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Getting Real


Bat Fastard
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1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

Look, it’s all been done to death.

One side (very few) want to give SL & Ashton a free pass because of Covid, deliberately omitting the fact it was here well before we sacked LJ & that the Talksport interview says the complete opposite of what we are about to do.

Small time, uninspiring, controlling, lacking in ambition. Making exactly the same mistake we did with Millen.

Is that a response you approve of?

Ambition can be very expensive and we have to compete against teams with parachute payments who are insulated from the covid issues to some extent.  Do you really think that the potential reduction or loss of crowds, income and sponsorship will not impact the business??

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36 minutes ago, Fjmcity said:

I don’t know, although you seem to. Care to share?

my post doesn’t really relate to who is appointed anyway, only tries to point out the frothing madness of some posters rage 

There’s one thing posting c%4p which we have all done in the past. . However asking fellow posters to undertake yet another questioner on here say is a bit below us and immature 

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1 hour ago, Red Army 75 said:

I’ve never really  questioned it before. But are we starting to see SL putting more into the rugby as he sees the better opportunity for success. 

Until we see the accounts, we have no idea and these things will change from year to year. They had a new training ground just completed and ours will come a few months later.  We can only look at City and the plans to build our squad and club. Just look at the facilities and all the costs, which will generate cash for all parts of Bristol Sport after the plague has passed.

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12 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

Interesting theme beginning to take shape here.  

The Bears get the flagship stand in what used to be our stadium devoted to them.  They get top end Lam to manage them and we get bargain basement Holden.  They get  high end players, while it sounds like we’ll be picking up scraps this year.

It seems that either we are becoming the poor relation in Bristol Sport, or this virus is very selective in what sport it effects in the Bristol area.

Salary cap in rugby is being chopped and players have taken pay cuts already so far as i'm aware, so there is certainly a difference, the difference being you would probably be hard pushed to run a competitive L1 team with the rugby budget.

Charles Piatau allegedly world highest earner = Dan Bentley's salary.

Lansdown gets his ego stroked for far less via rugby thats a simple fact.

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4 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

I was concerned at the sacking of Lee, but we don't know what is happening behind the scenes. He clearly felt unable to trust young players in his quest for a play off spot and may well have been bitching about selling his best players at inconvenient times - especially in light of the key injuries. Now water under the bridge, but the baying mob of fans have had their wishes satisfied. Whether this helps of hinders the cause remains to be seen.

So you just ignore all reasonable responses that you can't spin into your way of thinking then right?? I asked you a couple of questions a few posts ago but I guess you had no way to spin it so ignored it. Your now trying to spin the sacking of LJ away from the financial argument you have been peddling since this began and now it's because he was unable to trust young players. Fact is we not long ago resigned LJ on a 5 year deal, we have now sacked him and had to pay him off all while spouting dreams of the next level and fresh faces, then suddenly after all that we remember those pesky finances and resort to what looks like moving up the number 2 failure after LJ, into the number 1 spot and giving him a clean slate instead of binning him off too. 

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1 hour ago, KeepUpLino said:

Is this the other part to SL’s master plan? Get rid of all the passionate old School fans, the ones who actually give a **** and don’t except all the ******* bullshit and replace them with happy clapping lemmings like you? I’m seriously done with all this bollocks, City can **** off for all I care... The football club I grew up to passionately love is dead!!

We all have a passion for the club and are frustrated by the situation we find ourselves in. Much of this is beyond our control and the board are trying to achieve the best outcome that will please the fans. Sometimes we just have to be patient for a bit longer than we would wish.  The lemmings are the ones who would crash the club and put us into points deductions and other punishments by not running things properly.

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1 hour ago, Bat Fastard said:

It has become clear that there may be a very difficult set of financial circumstances facing our club and others in our division. Our own @MrPopodopolous has set out these concerns very well in a different thread. 

Our squad is in need of supplementation and there will be comings and goings as usual, but our ambitions will be tempered by financial constraints.

Our strength in the youth department gives cause for optimism and it seems that the board have decided to double down on our original strategy of developing youth - both for sale and to build the first team.  The new additions reported in the Bristol Post show that the efforts to leverage the youth policy will effectively be put on steroids.

