steviestevieneville Posted March 10, 2020 Report Share Posted March 10, 2020 4 hours ago, Delta said: Better to have won it 40 years ago than not at all. Well yes , but when you're constantly singing about it 40 years on it comes across pretty pathetic and just living in the past tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddoh Posted March 10, 2020 Report Share Posted March 10, 2020 3 hours ago, AnAstonVillafan said: I did say to a Bristol City fan who asked me about him that Baker averages about 1 head injury a month. Always sticking it in where it hurts. And yes Weimann does run around a lot and he is useless out wide. But he got one or two cracking goals for us, including when we beat Liverpool 3-1 at Anfield. His enthusiasm and work ethic stood out, I hope he improves for you guys. I think we have to improve for him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnAstonVillafan Posted March 10, 2020 Report Share Posted March 10, 2020 52 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said: Well yes , but when you're constantly singing about it 40 years on it comes across pretty pathetic and just living in the past tbh To be fair, it was quite an achivement. To go from the old Third Division to Champions of Europe in ten years is something you would constantly sing about. Leicester sing about 2016 and Forest sing about theirs too. I'm too young to remember it sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnAstonVillafan Posted March 10, 2020 Report Share Posted March 10, 2020 1 hour ago, The Original OTIB said: You Sir, are a Gentleman. Wish it was like the old days when players and fans knew their place. I remember seeing Dennis Mortimer turn out for Redditch in the eighties. No fuss or sense of entitlement (I lived near Cov at the time). Better days . . Good times. Cyrille Regis, Tony Daley and Jasper Carrott used to drive past me as I walked to school. But having said that I remember when we signed Stan Collymore and my fellow Villa fans were sure we were going to win the league as a consequence. Certain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviestevieneville Posted March 10, 2020 Report Share Posted March 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, AnAstonVillafan said: To be fair, it was quite an achivement. To go from the old Third Division to Champions of Europe in ten years is something you would constantly sing about. Leicester sing about 2016 and Forest sing about theirs too. I'm too young to remember it sadly. It was generally a great period for English football but singing about it 40 years on is cringeworthy for both you and forest even though forest was a remarkable achievement . Leicester winning the league was unreal and only a few years ago. I expect them to sing about it and so they should. what a lot of fans of other clubs take the piss about is delusion. yes you’re a big club to a point , but where you are in the pecking order means you’re not relevant when it comes to the current clubs challenging for Europe. One of your fans was on talkSPORT last night saying you should have poch in charge, utter delusion. the point in fact being that your on Bristol city’s forum rather than Liverpool or either mancs forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnAstonVillafan Posted March 10, 2020 Report Share Posted March 10, 2020 6 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said: It was generally a great period for English football but singing about it 40 years on is cringeworthy for both you and forest even though forest was a remarkable achievement . Leicester winning the league was unreal and only a few years ago. I expect them to sing about it and so they should. what a lot of fans of other clubs take the piss about is delusion. yes you’re a big club to a point , but where you are in the pecking order means you’re not relevant when it comes to the current clubs challenging for Europe. One of your fans was on talkSPORT last night saying you should have poch in charge, utter delusion. the point in fact being that your on Bristol city’s forum rather than Liverpool or either mancs forum. I'm not one who sings about 1982 but for anyone older than me it must hold great memories. I'm only here to defend the club and I work in Stroud with a few Bristol fans, a club I have respect for and I hope you get where you want to be soon. There seems to be a belief here that Aston Villa has done something wickedly wrong, or should be punished and I simply question this. Some say they want a level playing field but you'd need to explain to me what that looks like. Others say scrutiny but I've been looking at Villa's accounts for over 10 years. Some good, some bad. In this forum you are not going to know or understand everything. No one outside of Villa Park accounts dept will. We do have many fans who find it difficult to accept the new reality, I embrace it and I understand how and why we have fallen so far and some of the older folks don't get this. Some think we should sign a £20m striker in every transfer window. Others think we should extend Villa Park to a 60,000 capacity ground. The Poch thing is silly but I've heard worse. I had a fan in a Facebook group insisting we should have signed Danny Ings in January. We're virtually a Championship side now so i'd might as well be on Bristol's forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 10, 2020 Report Share Posted March 10, 2020 Happy to explain and maybe row back a little in my position, @AnAstonVillafan Part of the reason for extreme reactions was reading online reactions to