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REDOXO

Taylor Moore Class!

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9 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

In fairness to LJ on this point 

I have to say , in his shoes , under pressure for results , I’m not sure I would tbh , or at least not in those selection moments

Playing Devils advocate

Is there many on here who would pick a young player over a senior player if you felt that you were less likely to pick up points 

Even Lloyd Kelly , the most promising we’ve had cost us points through inexperience - it’s a reality of young players learning

Quite simply , IMHO they have to be good enough or show the signs of imminently becoming so if you are going to play them - No freebie points at this level.

We are trying to ram a pathway into a plan whilst in a pretty brutal League

Ideally we would have commenced this plan years ago whilst in League One - and to a large degree we did out of necessity (And some decent talent) in Bobby , Joe etc but you wonder whether either would have had so many opportunities if they were coming through at 18/19 now , where we ciurrently sit

Like all fans there’s nothing better to see than a young player breaking through , but we can’t be playing players just because they are young

We have to actually decide what we are and what the realistic plan is 

Again in fairness to LJ , I felt that it was naive and unfair of SL or expect a top six , or improved finish if LJ was also expected to bring through young players at the same time 

I have to be fair that IMHO , in what I’ve seen of our younger choices I’m not sure I could criticise their amount of involvement

(My only thoughts of questionable decisions  would be I might have been tempted to bring Joe Morrell back , and play him , in January , and I found the use of Rodri off the bench above a chance to give Semenyo minutes, especially in games where we had the 3 points all but done,  baffling  )


Where Lee falls down IMHO is he firstly , he clearly jumped at the role and the ethos , but then sees that the realities of combining the pathway and promotion which he desperately craves for the Club , and himself 

Secondly he’s been allowed to divert from the pathway , (having the opinion that some of our younger choices arnt good enough , or at least ready ) and has been allowed to assemble a deep squad of established pros but is still not delivering at the top end.

I do think that if fans want top six finishes and a pathway , quite simply you have to have youngsters that are good enough
 

 

 

The big worry is, with Cardiff and their Cat 1 Academy being so close, if we can’t show our best young players a decent pathway, you don’t have to think too hard where any good local talent goes, if they haven’t already been sapped up by Southampton.

That’s one of the pillars well and truly ******.

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1 hour ago, Shtanley said:

Taylor Moore had a few questionable moments and was subsequently chucked out the side. It's what LJ does with young players.

For all his talk of wanting a settled squad he'd rather bring in a loan or a free in order to avoid sticking with a young player who needs a run of games. The squad is bloated and it's his fault.

Ashley Williams being brought in, Marinovic over O'Leary, Rodri over Semenyo, Henriksen over Massengo. Benkovic over Moore.

I'm beginning to wonder how much he really cares about the pathway. 

this. why does lj have to get the toys out of the box before knowing if they are any good. the only 3 from January should have been wells as he was well up to speed with qpr.

the other 2 should have been on the bench and brought on for a run out or in case of an emergency.

 

as for taylor moore,he had the perfect mentor in Williams beside him, I don't get him going at all.

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13 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

In fairness to LJ on this point 

I have to say , in his shoes , under pressure for results , I’m not sure I would tbh , or at least not in those selection moments

Playing Devils advocate

Is there many on here who would pick a young player over a senior player if you felt that you were less likely to pick up points

playing devils advocate back, if you have multiple senior players, you never have to worry about picking the youngster!!! 😂

Even Lloyd Kelly , the most promising we’ve had cost us points through inexperience - it’s a reality of young players learning

Quite simply , IMHO they have to be good enough or show the signs of imminently becoming so if you are going to play them - No freebie points at this level.