Our new head coach has the advantage of being very well known and is obviously admired by the board, players and others in the club.  What he may lack in experience can be made up by his knowledge of the club and players and willingness to adhere to our corporate strategy. He also fits in with the budget and is the continuity candidate because a new experienced manager may well have wanted to make very expensive changes to playing squad, staff and modus operandi. Everything the board appear to have decided so far looks sound and logical from the perspective of what is best for our long term interests and gets us over the, hopefully, short term financial obstacles.

Given all this, maybe it is about time for the fans to be rather more understanding of the owner and board and to come to terms with the fact that we are living in unprecedented times and we will need to make wise and prudent decisions to benefit in the long run. Give the plans a chance to work by boosting them with your total support. Bury the negatives because we are not able to do much to change the landscape in which we have to operate. 

Try being supporters rather than antagonistic critics. This does not apply to all - but there are some who need to consider this carefully. Just get real!

 

TBH, I can appreciate all of the points you've made and they are reasoned through and I tend to agree, however...

The bottom line as to what everyone is pissed off about is the setting of expectation. One minute, we appeared to be going for it, the next, all stop. The whole 'interview process' seems somewhat hollow and contrived now. It could have been dealt with in two weeks.

Assuming that the news is correct and DH is in the hot seat, the club need to start rebuilding the relationship with fans (I'm normally quite a placid sort of guy but this past five weeks has been a debacle, and some). Cut out the spin (I am not interested in corporate BS, I have to deal with at work day in, day out. Football is my chance to get away from it) and tell people why the decisions have been made and be open.

If the club wants to be contemptuous towards fans, that is their prerogative, however they will then have the difficulties of rebuilding the broken relationships damaged with some of the fan base, and anyone knows that customer relations (that appears to be the way they view fans) will tell you, that's a pretty hard thing to do - for football fans that can be as simple as results and promotion.

What I can see this coming season is, the teams that come down from the Premiership will bounce straight back. The reason? All the other clubs in the Championship will be managing their finances prudently (well those who have sensible management will be), and the teams dropping down will have the benefit of parachute payments.

As Colin said when he joined Middlesborough: "At least I've got eight games without being booed by anybody..."
DH will also have some respite at the beginning of the season while he figures out how to make things to work for BCFC... and let's hope that he does.

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Taking a different angle. Many City fans also look forward to uncertain times and have had a chance to review priorities and spending targets.

I think that SL will be shocked when season ticket holders are again offered TV access in lieu of attending the game instead of a refund.

Last season I accepted this offer. This year considering our obvious lack of ambition and incredibly poor communication from the club over the last 5-6 weeks I certianly will not. 

Money in the bank is equally important for fans as it is for the club.

As a long loyal fan I have never felt more taken for granted.

If you want to watch the pennies why make promises that you have no intention of keeping.

 

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1 minute ago, bcfcfinker said:

TBH, I can appreciate all of the points you've made and they are reasoned through and I tend to agree, however...

The bottom line as to what everyone is pissed off about is the setting of expectation. One minute, we appeared to be going for it, the next, all stop. The whole 'interview process' seems somewhat hollow and contrived now. It could have been dealt with in two weeks.

Assuming that the news is correct and DH is in the hot seat, the club need to start rebuilding the relationship with fans (I'm normally quite a placid sort of guy but this past five weeks has been a debacle, and some). Cut out the spin (I am not interested in corporate BS, I have to deal with at work day in, day out. Football is my chance to get away from it) and tell people why the decisions have been made and be open.

If the club wants to be contemptuous towards fans, that is their prerogative, however they will then have the difficulties of rebuilding the broken relationships damaged with some of the fan base, and anyone knows that customer relations (that appears to be the way they view fans) will tell you, that's a pretty hard thing to do - for football fans that can be as simple as results and promotion.

What I can see this coming season is, the teams that come down from the Premiership will bounce straight back. The reason? All the other clubs in the Championship will be managing their finances prudently (well those who have sensible management will be), and the teams dropping down will have the benefit of parachute payments.

As Colin said when he joined Middlesborough: "At least I've got eight games without being booed by anybody..."
DH will also have some respite at the beginning of the season while he figures out how to make things to work for BCFC... and let's hope that he does.

I. Agree on all of the above except dean is in the hot seat ? What hot seat ? He’s not the HC and it has not been made public that he is.

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1 minute ago, City oz said:

I. Agree on all of the above except dean is in the hot seat ? What hot seat ? He’s not the HC and it has not been made public that he is.

I put a caveat in: "Assuming that the news is correct..."