it, a proportion of Aston Villa fans online seems to carry a certain arrogance. That's step one- that gets backs up. You seem fine and level headed though. Secondly, I think these actions are wrong verbatim- but especially when there have been 3 years of parachute payments too, it feels like a step beyond- those parachute payments are there to get a club back into line and restructure- not just you btw, any club, not to further the gap- think they need reform, not scrapping but reform. By level playing field, simply mean all clubs adhering to their respective loss limit without a need for exceptional transactions, ie stadium sale and leaseback, selling players for inflated amounts to related parties- if Nottingham Forest do this with Carvalho to Olympiakos that's one the EFL need to look at closely for example. Saw £15m mooted online...now he's a good player with room for growth but don't see him as that level. Then again, he might be worth a reasonable amount but not the amount apparently he's being linked for- off the back of last season yeah he's good but not worth £15m. Also a level playing field might be needed from an investigatory POV because Derby and Sheffield Wednesday have both been referred so a referral to an Independent Disciplinary Commission might be necessary so that justice seen to be done etc. Not the same as guilt of course but Investigation.Then again, on the Nottingham Forest point, Olympiakos have CL revenue, can't afford wages from higher Leagues- who can say that provided wages low they might not consider Carvalho that price- still too much though. It's the nature of the stadium sale and leaseback that I personally have a specific confusion/issue with tbh. Payable in the form of Loans Receivable seems a bit of an odd one to me...and without it Aston Villa would have failed FFP. I also am curious as to the HS2 revenue- not necessarily cost you understand, but the fact that it appeared in successive seasons, again may well be commercial but the fact that it was classed as Exceptional Operating Income and to me Exceptional Operating Income means something that is a one-off...but in 2 successive seasons. So I wonder about that from an FFP angle. The other point I make- though this could be a flaw in the regs- is that it's fine to class what seems to be HS2 twice, especially the 2nd year as exceptional income but to write off the payment to Lerner say as exceptional costs. Not saying you didn't have to pay Lerner but you see my problem with that bit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviestevieneville Posted March 10, 2020 Report Share Posted March 10, 2020 24 minutes ago, AnAstonVillafan said: I'm not one who sings about 1982 but for anyone older than me it must hold great memories. I'm only here to defend the club and I work in Stroud with a few Bristol fans, a club I have respect for and I hope you get where you want to be soon. There seems to be a belief here that Aston Villa has done something wickedly wrong, or should be punished and I simply question this. Some say they want a level playing field but you'd need to explain to me what that looks like. Others say scrutiny but I've been looking at Villa's accounts for over 10 years. Some good, some bad. In this forum you are not going to know or understand everything. No one outside of Villa Park accounts dept will. We do have many fans who find it difficult to accept the new reality, I embrace it and I understand how and why we have fallen so far and some of the older folks don't get this. Some think we should sign a £20m striker in every transfer window. Others think we should extend Villa Park to a 60,000 capacity ground. The Poch thing is silly but I've heard worse. I had a fan in a Facebook group insisting we should have signed Danny Ings in January. We're virtually a Championship side now so i'd might as well be on Bristol's forum. Well you seem pretty level headed to be honest. I get why some older fans might find it difficult to comprehend but footballs cyclical . You only have to look at Leeds , nearly 20 years outside the top flight. As regards ffp. To be honest I only understand the basics in our league . The gap in finances between the prem and the championship is a major issue as it filters down. There was a graph on here the other day showing wages. Top was stoke , spending £92m Bottom. Luton, Spending £6m Bottom 3 clubs currently , the same that came up. There’s far to many clubs , trying to hang onto the coat tails of the teams with parachute payments. While doing so , leaking money at a unsustainable rate for many. The only reason we’ve managed to hang around the top 8-10 is by selling about £70m worth of players to balance the books . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted March 11, 2020 Report Share Posted March 11, 2020 Swiss Ramble: there are 45 tweets showing a huge amount of stuff, plus you can see City’s position in the Champ finances too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 11, 2020 Report Share Posted March 11, 2020 Thanks Dave. Notice Swiss Ramble seems not to have factored in the HS2 compensation into calculations. Fact the wage bill and amortisation increased like that even in the final year of parachute payments, the sheer expenditure despite falling income- is reason for a lot of anger amongst the bulk of clubs IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted March 11, 2020 Report Share Posted March 11, 2020 4 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Thanks Dave. Notice Swiss Ramble seems not to have factored in the HS2 compensation into calculations. Fact the wage bill and amortisation increased like that even in the final year of parachute payments, the sheer expenditure despite falling income- is reason for a lot of anger amongst the bulk of clubs IMO. Sending this guy back to Chelsea for misconduct might help with the wage bill. