No matter how much I love this club. We’re nowhere near good enough to go up . If by some miracle we did , we’d end up with the lowest ever points tally and with boring football. Look at Norwich, they’ll come straight back down but at least they’ve entertained. We’d stink the place out. 

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I love it on OTIB, if we are bottom of the table “the table doesn’t lie” yet if we are near the top it’s not the “fair position” 
 

This league is crazy, you only have to look at Fulham’s result today. We are in 7th because of the amount of points we have, like it or not.

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I'd be happy with mid table or even seventh if it mean't we played football that is enjoyable to watch. At the moment watching us play at home is so depressing. We definitely have the quality but we play such negative football, e.g. show signs of attacking, then stop, turn and pass it backwards and we're so slow to play it out from the keeper. I can't see us making the play-offs (not saying I don't want us to get there), so I'd be happy with of the season ended now. Our season just feels like such a slog.

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8 minutes ago, Loco Rojo said:

I'd be happy with mid table or even seventh if it mean't we played football that is enjoyable to watch. At the moment watching us play at home is so depressing. We definitely have the quality but we play such negative football, e.g. show signs of attacking, then stop, turn and pass it backwards and we're so slow to play it out from the keeper. I can't see us making the play-offs (not saying I don't want us to get there), so I'd be happy with of the season ended now. Our season just feels like such a slog.

That's easy to say, but is it the truth - loads of people like to give out that they'd be happy for mid-table if it meant entertaining football but am I the only one that remembers the total meltdown that occurred when we drew 5-5 against Hull. It doesn't get anymore entertaining than that, yet it sparked mutiny from many. How did you react after that game, out of interest? 

As for the entertainment this season, is it really that bad? Goals for and against tell a different story. We've had some dismal duds, sure, but is it really that bad that people would rather see us mid-table as opposed to seventh (and still within touching distance of the pack) so long as 'it was more entertaining'. Are we just spoiled by saturation coverage of the mega-clubs like Liverpool, Man City, Barca etc? 

This isn't criticism of your post btw, genuine questions. 

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1 hour ago, Robbored said:

If I’m being honest then City are pretty much where I want them to be with 13 games to go.

I completely agree with that. Performances have been up and down but we arent Liverpool or man city. Or even Leeds or west brom. We are doing well to be where we are

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1 minute ago, poland_exile said:

That's easy to say, but is it the truth - loads of people like to give out that they'd be happy for mid-table if it meant entertaining football but am I the only one that remembers the total meltdown that occurred when we drew 5-5 against Hull. It doesn't get anymore entertaining than that, yet it sparked mutiny from many. How did you react after that game, out of interest? 

As for the entertainment this season, is it really that bad? Goals for and against tell a different story. We've had some dismal duds, sure, but is it really that bad that people would rather see us mid-table as opposed to seventh (and still within touching distance of the pack) so long as 'it was more entertaining'. Are we just spoiled by saturation coverage of the mega-clubs like Liverpool, Man City, Barca etc? 

This isn't criticism of your post btw, genuine questions. 

Pretty sure I was furious....but I quite like a boring, attritional 1-0.

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2 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

I won’t pay to watch us. Regardless of us being in the top 10 of the Championship,  I think we are one of the most boring City sides I’ve ever watched.

I think it would be hard for anyone to claim that the Derby game was boring football. 

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59 minutes ago, PolskRed said:

I love it on OTIB, if we are bottom of the table “the table doesn’t lie” yet if we are near the top it’s not the “fair position” 
 

This league is crazy, you only have to look at Fulham’s result today. We are in 7th because of the amount of points we have, like it or not.

The table never tells the 'truth' until the season is over,before then it lies on a weekly basis.

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1 hour ago, steviestevieneville said:

Glad this thread has come up really. No matter how much I love this club. We’re nowhere near good enough to go up . If by some miracle we did , we’d end up with the lowest ever points tally and with boring football. Look at Norwich, they’ll come straight back down but at least they’ve entertained. We’d stink the place out. 