I think it’s the ones who have shown their capable, that are then being loaned out and thusavoiding the issue ☹️

We are trying to ram a pathway into a plan whilst in a pretty brutal League

Ideally we would have commenced this plan years ago whilst in League One - and to a large degree we did out of necessity (And some decent talent) in Bobby , Joe etc but you wonder whether either would have had so many opportunities if they were coming through at 18/19 now , where we ciurrently sit

Like all fans there’s nothing better to see than a young player breaking through , but we can’t be playing players just because they are young

We have to actually decide what we are and what the realistic plan is 

Again in fairness to LJ , I felt that it was naive and unfair of SL or expect a top six , or improved finish if LJ was also expected to bring through young players at the same time 

I have to be fair that IMHO , in what I’ve seen of our younger choices I’m not sure I could criticise their amount of involvement

(My only thoughts of questionable decisions  would be I might have been tempted to bring Joe Morrell back , and play him , in January , and I found the use of Rodri off the bench above a chance to give Semenyo minutes, especially in games where we had the 3 points all but done,  baffling  )


Where Lee falls down IMHO is he firstly , he clearly jumped at the role and the ethos , but then sees that the realities of combining the pathway and promotion which he desperately craves for the Club , and himself 

Secondly he’s been allowed to divert from the pathway , (having the opinion that some of our younger choices arnt good enough , or at least ready ) and has been allowed to assemble a deep squad of established pros but is still not delivering at the top end.

I do think that if fans want top six finishes and a pathway , quite simply you have to have youngsters that are good enough
 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

The big worry is, with Cardiff and their Cat 1 Academy being so close, if we can’t show our best young players a decent pathway, you don’t have to think too hard where any good local talent goes, if they haven’t already been sapped up by Southampton.

That’s one of the pillars well and truly ******.

It’s a difficult blend - Not sure Cat 1 guarantees you much more but it’s a fair point

My main thought is (IMHO) you can’t just ram a pathway into a first team / side operating at this level 

You have to have youngsters who are good enough , so it becomes a chicken & egg situation

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11 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

It’s a difficult blend - Not sure Cat 1 guarantees you much more but it’s a fair point

My main thought is (IMHO) you can’t just ram a pathway into a first team / side operating at this level 

You have to have youngsters who are good enough , so it becomes a chicken & egg situation

Isn’t it the case that Cat 1 can just cherry pick from Cat 2 though and there’s not much you can do about, other than just accept the compo?

I’m beginning to think LJ isn’t buying into this sustainability model anywhere near as much as we originally expected.  How many times have we seem a number of players having less than perfect games, but it always seems to be the young ones getting hooked, even though there are far worse older players left on the pitch.  

It’s one thing if a young player is having a total mare and then you’re saving them getting their confidence shattered, but I’ve lost count of the times it’s happened to TM and we’ve often looked worse when he’s gone off.

I think it’s a Johnson thing, as his dad seemed to avoid using young players unless there’s absolutely no other alternative left to him.

I know football’s changed, but we’ve got a precedent with using young, home grown talent and Alan Dicks used that brilliantly and we all know where that got us!

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2 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

Isn’t it the case that Cat 1 can just cherry pick from Cat 2 though and there’s not much you can do about, other than just accept the compo?

I’m beginning to think LJ isn’t buying into this sustainability model anywhere near as much as we originally expected.  How many times have we seem a number of players having less than perfect games, but it always seems to be the young ones getting hooked, even though there are far worse older players left on the pitch.  

It’s one thing if a young player is having a total mare and then you’re saving them getting their confidence shattered, but I’ve lost count of the times it’s happened to TM and we’ve often looked worse when he’s gone off.

I think it’s a Johnson thing, as his dad seemed to avoid using young players unless there’s absolutely no other alternative left to him.

I know football’s changed, but we’ve got a precedent with using young, home grown talent and Alan Dicks used that brilliantly and we all know where that got us!

I don’t think for a moment he is Brizzle

However and I’ve got to stick up for him a bit , and be honest , as a Championship Manager , nor would I unless I had the suitable young players

One of our problems (IMHO) is we rarely put games to bed , ( and on the rare occasion we do or seem to (The latest example 3-0 up at home to Derby) we don’t secure it ) which minimises the opportunity to give a youngster 15-20 mins and integrate them that way .

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So has he 'found his level' in league one like last season when Southend fans pretty much said the same things as those Blackpool fans? 😂

I was a bit shocked when he was loaned out but thought it was good move if Moore wasn't going to play with us this season much.

I think it's too early to say Benkovic isn't good enough. He seems to have very good attributes.