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51832377 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 11, 2020 Report Share Posted March 11, 2020 18 minutes ago, Port Said Red said: Sending this guy back to Chelsea for misconduct might help with the wage bill. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51832377 It'd be interesting- not that we'd ever see them of course- to see their Projected Accounts this season. It's hard to call...on one hand, promotion is a huge spike in revenue, in a large sense via TV, and the exceptional costs will be gone...but OTOH so will the whole stadium sale and leaseback profit- HS2 income is another unknown factor. I'd argue that if both Years 1 and 2 are HS2 income, that it would be incorrect to class it as exceptional operating income and that Year 2 would/should be excluded from FFP calcs. Wages will surely have risen, but then promotion bonus won't be paid and one thing is for sure, amortisation absolutely will have risen. Whereas profit on disposal will have dropped! Suppose the easiest way to work out increase in amortisation cost will be total fee, then add up all the players signed on a permanent deal in terms of total length of contract, then work out the average- plus any players signed last January you double and divide by double for this January...ie 4.5 year deal you'd split by 9. Clearly departees will see some amortisation drop off if signed for a fee but it's surely shot up. One thing I will say though is that they seemed to get their accounts done extremely quickly! They were dated 2nd August, and given the Reporting record ended on May 31st 2019, that (by football standards) must be a bit of a record- so hats off for that at least! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta Posted March 11, 2020 Report Share Posted March 11, 2020 52 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: It'd be interesting- not that we'd ever see them of course- to see their Projected Accounts this season. It's hard to call...on one hand, promotion is a huge spike in revenue, in a large sense via TV, and the exceptional costs will be gone...but OTOH so will the whole stadium sale and leaseback profit- HS2 income is another unknown factor. I'd argue that if both Years 1 and 2 are HS2 income, that it would be incorrect to class it as exceptional operating income and that Year 2 would/should be excluded from FFP calcs. Wages will surely have risen, but then promotion bonus won't be paid and one thing is for sure, amortisation absolutely will have risen. Whereas profit on disposal will have dropped! Suppose the easiest way to work out increase in amortisation cost will be total fee, then add up all the players signed on a permanent deal in terms of total length of contract, then work out the average- plus any players signed last January you double and divide by double for this January...ie 4.5 year deal you'd split by 9. Clearly departees will see some amortisation drop off if signed for a fee but it's surely shot up. One thing I will say though is that they seemed to get their accounts done extremely quickly! They were dated 2nd August, and given the Reporting record ended on May 31st 2019, that (by football standards) must be a bit of a record- so hats off for that at least! The accounts are going to be fine for this year, probably breaking even or thereabouts. Revenue from home matches has probably increased between £300k - £500k per game, season ticket sales increased, merchandise sales will be up, sponsorship & advertising will have increased, the League cup run will have bought in money (I know the prize fund is small) I think another myth that has been created on here is that Villa are a rudderless ship with running costs that are out of control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 11, 2020 Report Share Posted March 11, 2020 12 minutes ago, Delta said: The accounts are going to be fine for this year, probably breaking even or thereabouts. Revenue from home matches has probably increased between £300k - £500k per game, season ticket sales increased, merchandise sales will be up, sponsorship & advertising will have increased, the League cup run will have bought in money (I know the prize fund is small) I think another myth that has been created on here is that Villa are a rudderless ship with running costs that are out of control. Saw some estimates on Villatalk I believe- will see if I can dig them out later, at least in terms of increased income. You reduce costs for Lerner and you reduce costs for promotion payments but you add in extra amortisation costs, and yes wages surely would rise.