I am of the opinion, it's hard to separate the BS and rumour from the truth. It's entirely possible that the club has being selling us and the presss a merry dance and will be pulling the rabbit out of the hat. But then again....

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1 minute ago, bcfcfinker said:

TBH, I can appreciate all of the points you've made and they are reasoned through and I tend to agree, however...

The bottom line as to what everyone is pissed off about is the setting of expectation. One minute, we appeared to be going for it, the next, all stop. The whole 'interview process' seems somewhat hollow and contrived now. It could have been dealt with in two weeks.

Assuming that the news is correct and DH is in the hot seat, the club need to start rebuilding the relationship with fans (I'm normally quite a placid sort of guy but this past five weeks has been a debacle, and some). Cut out the spin (I am not interested in corporate BS, I have to deal with at work day in, day out. Football is my chance to get away from it) and tell people why the decisions have been made and be open.

If the club wants to be contemptuous towards fans, that is their prerogative, however they will then have the difficulties of rebuilding the broken relationships damaged with some of the fan base, and anyone knows that customer relations (that appears to be the way they view fans) will tell you, that's a pretty hard thing to do - for football fans that can be as simple as results and promotion.

What I can see this coming season is, the teams that come down from the Premiership will bounce straight back. The reason? All the other clubs in the Championship will be managing their finances prudently (well those who have sensible management will be), and the teams dropping down will have the benefit of parachute payments.

As Colin said when he joined Middlesborough: "At least I've got eight games without being booed by anybody..."
DH will also have some respite at the beginning of the season while he figures out how to make things to work for BCFC... and let's hope that he does.

You may well be right in your assessment of the upcoming season but there is no contempt from the board who are facing a huge tangle of competing problems and it seems likely that the more they examine the mess confronting them the more options appear. Of course the narrative from them will develop and we cannot expect definitive answers all the time. We have to look past the frustrations that we have, because I'm sure they are frustrated as well. They will come out and try to explain and some on here will by sympathetic and others will be rude and insulting.  Such are the difficulties of running a football club.  Think of the uproar if they put the club into financial difficulties and we were relegated due to a points deduction by following the very wishes of many fans on this forum.

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1 minute ago, bcfcfinker said:

I put a caveat in: "Assuming that the news is correct..."

I am of the opinion, it's hard to separate the BS and rumour from the truth. It's entirely possible that the club has being selling us and the presss a merry dance and will be pulling the rabbit out of the hat. But then again....

Can you forward the link that confirms the appointment 

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10 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

Maybe control is better in the hands of those who know all the facts and have a full understanding of the problems the club faces. None of us really know anything - let alone the motivation of the directors. We know that they will want the very best for Bristol City because huge investment and reputations are at stake. They know this.

There's plenty we do know, you can for example go and look at the accounts and get a picture of what's going on financially.  You can also look at what income is available in the premier league.

You know the timeline from awful performances through firing LJ to where we are now.  You know which managers are out of work.

Fans should be questioning and holding the custodians of the club to account not making up excuses for them, they have that covered.

Motivations aren't that simple.  People have many motivations and they compete, people lie to themselves about their own motivations and are only rarely capable of objectivity.  "The good of the club" is most certainly not the only thing at play here, you'd be very naive to believe that.

Lansdown's record on managerial appointments is pretty abysmal, I think there's reason enough going all the way back to his casting vote in favour of Pulis to question his judgement there. 

Ashton has done reasonably well at getting decent prices for players we've sold.  His communication with fans has been terrible and he's completely screwed up a number of incoming transfers.

There are solid reasons to be exceptionally sceptical of this situation and if they do appoint Holden he will be starting from the worst position with respect to fans' tolerance I can recall.  That alone is enough to make it a bad appointment.

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2 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

You may well be right in your assessment of the upcoming season but there is no contempt from the board who are facing a huge tangle of competing problems and it seems likely that the more they examine the mess confronting them the more options appear. Of course the narrative from them will develop and we cannot expect definitive answers all the time. We have to look past the frustrations that we have, because I'm sure they are frustrated as well. They will come out and try to explain and some on here will by sympathetic and others will be rude and insulting.  Such are the difficulties of running a football club.  Think of the uproar if they put the club into financial difficulties and we were relegated due to a points deduction by following the very wishes of many fans on this forum.

you don’t half talk a lot for a man with his tongue permanently attached to Lansdown’s boot mind. 