That's a ridiculous thing to say. I don't think we'll get promoted but if we did, you have no idea who we would sign. We could have half a different team by next season

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20 minutes ago, poland_exile said:

That's easy to say, but is it the truth - loads of people like to give out that they'd be happy for mid-table if it meant entertaining football but am I the only one that remembers the total meltdown that occurred when we drew 5-5 against Hull. It doesn't get anymore entertaining than that, yet it sparked mutiny from many. How did you react after that game, out of interest? 

As for the entertainment this season, is it really that bad? Goals for and against tell a different story. We've had some dismal duds, sure, but is it really that bad that people would rather see us mid-table as opposed to seventh (and still within touching distance of the pack) so long as 'it was more entertaining'. Are we just spoiled by saturation coverage of the mega-clubs like Liverpool, Man City, Barca etc? 

This isn't criticism of your post btw, genuine questions. 

That's ok, didn't take your post as criticism. For me, scoring goals alone doesn't equal entertainment (although that is a huge part of it). I really miss the quick, confident passing and attacking style of football over the years that we can play, where we haven't stopped and played it back so often. We also seem to have gotten in to a habit recently where we are playing the ball out of defence but no one further up the pitch seems to want it or doesn't to find space/options to be passed to (which often results in us passing it backwards). It's like our players are watching the game rather than taking part in it - crying out for someone to take charge so often. I'm not saying I dislike Johnson's overall football, because he's shown us so often that we do and can play more flowing, faster football but our style these days just seems to have changed and his tactics seem to be more slow like a game of chess waiting to see who will blink first.  I find it difficult to explain when we seem like the away side at home.

As I said we definately have the quality but it's almost like we're playing a style of football that doesn't quite suit our players. It's tough to watch.

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If you include the 3 loanees, we are probably 2 players away from being a top notch Championship side. 

Gulp. That makes 5 signings in the Summer! Half a team. 

Just then need someone who can organise them. 

 

Four years, seven/eight windows in... not that brilliant.

Anyhow, onwards and upwards.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Bas's perfect hattrick said:

That's a ridiculous thing to say. I don't think we'll get promoted but if we did, you have no idea who we would sign. We could have half a different team by next season

I’m talking more about the managers style of football more than any individual player 

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19 hours ago, PFree said:

For me, a fair league position right now would be mid-table at best, we have some good individual players but in reality aren't a great side overall. In the same way the Premier league is three 'mini leagues', given our resources and lack of parachute payments, we are a middle tire side and therefore over performing.

I'm no fan of LJ as I don't believe he has the ability or knowledge tacticly to take us any further. I do however feel for him though given every time we have a decent player, they get sold on.

i sincerely hope I am wrong and that LJ takes us up (albeit we'll pretty much need a new team to stay and SL has already made it clear he would not spend given that eventuality).

We got beat by a much better team today but let's try and find the positives, we are lucky to be where we are and are over performing, in with a chance of the end of season mix up is good news - no other team seems to want it after all 👍

 

 

Why is our position unfair?  We are the 7th best team in this league. Have we got there through lots of refereeing decisions or luck with injuries? No.  7th is fully deserved. Any other positions you think unfair or just ours?!

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17 hours ago, Bas's perfect hattrick said:

That's a ridiculous thing to say. I don't think we'll get promoted but if we did, you have no idea who we would sign. We could have half a different team by next season

You have to have a base , and a plan to work from 

We don’t have one at the moment , before you even consider how far off we are and the leap required

Bloodbath  

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20 hours ago, robin_unreliant said:

I think it would be hard for anyone to claim that the Derby game was boring football. 

I don't think anyone claimed the Derby game was boring, quite the opposite.

An exception to the rule though - far too many City performances at AG lack sufficient entertainment and excitement.

Noticeable that fans on Ashton Road after the Derby game were chatting loudly and excitedly about the match, in direct contrast to the majority of more tedious home games where they stream out of the Gate subdued and with an air of disappointment.

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49 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I don't think anyone claimed the Derby game was boring, quite the opposite.

An exception to the rule though - far too many City performances at AG lack sufficient entertainment and excitement.

Noticeable that fans on Ashton Road after the Derby game were chatting loudly and excitedly about the match, in direct contrast to the majority of more tedious home games where they stream out of the Gate subdued and with an air of disappointment.

We were very entertaining in league 1 perhaps we’re better off there ? 

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