1999

[Clutton Caveman]

The other night I watched the final game of the 1999 season Man U v Spurs

Firstly it felt great to be watching football at all but as the game went on I was amazed at the lack of:

Time wasting

Diving and play acting

Kicking the ball away at every opportunity

Pointless keep posession, sideways passing

Injury time subs

Professional fouls

I did not realise how the spectacle of Premier League football had declinned so much in 20 years.

I don't want to hear "but the skill is so much better now" Check out the finish from Andy Cole amd how quickly the ball was moved.

It was great to see determined but fair tackling allowed by a good ref,the Strikers even with close physical attention were able to hold the ball up and express themselves probably because the first thought on their mind was not to get a free kick and a yellow card for the defender.

It was great to see a coach able to give a player a verbal rocket without then seeing 10 mins of sulking

I was truly shocked to realise how many bad things have crept into our game under the guise of "professionalism" and worse still to think that it could get worse.

 

[Fpcity]

2 minutes ago, Clutton Caveman said:

The other night I watched the final game of the 1999 season Man U v Spurs

Firstly it felt great to be watching football at all but as the game went on I was amazed at the lack of:

Time wasting

Diving and play acting

Kicking the ball away at every opportunity

Pointless keep posession, sideways passing

Injury time subs

Professional fouls

I did not realise how the spectacle of Premier League football had declinned so much in 20 years.

I don't want to hear "but the skill is so much better now" Check out the finish from Andy Cole amd how quickly the ball was moved.

It was great to see determined but fair tackling allowed by a good ref,the Strikers even with close physical attention were able to hold the ball up and express themselves probably because the first thought on their mind was not to get a free kick and a yellow card for the defender.

It was great to see a coach able to give a player a verbal rocket without then seeing 10 mins of sulking

I was truly shocked to realise how many bad things have crept into our game under the guise of "professionalism" and worse still to think that it could get worse.

 

I watched some of that. Football seemed a lot more exciting up to around 2010 but from 96-2006 was my favourite. 

I'd say there were a lot more better quality players back then, just look at the strikers that were playing 

[Big C]

Heard there was a lot of space in 1999 too

[Unan]

Thought this was about the Prince classic 

[redcityman]

17 minutes ago, Seneca the Younger said:

Thought this was about the Prince classic 

No, neigh nah.

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, Clutton Caveman said:

The other night I watched the final game of the 1999 season Man U v Spurs

Firstly it felt great to be watching football at all but as the game went on I was amazed at the lack of:

Time wasting

Diving and play acting

Kicking the ball away at every opportunity

Pointless keep posession, sideways passing

Injury time subs

Professional fouls

I did not realise how the spectacle of Premier League football had declinned so much in 20 years.

I don't want to hear "but the skill is so much better now" Check out the finish from Andy Cole amd how quickly the ball was moved.

It was great to see determined but fair tackling allowed by a good ref,the Strikers even with close physical attention were able to hold the ball up and express themselves probably because the first thought on their mind was not to get a free kick and a yellow card for the defender.

It was great to see a coach able to give a player a verbal rocket without then seeing 10 mins of sulking

I was truly shocked to realise how many bad things have crept into our game under the guise of "professionalism" and worse still to think that it could get worse.

 

It may be not be what you want to hear but players are more skilled now, the nature of modern football demands more flexibility, no possession is pointless and the increase in possession has led to longer ball rolling times - the ball in 1999 was in play a lot less.

In1999 Wimbledon (fair tackling?) were in the Premier league. A  lot of teams were going route one (4-4-2 v 4-4-2) with foul play and and intimidation of opponents being acceptable. 

Spectacle?

Football evolves. How we look at that is a perception. Its also possible to look at football in the UK as not being perfect but also as having significantly improved.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

It may be not be what you want to hear but players are more skilled now, the nature of modern football demands more flexibility, no possession is pointless and the increase in possession has led to longer ball rolling times - the ball in 1999 was in play a lot less.

In1999 Wimbledon (fair tackling?) were in the Premier league. A  lot of teams were going route one (4-4-2 v 4-4-2) with foul play and and intimidation of opponents being acceptable. 

Spectacle?

Football evolves. How we look at that is a perception. Its also possible to look at football in the UK as not being perfect but also as having significantly improved.

Don't forget, a lot more tactical sophistication too- of course you already touch on that but teams are a lot more organised now, maybe it's dipped a bit but certainly were for a long while. Compact, you know what I mean!

As you say, 4-4-2- quite fun in its way but quite basic too at times.