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@BobBobSuperBob Fully agree with your point, of course it's easy for me to call for more academy players/youngsters when it isn't my job that is on the line.

Main point I occasionally try to make is that our squad is far too big and any hint of a gap that could/should easily be plugged by a youngster for a game (even a bench spot ie. Baldwin 3rd choice CB for a couple of games) gets immediately overcompensated for. 

Morrell could've played more than 1 league game last season, Pack clearly needed a rest.

Could Morrell or Walsh have stuck around this season rather than signing Nagy AND Massengo?

Marinovic needn't have been signed over O'Leary (Almost insulting).

Playing Rodri off the bench over Semenyo (despite the club knowing Rodri was going and that Semenyo "needed help confidence-wise" according to LJ).

 

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5 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

@BobBobSuperBob Fully agree with your point, of course it's easy for me to call for more academy players/youngsters when it isn't my job that is on the line.

Main point I occasionally try to make is that our squad is far too big and any hint of a gap that could/should easily be plugged by a youngster for a game (even a bench spot ie. Baldwin 3rd choice CB for a couple of games) gets immediately overcompensated for. 

Morrell could've played more than 1 league game last season, Pack clearly needed a rest.

Could Morrell or Walsh have stuck around this season rather than signing Nagy AND Massengo?

Marinovic needn't have been signed over O'Leary (Almost insulting).

Playing Rodri off the bench over Semenyo (despite the club knowing Rodri was going and that Semenyo "needed help confidence-wise" according to LJ).

 

Agree with all these 👍

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24 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I don’t think for a moment he is Brizzle

However and I’ve got to stick up for him a bit , and be honest , as a Championship Manager , nor would I unless I had the suitable young players

One of our problems (IMHO) is we rarely put games to bed , ( and on the rare occasion we do or seem to (The latest example 3-0 up at home to Derby) we don’t secure it ) which minimises the opportunity to give a youngster 15-20 mins and integrate them that way .

You’ve absolutely nailed it in your last paragraph Bob and is what really boils my piss.  This one of the reasons why I now want to see the back of LJ. He’s just so mega cautious.

We never hammer teams, because you can guarantee if we do get a comfortable lead and the opposition are on the ropes, instead of going for the kill, we then sit deep and invite them to put us under pressure, with the painfully familiar result.  We’ve got plenty of examples of us losing 3 goal leads for the same reason.  Our crap goal difference during his tenure is another good indicator.

So yes, what you say is completely true and when you put it that way, makes a lot of sense.  I think it’s also another very solid reason why LJ isn’t the man for the job in hand here if we want to bring our own talent through.  

If our young ones aren’t good enough on the other hand, we’ll never get anywhere near being sustainable.

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4 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

You’ve absolutely nailed it in your last paragraph Bob and is what really boils my piss.  This one of the reasons why I now want to see the back of LJ. He’s just so mega cautious.

We never hammer teams, because you can guarantee if we do get a comfortable lead and the opposition are on the ropes, instead of going for the kill, we then sit deep and invite them to put us under pressure, with the painfully familiar result.  We’ve got plenty of examples of us losing 3 goal leads for the same reason.  Our crap goal difference during his tenure is another good indicator.

So yes, what you say is completely true and when you put it that way, makes a lot of sense.  I think it’s also another very solid reason why LJ isn’t the man for the job in hand here if we want to bring our own talent through.  

If our young ones aren’t good enough on the other hand, we’ll never get anywhere near being sustainable.

Not sure how realistic constantly producing Championship players from an academy is  these days tbh, though you don’t have to produce many to make the academy itself profitable 

Interesting  that our constant comparison Brentford binned their academy and have a slightly different plan 

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2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Not sure how realistic constantly producing Championship players from an academy is  these days tbh, though you don’t have to produce many to make the academy itself profitable 

Interesting  that our constant comparison Brentford binned their academy and have a slightly different plan 

Didn’t know that about Brentford’s academy and that’s an interesting one.

If selling clubs start upping the transfer fees when Brentford come calling, the Bees could have themselves with a bit of a problem and could be over the proverbial barrel.