- you're right about the other revenues. I note you are silent on the HS2 bit- granted it's an unknown quantity but to class as exceptional operating income, it's a bit of a once off surely. Once yes, twice...dunno for FFP. Well without the stadium sale and the HS2 you would have been well over. Swiss Ramble's figures show this to be the case. Before Exceptional Items your costs shot up by £16m or thereabouts as per the NSWE UK accounts. In a year of declining revenue that's not out of control but it's quite something! Even after Exceptional Items, your Total Net Operating expenses shot up by £19m...flagrant disregard for FFP in some respects. The wage bill and amortisation rises show...now he're's a thought had the EFL managed to get through the ability to exclude profit from sale and leasebacks from the FFP figure during the season, that might have been an interesting convo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta Posted March 11, 2020 Report Share Posted March 11, 2020 I know this is difficult for you to comprehend but I'll try one last time - After that, you're on your own. We did not flagrantly disregard FFP. We complied with it. I'm not sure which part of this you are struggling with. We had the option of selling our major asset in order to strengthen the squad. We decided to exercise that option. Flagrant disregard would have occurred if we had signed players without the benefit of being able to sell the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 11, 2020 Report Share Posted March 11, 2020 Difficult for you to comprehend, but this may not be finished business. The EFL should've shut off the loophole during the season, that would have snookered a few sides- quite possibly yourselves included. In fact they should never have let it reopen in the first place- it is flagrant disregard in one respect and one respect only- other sides have a tendency when revenue declines to cut costs at least a bit, or bring in more in profit on PLAYER disposal. Or both. Look at Middlesbrough's accounts, no wonder Gibson is so irate- and as far as clubs doing this is concerned, he's in very good company. Clubs can make up regulations if 18/24 agree- just remember that. That lack of restraint will not be forgotten by the EFL or many aggrieved clubs. You should also read up on Saracens and their salary cap breach- some interesting things, not least that extra rules or regulations were brought in- voted on maybe- to increase their points deduction. Precedent in sporting law set? Or at least possible? Your revenue fell, your profit on player disposal fell..yet your wage bill PRE promotion bonuses rose, your cost of amortisation rose. Makes a mockery. Well done the PRL- well done the clubs, maybe the RFU!! You see, the risk was that Saracens might stay up at one point...so they just made sure they increased the deduction. Quote The Premiership and European champions received confirmation two weeks ago that they would be relegated at the end of this season and the after-shocks from their salary cap breaches continue to reverberate. Premiership Rugby released a statement on Tuesday confirming the additional sanction against Saracens, which would leave them on -77 points — after they were hit by a 35-point penalty back in November. This action by PRL followed a unanimous vote among their member clubs to make immediate, mid-season amendments to the salary cap regulations. The changes ensure that any club suspected of a breach will face a mid-season audit — and failure to comply will result in the deduction of 70 points, as in this case. By taking these emergency steps to tighten their regulations, PRL are ensuring that Saracens will go down after finishing bottom of the table — as they now cannot mathematically overhaul any of the rivals above them. It was revealed that the organisation have been in dialogue with the RFU, although the governing body have not taken any action themselves. It is a move designed to tidy up loose ends, but there is also a sense of making-it-up-as-they-go-along farce about the measures. Your revenue fell, your profit on player disposal fell..yet your wage bill PRE promotion bonuses rose, your cost of amortisation rose. Makes a mockery. Any thoughts on HS2? Second tranche should be excluded IMO, if that is what the "Exceptional Operating Income" indeed is. First lot is fine. Your stadium sale wouldn't have helped had you won the Carabao Cup and the 2nd batch of HS2 income may also have been looked at closely. This is with respect to UEFA rather than the PL/Championship. A key flaw in the regulations- if Infrastructure expenditure excluded, if exceptional costs such as Lerner excluded- I don't include more normal costs of promotion as clearly they should be excluded ie when you exclude player bonuses, fees due off the back of promotion etc, infrastructure based income and exceptional revenue should be too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta Posted March 11, 2020 Report Share Posted March 11, 2020 Pops please, for the umpteenth time, I am not interested in Saracens, I am not interested in UEFA and I'm not interested in any repealed EFL rules. I am only interested in the rules that we were obliged to adhere to. I doubt whether a "loophole" as you describe it could be shut mid-season as it would be open to challenge if a club had already planned around it. If it had have been implemented mid-season, it would almost certainly have only come into force for the following season onwards. Gibson can't compete - That's why he's unhappy. 