I'm a bit conflicted though- I get it, the increased technique as a whole, organisation, more compact, tactical sophistication yet variety- yet I also and looking not just UK, think that there were (could be a false memory?) think there were a lot more high calibre international sides around at tournaments e.g. Brazil, Argentina, Holland, Portugal, Italy to name 5 all seemed really strong 20 years ago- some of them are pretty good, some on the way back but not mega- France won the big two tournaments and looked fairly untouchable for a few years. Sadly was not the case with us- how times change, we're among the top sides now- then some second tier sides seemed pretty strong too, thinking Turkey and Sweden notably, possibly Denmark as well in periods.

Then again, has the gap decreased as familiarity and the changes to the game filtered through, and brought other lesser sides up through changes and tactics and maybe some top sides drop off a bit?

I don't know! Clearly football has improved in quite a few ways but in a few ways I wonder a bit.

Would also say that IMO from a pure football and depth yet condensed quality POV, Euro 2000 was better than Euro 96 IMO, that's disregarding the obvious excellence from our perspective of the latter.

[Dolman_Stand]

2 hours ago, paul_fox said:

I watched some of that. Football seemed a lot more exciting up to around 2010 but from 96-2006 was my favourite. 

I'd say there were a lot more better quality players back then, just look at the strikers that were playing 

 

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

It may be not be what you want to hear but players are more skilled now, the nature of modern football demands more flexibility, no possession is pointless and the increase in possession has led to longer ball rolling times - the ball in 1999 was in play a lot less.

In1999 Wimbledon (fair tackling?) were in the Premier league. A  lot of teams were going route one (4-4-2 v 4-4-2) with foul play and and intimidation of opponents being acceptable. 

Spectacle?

Football evolves. How we look at that is a perception. Its also possible to look at football in the UK as not being perfect but also as having significantly improved.

Your probably both right 96 to 08 is probably my favourite period of football too but a lot of that comes down to age as in those 10 years I went from being at school and first watching football with my dad to being go to a pub or a game with mates and experience that side of it to being young and free if responsibility. 

The England team we had at that time also went into a tournament with an expectation of success and it felt like every person in the country was watching every game no matter how pointless a qualifier it was. 

City then became a bit of a chore to watch after that Wembley defeat which never helped and although I would still go down the gate it became much less frequent,  it was only the double  winning season that revived my interest to be honest.

On the flip side that the quality is far higher across the board today but I agree the sportsmanship is infuriating.

[Mr Popodopolous]

45 minutes ago, Dolman_Stand said:

 

Your probably both right 96 to 08 is probably my favourite period of football too but a lot of that comes down to age as in those 10 years I went from being at school and first watching football with my dad to being go to a pub or a game with mates and experience that side of it to being young and free if responsibility. 

The England team we had at that time also went into a tournament with an expectation of success and it felt like every person in the country was watching every game no matter how pointless a qualifier it was. 

City then became a bit of a chore to watch after that Wembley defeat which never helped and although I would still go down the gate it became much less frequent,  it was only the double  winning season that revived my interest to be honest.

On the flip side that the quality is far higher across the board today but I agree the sportsmanship is infuriating.

Interesting- I'd argue that maybe only once in that time (don't fully remember Euro 96) was it justified.

Each to their own but I was never fully sure at the time about the media hype- we had some very good players, but best in the world always felt a bit overdone to me- plus at that time, English high tempo in hot summer tournaments...bit of a disadvantage.

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Don't forget, a lot more tactical sophistication too- of course you already touch on that but teams are a lot more organised now, maybe it's dipped a bit but certainly were for a long while. Compact, you know what I mean!

As you say, 4-4-2- quite fun in its way but quite basic too at times.

I'm a bit conflicted though- I get it, the increased technique as a whole, organisation, more compact, tactical sophistication yet variety- yet I also and looking not just UK, think that there were (could be a false memory?) think there were a lot more high calibre international sides around at tournaments e.g. Brazil, Argentina, Holland, Portugal, Italy to name 5 all seemed really strong 20 years ago- some of them are pretty good, some on the way back but not mega- France won the big two tournaments and looked fairly untouchable for a few years. Sadly was not the case with us- how times change, we're among the top sides now- then some second tier sides seemed pretty strong too, thinking Turkey and Sweden notably, possibly Denmark as well in periods.

Then again, has the gap decreased as familiarity and the changes to the game filtered through, and brought other lesser sides up through changes and tactics and maybe some top sides drop off a bit?

I don't know! Clearly football has improved in quite a few ways but in a few ways I wonder a bit.