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2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Not sure how realistic constantly producing Championship players from an academy is  these days tbh, though you don’t have to produce many to make the academy itself profitable 

Interesting that our constant comparison Brentford binned their academy and have a slightly different plan 

London though innit, they've got no hope of picking up the best local talent. 

We've got a good number of very exciting youngsters coming through by the sound of things. Lots coming from North Bristol.

 

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2 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

It’s a difficult blend - Not sure Cat 1 guarantees you much more but it’s a fair point

My main thought is (IMHO) you can’t just ram a pathway into a first team / side operating at this level 

You have to have youngsters who are good enough , so it becomes a chicken & egg situation

just voted for the egg 😀

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1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Not sure how realistic constantly producing Championship players from an academy is  these days tbh, though you don’t have to produce many to make the academy itself profitable 

Interesting  that our constant comparison Brentford binned their academy and have a slightly different plan 

Asked @hodge the other day for his view on u23 football from a development point of view.  Interesting that Brentford’s B Team play a wide range of opposition, not just English team’s either.

1 hour ago, BrizzleRed said:

Didn’t know that about Brentford’s academy and that’s an interesting one.

If selling clubs start upping the transfer fees when Brentford come calling, the Bees could have themselves with a bit of a problem and could be over the proverbial barrel.

Their recruitment list is probably deep enough for it not to be a problem 😀

 

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6 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

I must admit, I couldn't see the logic in shunting Moore off on loan to a lower league side this season.

AFAIC he had proven he had Championship class, and was often pick of the defence when he played.

Other loans, I agreed with. TM not at all.

 

☝ What he said

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6 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

I must admit, I couldn't see the logic in shunting Moore off on loan to a lower league side this season.

AFAIC he had proven he had Championship class, and was often pick of the defence when he played.

Other loans, I agreed with. TM not at all.

 

In the meantime we accommodate Williams...

Ridiculous.

Bloke needs to move on to further his career...how sad is that.

Johnson the nurturing coach of young talent eh ??..copy book well & truly blotted...

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40 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Asked @hodge the other day for his view on u23 football from a development point of view.  Interesting that Brentford’s B Team play a wide range of opposition, not just English team’s either.

Their recruitment list is probably deep enough for it not to be a problem 😀

 

Would be interesting to know how competitive Brentfords B teams games are.  If they are a good standard, there is certainly some logic going that route.

You’re keeping all your squad members playing together, rather than loaned out all over the country, so can all be coached in the same playing philosophy, rather than that of the loan club.  Assumedly there would be less natural wastage, as with young academy players, who could be on the books for years, only to be eventually released when they don’t make the grade. 

The best case scenario is you’ve got a smaller squad, but all will generally be available for the 1st team when needed, or ‘oven ready’ as old Boris would say.  I’m guessing there must be way more to it than that, but would be brilliant if it was that simple.

 

As you say, Brentford definitely appear to have a very good supply of recruitable talent on tap at present, so will be interesting to see how that pans out long term.

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7 hours ago, Dullmoan Tone said:

Firstly he is not Bobby Moore style - much as I would like this to be true.

Secondly while Ashley Williams has made mistakes (more recently after a very long run) he has been mostly brilliant and his interceptions and positioning have been mostly superb.

I understand we want home grown talent but if an ageing Williams were to be injured, Baker is mostly this way and Kalas has really struggled this year - would we really have wanted Taylor Moore as our lynchpin - he needs more time. He has shown flashes of brilliance but also messed up more times than people seem to want to recall - I think it was him giving the ball away so cheaply against QPR on the half way line that caused Nagy's original injury (may be wrong here).

While results are rubbish this decision stacks up.

Let him make those mistakes, rather than someone else, though. It’s part of his development.

He’s out of the team and we’re still losing. The decision doesn’t stack up imo

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17 hours ago, bristolcitysweden said:

TM is not good enough and has never been. We are lucky not to have him here as we have enough of problems.

Thankyou our resident coaching expert?..............Off to the pub with you

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Moore is going to go one of two ways, either he'll stay here for a few more seasons and be sold for a massive price or we're going to stupidly offload him early only for him to go on to do amazing elsewhere and we'll regret it. 

The lad is big, strong, determined and can play football. He has a few rough edges but they'll iron out and he'll become a solid CB. 