20 odd yearts ago though, he was one of the biggest culprits and one of the first beneficiaries of a ground sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 11, 2020 Report Share Posted March 11, 2020 Well the UEFA regs would have become pertinent had you beat Man City but that is my main point there. I am praising the clubs and PRL, but more importantly it shows that it is possible to change sporting regulations and sanctions mid-season if you reach the required majority. That is what I am getting at. IF 18/24 clubs decided mid-season that this would be shut off or between August and January say, that is within the scope. If you don't like it, go and play in another League is my attitude- not just to Aston Villa but any club. 18/24 and I believe that the turnaround time is 30 days, but it might be longer- ie time between vote taking place and regulation being implemented. When did he sell the ground then? Given that this practice only counted towards it during 2016/17 and he has been railing against the sale and leaseback issue, I find that hard to believe. There were claims that he sold a tax loss under the old regs but I don't see any evidence of it on early evidence in their 2015/16 accounts. I see a tax credit but if that's what Mel Morris referred to then that's irrelevant for FFP anyway. Think he's an excellent owner and has always been fairly sticking to the regs, much like our own SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta Posted March 11, 2020 Report Share Posted March 11, 2020 Yeah, & if my Auntie had been a boy................... Gibson benefited back in the 90s - Not under FFP obviously but was still happy to ride along on the unfair sporting advantage it gave him - They even won their only 2 trophies for 50 odd years on the back of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1960maaan Posted March 11, 2020 Report Share Posted March 11, 2020 Sorry to sidetrack the thread a little (again), but if you ever wondered about their fan base, I give you one caller to talk sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted March 11, 2020 Report Share Posted March 11, 2020 15 minutes ago, 1960maaan said: Sorry to sidetrack the thread a little (again), but if you ever wondered about their fan base, I give you one caller to talk sport. He's confusing Aston Villa with Aston Martin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviestevieneville Posted March 11, 2020 Report Share Posted March 11, 2020 10 hours ago, Davefevs said: Swiss Ramble: there are 45 tweets showing a huge amount of stuff, plus you can see City’s position in the Champ finances too. For all we moan about the football (i do anyway) and obviously we won’t be doing this every year. It’s pretty impressive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviestevieneville Posted March 11, 2020 Report Share Posted March 11, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BanburyRed Posted March 11, 2020 Report Share Posted March 11, 2020 31 minutes ago, downendcity said: He's confusing Aston Villa with Aston Martin. Given their share price right at the minute, just about £2 vs £19 initial share offer, it pains me to say it but he'd be better off at Vile! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 12, 2020 Report Share Posted March 12, 2020 One other curiosity. Boleyn Ground ie Upton Park sold for £40m, but £60m when it was sold on by Galliard. Value of the land in Zone 3 of London vs Aston...I know it's not the whole story but there was about a 6-7k difference in capacity, I wonder if there are any interesting differentials here. Let alone Hillsborough and Pride Park! King Power- which has had PL football, gone up 2 divisions, won PL, played in CL- yes 6-7k smaller but valued at £43m in recent accounts, this using Depreciated Replacement Cost. Has naming rights too which as Ricoh Arena naming and non naming rights show can make a difference...Villa Park lacks this! Fair value for the Olympic Stadium appears to be £61m- because hearing the Price of Football Podcast made me interested again. https://www.queenelizabetholympicpark.co.uk/-/media/lldc/accounts/e20-accounts/e20-stadium-llp-audited-financial-statements-201718.ashx This hosts Concerts, this hosts Athletics, this hosts other events- in addition to the football. May even be calculating it wrong, may be £61,542,000 before a slight Impairment- seems to suggest zero due to football v athletics but if that's a temp thing then it's £61,542,000-£2,950,000=£58,592,000. One thing is for sure though, West Ham's rent appears to be well below Market Rate etc as we all know. Land Prices- not House but Land- would make for an interesting comparison here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOTBLUE Posted March 12, 2020 Report Share Posted March 12, 2020 Every time I hear ‘COVID 19’,I’m expecting it to be followed by Aston Villa 0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted March 12, 2020 Report Share Posted March 12, 2020 Today’s poll: Would you stop the season now and see (i) City miss out on a potential playoff place but (ii) Villa be relegated? 1.yes 2.yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnAstonVillafan Posted March 12, 2020 Report Share Posted March 12, 2020 8 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Today’s poll: Would you stop the season now and see (i) City miss out on a potential playoff place but (ii) Villa be relegated? 1.yes 2.yes You would give up a shot at promotion, just to see us go down ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitchurch1966 Posted March 12, 2020 Report Share Posted March 12, 2020 3 minutes ago, AnAstonVillafan said: You would give up a shot at promotion, just to see us go down ? Bit pointless really, we aren't going up and you are definitely coming down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnAstonVillafan Posted March 12, 2020 Report Share Posted March 12, 2020 9 minutes ago, Whitchurch1966 said: Bit pointless really, we aren't going up and you are definitely coming down. Have you ever been as close to Premier League football as you are today ? I can accept whats happening to us. There is a contingency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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