Would also say that IMO from a pure football and depth yet condensed quality POV, Euro 2000 was better than Euro 96 IMO, that's disregarding the obvious excellence from our perspective of the latter.

The top nations remain top nations but there has been a levelling out. Players play in high standard global leagues - Belgiums top players do not play in Belgium.

Coaching and development has become universal 

Fitness levels are dramatically higher than 1999. Twenty years ago players running six miles a game were considered athletic. That is youth level now. Some U13 kids do five miles in seventy minute games.

These standards are norms across football. Can't do get left totally behind.

[Dolman_Stand]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Interesting- I'd argue that maybe only once in that time (don't fully remember Euro 96) was it justified.

Each to their own but I was never fully sure at the time about the media hype- we had some very good players, but best in the world always felt a bit overdone to me- plus at that time, English high tempo in hot summer tournaments...bit of a disadvantage.

I was only 10 in 1996 so barely knew who our players were let alone who were favourites but from 2002 to 2006 it felt like a matter of time until we won a big tournament. In Euro 2004 I still think to this day we would have won the whole thing if Rooney hadn't got injured in that Portugal QF and once you win one it can snowball as it did with France and Spain.

Since Sven got hounded out this team under Southgate is the most exciting and with the extra years delay I think we have a real shot next summer

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, Dolman_Stand said:

I was only 10 in 1996 so barely knew who our players were let alone who were favourites but from 2002 to 2006 it felt like a matter of time until we won a big tournament. In Euro 2004 I still think to this day we would have won the whole thing if Rooney hadn't got injured in that Portugal QF and once you win one it can snowball as it did with France and Spain.

Since Sven got hounded out this team under Southgate is the most exciting and with the extra years delay I think we have a real shot next summer

Yeah true- 2004 was the one for me- not saying it would have been easy but riding the crest of the wave, the Rooney inspired wave- just have to wonder what happens if he remains fit vs Portugal and here on in, as you say. Think Italy might still have won in 2006 but we'll never know- 2004 though we had some real momentum!

Definitely we do. Think it's a pretty strong field but no untouchables like say Spain were for a number of years, certainly wouldn't be easy but we certainly have a fair chance IMO!

[054123]

On 08/04/2020 at 16:03, Clutton Caveman said:

I don't want to hear "but the skill is so much better now" Check out the finish from Andy Cole amd how quickly the ball was moved.

This kind of nonsense pisses me off no end. 
 

Like when sky try to convince you that foreign players have made English football better, because British clubs didn’t dominate in Europe from the mid 60s through to the mid 80s?

[Chairman Mao]

Andy Cole was an underrated player. Excellent record at Man Utd, won everything, yet no one really talks about him. In that 1999 Cole and Yorke were gravy. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 09/04/2020 at 21:58, 054123 said:

This kind of nonsense pisses me off no end. 
 

Like when sky try to convince you that foreign players have made English football better, because British clubs didn’t dominate in Europe from the mid 60s through to the mid 80s?

Mid 60s to mid 80s isn't quite right. Ajax won 3 on the bounce for a start, Bayern won stuff, definitely there was a period of dominance though, mid 70's to mid 80's having looked at the finals and given one or max 2 qualified then. 

You also neglect to mention how desperate English clubs were largely in European football in the early to mid 1990s. Think things had evolved somewhat while we were banned. 

Clearly the Sky line is a simplistic and misleading one. However did foreign influence not improve certain things?

Thinking managers largely and exposure eg to different training regimes and dietary/nutrition plans. Has also been the case quite often that the foreign market has offered equivalent if not better value than UK. Think the English player premium which isn't always necessary justified. 

Let's put it this way though. Wipe away a lot of the foreign trends of the last 20-30 years.

If clubs were still in early to mid 1990s training regimes, still with traditional 4-4-2 (attack, 2 full backs,  2 wingers, 2 strikers, 2 CBs and 2 CMs), largely quite linear, straight line and just a few foreign players.

Well the performance in Europe would really plummet. The novelty factor might push it on for a bit bit tactically and technically it'd soon be overcome by many.

[054123]

8 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Mid 60s to mid 80s isn't quite right. Ajax won 3 on the bounce for a start, Bayern won stuff, definitely there was a period of dominance though, mid 70's to mid 80's having looked at the finals and given one or max 2 qualified then. 

You also neglect to mention how desperate English clubs were largely in European football in the early to mid 1990s. Think things had evolved somewhat while we were banned. 

Clearly the Sky line is a simplistic and misleading one. However did foreign influence not improve certain things?