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13 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

It’s a difficult blend - Not sure Cat 1 guarantees you much more but it’s a fair point

My main thought is (IMHO) you can’t just ram a pathway into a first team / side operating at this level 

You have to have youngsters who are good enough , so it becomes a chicken & egg situation

And when you find one that's good enough & then proves it in the first team,,tell him to get on 'ees bike & loan him to a struggling league one side ... That should do the trick....

Edited by Robert the bruce
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As much as I want Moore to blossom and prove himself a long-term foundation in a City back line - I viewed the most recent Blackpool highlights out of curiosity from their win on Tuesday against Bolton. The passage below jumped out why Johnson is still unconvinced on TM being a "top 6" Championship defender.

He was caught ball watching - enabling a completely free header from a League One striker. As Johnson has said, if you want to cement a place in a Bristol City line-up, as bare minimum you need to demonstrate yourself as the top 3 in your position in League One. Fingers crossed the remainder of the season he can continue to develop, and earn this accolade.

 

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1 hour ago, Red Zeppelin said:

As much as I want Moore to blossom and prove himself a long-term foundation in a City back line - I viewed the most recent Blackpool highlights out of curiosity from their win on Tuesday against Bolton. The passage below jumped out why Johnson is still unconvinced on TM being a "top 6" Championship defender.

He was caught ball watching - enabling a completely free header from a League One striker. As Johnson has said, if you want to cement a place in a Bristol City line-up, as bare minimum you need to demonstrate yourself as the top 3 in your position in League One. Fingers crossed the remainder of the season he can continue to develop, and earn this accolade.

 

He was MoM in that game.

 

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16 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

It’s a difficult blend - Not sure Cat 1 guarantees you much more but it’s a fair point

My main thought is (IMHO) you can’t just ram a pathway into a first team / side operating at this level 

You have to have youngsters who are good enough , so it becomes a chicken & egg situation

For me the problem is that LJ doesn't seem to be able to utilise the pathway. He panics if any young player makes a mistake such as Taylor Moore at Ipswich. And takes too long to forgive and forget.

This wasted season could have given Moore around 35/40 games with Morrell, Walsh and Vyner 20/25. Even O'Leary could have had another 20 although maybe for a keeper the level of play is not so important?

 

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2 hours ago, Red Zeppelin said:

As much as I want Moore to blossom and prove himself a long-term foundation in a City back line - I viewed the most recent Blackpool highlights out of curiosity from their win on Tuesday against Bolton. The passage below jumped out why Johnson is still unconvinced on TM being a "top 6" Championship defender.

He was caught ball watching - enabling a completely free header from a League One striker. As Johnson has said, if you want to cement a place in a Bristol City line-up, as bare minimum you need to demonstrate yourself as the top 3 in your position in League One. Fingers crossed the remainder of the season he can continue to develop, and earn this accolade.

 

So all the central defenders at City now, are performing so well?

I'd rather have Aden Baldwin in the side than Benkovic!

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16 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

So all the central defenders at City now, are performing so well?

I'd rather have Aden Baldwin in the side than Benkovic!

 

TBF it's a bit early to write off Benkovic.  

He'd played 30 minutes of 1st team football this season before joining us, but anyone who gets a cap for a team like Croatia, even for a friendly, must have something going for them. 

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29 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

TBF it's a bit early to write off Benkovic.  

He'd played 30 minutes of 1st team football this season before joining us, but anyone who gets a cap for a team like Croatia, even for a friendly, must have something going for them. 

I'm sure Benkovic is a quality central defender but if it takes him a couple of months to get match fit, what a waste of time and money. Should have kept Taylor Moore!

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3 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

I'm sure Benkovic is a quality central defender but if it takes him a couple of months to get match fit, what a waste of time and money. Should have kept Taylor Moore!

Agreed.

You could perhaps argue that a midfield signing was needed - although why someone who'd take ages to get fully fit was the choice made is another topic - but I didn't really see the necessity for Benko. Maybe the idea was he works out in this loan then signs from Leicester, where clearly he hasn't made the grade. "For the future" as Lee likes to say.

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