Thinking managers largely and exposure eg to different training regimes and dietary/nutrition plans. Has also been the case quite often that the foreign market has offered equivalent if not better value than UK. Think the English player premium which isn't always necessary justified. 

Let's put it this way though. Wipe away a lot of the foreign trends of the last 20-30 years.

If clubs were still in early to mid 1990s training regimes, still with traditional 4-4-2 (attack, 2 full backs,  2 wingers, 2 strikers, 2 CBs and 2 CMs), largely quite linear, straight line and just a few foreign players.

Well the performance in Europe would really plummet. The novelty factor might push it on for a bit bit tactically and technically it'd soon be overcome by many.

That’s certainly an opinion 

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, 054123 said:

That’s certainly an opinion 

Interested in your take.

Alternate history of the English game with a hell of a lot less foreign influence? Both domestically, and internationally ie in European club competition.

One thing's for sure, mid 1960s to mid 1980s dominance, it's tenuous as far as claims go. It's arguably factually wrong in fact, but to say two decades of dominance- it's tenuous.

[Mr Popodopolous]

**** it. Sufficiently bored to do 20 years worth of finals from mid 1960s to final year up to Heysel:

European Cup:

1. 1965-66 Real Madrid 2 Partizan 1
2. 1966-67 Celtic 2 Inter 1
3. 1967-68 Man Utd 4 Benfica 1
4. 1968-69 AC Milan 4 Ajax 1
5. 1969-70 Feyenoord 2 Celtic 1
6. 1970-71 Ajax 2 Panathinaikos 0
7. 1971-72 Ajax 2 Inter 0
8. 1972-73 Ajax 1 Juventus 0
9. 1973-74 Bayern 4 Atletico 0 (REPLAY)
10. 1974-75 Bayern 2 Leeds 0
11. 1975-76 Bayern 1 St Etienne 0
12. 1976-77 Liverpool 3 Borussia Monchengladbach 1
13. 1977-78 Liverpool 1 Club Brugge 0
14. 1978-79 Nottingham Forest 1 Malmo 0
15. 1979-89 Nottingham Forest 1 Hamburg 0
16. 1980-81 Liverpool 1 Real Madrid 0
17. 1981-82 Aston Villa 1 Bayern 0
18. 1982-83 Hamburg 1 Juventus 0
19. 1983-84 Liverpool 1 Roma 1 (Liverpool win on penalties)
20. 1984-85 Juventus 1 Liverpool 0

UEFA Cup- Began in 1971-72:

1. 1971-72 Tottenham v Wolves- Tottenam win 3-2 on aggregate.
2. 1972-73 Liverpool v Borussia Monchengladbach- Liverpool win 3-2 on aggregate.
3. 1973-74 Feyenoord v Tottenham- Feyenoord win 4-2 on aggregate.
4. 1974-75 Borussia Monchengladbach v Twente- Borussia Monchengladbach win 5-1 on aggregate.
5. 1975-76 Liverpool v Club Brugge- Liverpool win 4-3 on aggregate.
6. 1976-77 Juventus v Athletic Bilbao- Juventus win on away goals.
7. 1977-78 PSV v Bastia- PSV win 3-0 on aggregate.
8. 1978-79 Borussia Monchengladbach v Red Star Belgrade- Borussia Monchengladbach win 2-1 on aggregate.
9. 1979-89 Eintracht Frankfurt v Borussia Monchengladbach- Eintracht Frankfurt win on away goals.
10. 1980-81 Ipswich Town v AZ Alkmaar- Ipswich Town win 5-4 on aggregate.
11. 1981-82 Gothenburg v Hamburg- Gothenburg win 4-0 on aggregate.
12. 1982-83 Anderlecht v Benfica- Anderlecht win 2-1 on aggregate.
13. 1983-84 Tottenham v Anderlecht- Tottenham win on penalties.
14. 1984-85 Real Madrid v Videoton- Real Madrid win 3-1 on aggregate.

UEFA Cup Winners Cup:

1. 1965-66 Borussia Dortmund 2 v Liverpool 1
2. 1966-67 Bayern 1 v Rangers 0
3. 1967-68 AC Milan 2 v Hamburg 1
4. 1968-69 Slovan Bratislava 3 v Barcelona 2
5. 1969-70 Man City 2 v Gornik Zabrze 1
6. 1970-71 Chelsea 2 v Real Madrid 1 (REPLAY)
7. 1971-72 Rangers 3 v Dynamo Moscow 2
8. 1972-73 AC Milan 1 v Leeds United 0
9. 1973-74 Magdeburg 2 v AC Milan 0
10. 1974-75 Dynamo Kiev 2 v Ferencvaros 1
11. 1975-76 Anderlecht 4 v West Ham 2
12. 1976-77 Hamburg 2 v Anderlecht 0
13. 1977-78 Anderlecht 4 v Austria Vienna 0
14. 1978-79 Barcelona 4 v Fortuna Dusseldorf 3
15. 1979-89 Valencia 0 v Arsenal 0 (Valencia win on penalties)
16. 1980-81 Dinamo Tblisi 2 v Carl Zeiss Jena 1
17. 1981-82 Barcelona 2 v Standard Liege 1
18. 1982-83 Aberdeen 2 v Real Madrid 1
19. 1983-84 Juventus 2 v Porto 1
20. 1984-85 Everton 3 v Rapid Vienna 1

@054123 Your claims of 2 decades of dominance are suspect at best. I calculate 15 out of 54 won in that time. Don't get me wrong it ain't bad but dominance? Don't see it!

Not quite fake news but it's puffed up a bit.

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 08/04/2020 at 16:03, Clutton Caveman said:

The other night I watched the final game of the 1999 season Man U v Spurs

Firstly it felt great to be watching football at all but as the game went on I was amazed at the lack of:

Time wasting

Diving and play acting

Kicking the ball away at every opportunity

Pointless keep posession, sideways passing

Injury time subs

Professional fouls

I did not realise how the spectacle of Premier League football had declinned so much in 20 years.

I don't want to hear "but the skill is so much better now" Check out the finish from Andy Cole amd how quickly the ball was moved.

It was great to see determined but fair tackling allowed by a good ref,the Strikers even with close physical attention were able to hold the ball up and express themselves probably because the first thought on their mind was not to get a free kick and a yellow card for the defender.

It was great to see a coach able to give a player a verbal rocket without then seeing 10 mins of sulking

I was truly shocked to realise how many bad things have crept into our game under the guise of "professionalism" and worse still to think that it could get worse.

 

You have to make compromises to succeed in European football.

Would you kindly check our record for the first decade after Heysel? Not the best! Not the worst either but certainly not the best.

[Miah Dennehy]

Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

[054123]

7 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

**** it. Sufficiently bored to do 20 years worth of finals from mid 1960s to final year up to Heysel:

European Cup:

1. 1965-66 Real Madrid 2 Partizan 1
2. 1966-67 Celtic 2 Inter 1
3. 1967-68 Man Utd 4 Benfica 1
4. 1968-69 AC Milan 4 Ajax 1
5. 1969-70 Feyenoord 2 Celtic 1
6. 1970-71 Ajax 2 Panathinaikos 0
7. 1971-72 Ajax 2 Inter 0
8. 1972-73 Ajax 1 Juventus 0
9. 1973-74 Bayern 4 Atletico 0 (REPLAY)
10. 1974-75 Bayern 2 Leeds 0
11. 1975-76 Bayern 1 St Etienne 0
12. 1976-77 Liverpool 3 Borussia Monchengladbach 1
13. 1977-78 Liverpool 1 Club Brugge 0
14. 1978-79 Nottingham Forest 1 Malmo 0
15. 1979-89 Nottingham Forest 1 Hamburg 0
16. 1980-81 Liverpool 1 Real Madrid 0
17. 1981-82 Aston Villa 1 Bayern 0
18. 1982-83 Hamburg 1 Juventus 0
19. 1983-84 Liverpool 1 Roma 1 (Liverpool win on penalties)
20. 1984-85 Juventus 1 Liverpool 0

UEFA Cup- Began in 1971-72:

1. 1971-72 Tottenham v Wolves- Tottenam win 3-2 on aggregate.
2. 1972-73 Liverpool v Borussia Monchengladbach- Liverpool win 3-2 on aggregate.
3. 1973-74 Feyenoord v Tottenham- Feyenoord win 4-2 on aggregate.
4. 1974-75 Borussia Monchengladbach v Twente- Borussia Monchengladbach win 5-1 on aggregate.
5. 1975-76 Liverpool v Club Brugge- Liverpool win 4-3 on aggregate.
6. 1976-77 Juventus v Athletic Bilbao- Juventus win on away goals.
7. 1977-78 PSV v Bastia- PSV win 3-0 on aggregate.
8. 1978-79 Borussia Monchengladbach v Red Star Belgrade- Borussia Monchengladbach win 2-1 on aggregate.
9. 1979-89 Eintracht Frankfurt v Borussia Monchengladbach- Eintracht Frankfurt win on away goals.
10. 1980-81 Ipswich Town v AZ Alkmaar- Ipswich Town win 5-4 on aggregate.
11. 1981-82 Gothenburg v Hamburg- Gothenburg win 4-0 on aggregate.
12. 1982-83 Anderlecht v Benfica- Anderlecht win 2-1 on aggregate.
13. 1983-84 Tottenham v Anderlecht- Tottenham win on penalties.
14. 1984-85 Real Madrid v Videoton- Real Madrid win 3-1 on aggregate.

UEFA Cup Winners Cup:

1. 1965-66 Borussia Dortmund 2 v Liverpool 1
2. 1966-67 Bayern 1 v Rangers 0
3. 1967-68 AC Milan 2 v Hamburg 1
4. 1968-69 Slovan Bratislava 3 v Barcelona 2
5. 1969-70 Man City 2 v Gornik Zabrze 1
6. 1970-71 Chelsea 2 v Real Madrid 1 (REPLAY)
7. 1971-72 Rangers 3 v Dynamo Moscow 2
8. 1972-73 AC Milan 1 v Leeds United 0
9. 1973-74 Magdeburg 2 v AC Milan 0
10. 1974-75 Dynamo Kiev 2 v Ferencvaros 1
11. 1975-76 Anderlecht 4 v West Ham 2
12. 1976-77 Hamburg 2 v Anderlecht 0
13. 1977-78 Anderlecht 4 v Austria Vienna 0
14. 1978-79 Barcelona 4 v Fortuna Dusseldorf 3
15. 1979-89 Valencia 0 v Arsenal 0 (Valencia win on penalties)
16. 1980-81 Dinamo Tblisi 2 v Carl Zeiss Jena 1
17. 1981-82 Barcelona 2 v Standard Liege 1
18. 1982-83 Aberdeen 2 v Real Madrid 1
19. 1983-84 Juventus 2 v Porto 1
20. 1984-85 Everton 3 v Rapid Vienna 1

@054123 Your claims of 2 decades of dominance are suspect at best. I calculate 15 out of 54 won in that time. Don't get me wrong it ain't bad but dominance? Don't see it!

Not quite fake news but it's puffed up a bit.

I’m glad I helped

The stars are really interesting and I think I’ll need you to recount, but what your saying is during this period the major European countries were represents the following number of times in major finals?

24 England

14 Germany

10 Spain

8 Italy

9 Netherlands 

I’m about to help the children eat an imperial ton of chocolate, so please check my counting skills

For the record, I was initially going to say British clubs as that’s how I feel, but felt that would have been picked apart. If I would have done so that would have put the total to 29!

You would have needed to (crap counting to be confirmed!) combine Germany, Italy and Spain to be it. In fact you need to do that to beat the English total, but I agree that’s stretching the point some what!
 

Fake news? You’re right, it’s not.

Puffed up? Subjective certainly. 

Dominant? I think your struggling to say that’s not fair. In fact I’d happily stand by it.

[054123]

8 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

**** it. Sufficiently bored to do 20 years worth of finals from mid 1960s to final year up to Heysel:

European Cup:

1. 1965-66 Real Madrid 2 Partizan 1
2. 1966-67 Celtic 2 Inter 1
3. 1967-68 Man Utd 4 Benfica 1
4. 1968-69 AC Milan 4 Ajax 1
5. 1969-70 Feyenoord 2 Celtic 1
6. 1970-71 Ajax 2 Panathinaikos 0
7. 1971-72 Ajax 2 Inter 0
8. 1972-73 Ajax 1 Juventus 0
9. 1973-74 Bayern 4 Atletico 0 (REPLAY)
10. 1974-75 Bayern 2 Leeds 0
11. 1975-76 Bayern 1 St Etienne 0
12. 1976-77 Liverpool 3 Borussia Monchengladbach 1
13. 1977-78 Liverpool 1 Club Brugge 0
14. 1978-79 Nottingham Forest 1 Malmo 0
15. 1979-89 Nottingham Forest 1 Hamburg 0
16. 1980-81 Liverpool 1 Real Madrid 0
17. 1981-82 Aston Villa 1 Bayern 0
18. 1982-83 Hamburg 1 Juventus 0
19. 1983-84 Liverpool 1 Roma 1 (Liverpool win on penalties)
20. 1984-85 Juventus 1 Liverpool 0

UEFA Cup- Began in 1971-72:

1. 1971-72 Tottenham v Wolves- Tottenam win 3-2 on aggregate.
2. 1972-73 Liverpool v Borussia Monchengladbach- Liverpool win 3-2 on aggregate.
3. 1973-74 Feyenoord v Tottenham- Feyenoord win 4-2 on aggregate.
4. 1974-75 Borussia Monchengladbach v Twente- Borussia Monchengladbach win 5-1 on aggregate.
5. 1975-76 Liverpool v Club Brugge- Liverpool win 4-3 on aggregate.
6. 1976-77 Juventus v Athletic Bilbao- Juventus win on away goals.
7. 1977-78 PSV v Bastia- PSV win 3-0 on aggregate.
8. 1978-79 Borussia Monchengladbach v Red Star Belgrade- Borussia Monchengladbach win 2-1 on aggregate.
9. 1979-89 Eintracht Frankfurt v Borussia Monchengladbach- Eintracht Frankfurt win on away goals.
10. 1980-81 Ipswich Town v AZ Alkmaar- Ipswich Town win 5-4 on aggregate.
11. 1981-82 Gothenburg v Hamburg- Gothenburg win 4-0 on aggregate.
12. 1982-83 Anderlecht v Benfica- Anderlecht win 2-1 on aggregate.
13. 1983-84 Tottenham v Anderlecht- Tottenham win on penalties.
14. 1984-85 Real Madrid v Videoton- Real Madrid win 3-1 on aggregate.

UEFA Cup Winners Cup:

1. 1965-66 Borussia Dortmund 2 v Liverpool 1
2. 1966-67 Bayern 1 v Rangers 0
3. 1967-68 AC Milan 2 v Hamburg 1
4. 1968-69 Slovan Bratislava 3 v Barcelona 2
5. 1969-70 Man City 2 v Gornik Zabrze 1
6. 1970-71 Chelsea 2 v Real Madrid 1 (REPLAY)
7. 1971-72 Rangers 3 v Dynamo Moscow 2
8. 1972-73 AC Milan 1 v Leeds United 0
9. 1973-74 Magdeburg 2 v AC Milan 0
10. 1974-75 Dynamo Kiev 2 v Ferencvaros 1
11. 1975-76 Anderlecht 4 v West Ham 2
12. 1976-77 Hamburg 2 v Anderlecht 0
13. 1977-78 Anderlecht 4 v Austria Vienna 0
14. 1978-79 Barcelona 4 v Fortuna Dusseldorf 3
15. 1979-89 Valencia 0 v Arsenal 0 (Valencia win on penalties)
16. 1980-81 Dinamo Tblisi 2 v Carl Zeiss Jena 1
17. 1981-82 Barcelona 2 v Standard Liege 1
18. 1982-83 Aberdeen 2 v Real Madrid 1
19. 1983-84 Juventus 2 v Porto 1
20. 1984-85 Everton 3 v Rapid Vienna 1

@054123 Your claims of 2 decades of dominance are suspect at best. I calculate 15 out of 54 won in that time. Don't get me wrong it ain't bad but dominance? Don't see it!

Not quite fake news but it's puffed up a bit.

 

1 hour ago, 054123 said:

I’m glad I helped

The stars are really interesting and I think I’ll need you to recount, but what your saying is during this period the major European countries were represents the following number of times in major finals?

24 England

14 Germany

10 Spain

8 Italy

9 Netherlands 

I’m about to help the children eat an imperial ton of chocolate, so please check my counting skills

For the record, I was initially going to say British clubs as that’s how I feel, but felt that would have been picked apart. If I would have done so that would have put the total to 29!

You would have needed to (crap counting to be confirmed!) combine Germany, Italy and Spain to be it. In fact you need to do that to beat the English total, but I agree that’s stretching the point some what!
 

Fake news? You’re right, it’s not.

Puffed up? Subjective certainly. 

Dominant? I think your struggling to say that’s not fair. In fact I’d happily stand by it.

On average England were represented in a European final  1.2 times every year for this 20 years, British club 1.45 times! The next best Germany come out at 0.7, Spain at only 0.5!

We can always get the thesaurus out and find a different word for dominant

[Mr Popodopolous]

 Here's an interesting article- will get onto the other points tomorrow but an interesting article on F365, giving arguments why football was better here (and some examples from Europe) in past eras.

Few on this thread might be interested. Headline is just about Keane v Vieira era but overall an interesting piece.

https://www.football365.com/news/john-nicholson-modern-football-better-roy-keane-patrick-vieira

What I would say is it did feel more visceral then- when it really clicks now, the modern press, quick passing and quick possession it can be great but how often is it always?

[Tinmans Love Child]

On 08/04/2020 at 17:22, Cowshed said:

It may be not be what you want to hear but players are more skilled now, the nature of modern football demands more flexibility, no possession is pointless and the increase in possession has led to longer ball rolling times - the ball in 1999 was in play a lot less.

In1999 Wimbledon (fair tackling?) were in the Premier league. A  lot of teams were going route one (4-4-2 v 4-4-2) with foul play and and intimidation of opponents being acceptable. 

Spectacle?

Football evolves. How we look at that is a perception. Its also possible to look at football in the UK as not being perfect but also as having significantly improved.

It may well be more technical and flexible and all the rest of it, but for me it doesn’t equate to being ‘better’ for me the football fan in terms of entertainment etc which I guess is what the original post is about.  Football on the pitch is not better now for me, I preferred the harder tackling, the swashbuckling ‘tactics’, the complete lack of play acting and diving, the honesty.  That may well be me having rose tinted specs on but I don’t buy into the theory that because football is technically more mature now that it’s superior, as at its heard football is a simple game and always will be.

[Cowshed]

8 hours ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

It may well be more technical and flexible and all the rest of it, but for me it doesn’t equate to being ‘better’ for me the football fan in terms of entertainment etc which I guess is what the original post is about.  Football on the pitch is not better now for me, I preferred the harder tackling, the swashbuckling ‘tactics’, the complete lack of play acting and diving, the honesty.  That may well be me having rose tinted specs on but I don’t buy into the theory that because football is technically more mature now that it’s superior, as at its heard football is a simple game and always will be.

Yes I said better is a perception.

Were the likes of Wimbledon honest? The reducer was an accepted part of football, but it was not honest. Players were allowed several fouls prior to a booking, it was not honest. You could tackle from behind. it was not honest. I played semi pro and I will admit I was not an honest player as the ball frequently In challenges was not the target, and the team intent and expectation was to leave a mark on opponents.

That game no longer exists. My view is that the game now is superior to that. Players now are not fitter, far more technical, tactical and professional. 

[stephenkibby.]

That maybe right, but just accept the fact that some of us preferred to watch the way football was played then.

[Simon79]

On 10/04/2020 at 12:03, Chairman Mao said:

Andy Cole was an underrated player. Excellent record at Man Utd, won everything, yet no one really talks about him. In that 1999 Cole and Yorke were gravy. 

Possibly the best ‘ partnership ‘  up front there has been imo. Possibly rivalled by Henry & Bergkamp. But none the less, right up there. I use to love watching those 2, it was almost telepathic. COYR 

[ballwinningcentrehalf]

For me, the late 90's to mid-2000's was the perfect blend of old school football personality with newer school modern techniques.

Nowadays you have have everything invested into creating teams that are ultra-fit, ultra-coached, ultra-professional - but the game back then had more of the stuff I loved. To use an example, look at the old Manchester United v Arsenal/Roy Keane v Patrick Vieira contests. Fantastically talented footballers that still had to display aggression and strength. 

I respect what today's teams and players can do, but seeing sides filled with robots running for 90 minutes without breaking a sweat, while not being allowed to tackle an opponent isn't in my eyes 'better'.

 

[Cowshed]

33 minutes ago, stephenkibby. said:

That maybe right, but just accept the fact that some of us preferred to watch the way football was played then.

I posted previously that football evolves and how view that is a perception. I preferred watching football from the past due to the crowds however others views will be that was football dark ages. 

Football is evolving again. It appears that it may becoming less possession based and more athletic. The next generation of players fitness levels are on an altogether different level. It is also possible that football may become even more chess like as training methods advance further, neuroscience in sport is a means of training that is becoming more common.

How we will view that? 

[Lanterne Rouge]

2 hours ago, Cowshed said:

I posted previously that football evolves and how view that is a perception. I preferred watching football from the past due to the crowds however others views will be that was football dark ages. 

Football is evolving again. It appears that it may becoming less possession based and more athletic. The next generation of players fitness levels are on an altogether different level. It is also possible that football may become even more chess like as training methods advance further, neuroscience in sport is a means of training that is becoming more common.

How we will view that? 

The answer will depend a lot on the age of the person being asked I should think. A lot of us older supporters will feel a lot more `detached` from the game, younger ones maybe not so much. There`s a lot to be said for the view that the era that got you into loving football defines your opinions of those that came after it - early 70s was my `time` and nothing I`ve seen since matches that period for excitement and entertainment, both on and off the pitch.