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18 minutes ago, pillred said:

So in your opinion the last 3 managers have been appointed because they were the best person for the job and not a cheaper option? I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

In the opinion of SL.

I disagreed with Cotts at the time, but he got us up and then SL got rid at the right time to be fair

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2 hours ago, Bat Fastard said:

Very good! I thought it was time to try to summarise the situation and to try (for the umpteenth time) to outline the fact that the board are running the club in a thoughtful and measured fashion, even if some on here cannot see it. The problems may well be profound to football, and we have to survive and thrive. The board are seeing to the real problems.

Good post and I agree with most except the HC has yet to be appointed.

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6 minutes ago, Riaz said:

In the opinion of SL.

I disagreed with Cotts at the time, but he got us up and then SL got rid at the right time to be fair

The point I was picking up on is that our managerial choices have not matched the stated ambitions of the club and are certainly not the ones that most fans would have wanted if being the most important part of the jigsaw money was not a deciding factor.

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1 hour ago, collier said:

Guess the billionaire chairman only has access to our financial situation for a 5 to 6 week period then yes? Seeing as only a short while ago he himself talked about the next step and getting someone in to push us to the next level. Bit short sighted of him to interview when he wasn't aware of the financial ramifications within our club don't you think? Surely you would think he had access to this info before he had the interview yes? Perhaps enlighten us as to why you think he said what he said without all the facts at hand? 

I think I have covered that in other answers.

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1 hour ago, Nibor said:

The reason the club have spent a month farting around and then seemingly arrived at the conclusion that the best man available for the job was the inexperienced underling of the one they fired is nothing to do with money and everything to do with protecting the Ashton's complete control over the squad and Lansdown's desire to continually interfere with the first team.

Nail. On. Head.

 

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4 minutes ago, pillred said:

The point I was picking up on is that our managerial choices have not matched the stated ambitions of the club and are certainly not the ones that most fans would have wanted if being the most important part of the jigsaw money was not a deciding factor.

What fans want is totally irrelevant. Last time the fans wanted Monk ffs!

Just because we dont go for the biggest name - that does not mean we lack ambition. Quite often the biggest names arent neccessarily the best managers/head coach out there.

And how much you really saving on the so called cheap option?  a million quid over a year? With the potential gains and losses from success and failure taken into account, its not cost effective to go for the money saving option.

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Since Christmas it felt that LJ’s time was coming to an end and the poor re-start to the season hastened what, by then, had become the inevitable. At that time, like many fans, I was full of expectation regarding a new manager/head coach, and especially when likely candidates’ names started to appear. Accordingly, the thought that we may revert to LJ’s assistant is disappointing and a little frustrating.

However, as the OP alluded to, and others have also commented, we are in unprecedented times and the outlook for football, and football finances, is as uncertain as at any time I can remember. Some make mention of SL’s comments on Talksport and that if the club has changed tack on the appointment due to financial issues, then surely SL would have known that at the time.

There’s an old saying that a week is a long time in politics. It could equally be said that 6 weeks is a long time in covid-19 world. At the time of LJ’s sacking the season had only just restarted, but with no fans, and we were out of lockdown. The government furlough scheme was in operation, shops and stores had just opened/were about to re-open and we were waiting on pubs and restaurants re-opening.

Since then, we have seen lockdown re-imposed on Leicester, and now Preston, with about another 20 towns and Cities on a watch list and second spikes emerging in major European countries and quarantine requirements introduced for travellers from some countries. The consequences of these events , and what might be just around the corner are not certain, although it seems pretty certain that there will be a major recession, especially as more people lose jobs once they come off furlough and as businesses struggle in the aftermath of the pandemic.

With Mark Ashton on the EFL board and with SL’s knowledge of the financial world and economics, it might just be that over the last 6 weeks it has become ever clearer  to them that football, and football’s finances in particular, will be a lot different than they envisaged even 6 weeks’ ago. 

Some have commented that if this is the case then we should have stuck with LJ as we would have avoided having to pay his compensation, but going by the almost vitriolic comments on here I can’t see how anyone can sensibly suggest that, even with hindsight, as we were going backwards in footballing terms and it was becoming increasingly clear that our younger players ( academy and purchased) were not getting much of a look in with LJ.

I wonder whether the issue is not just around salaries ( i.e. Holden being the “cheaper” option) but more to do with playing budgets, in terms of player wages and transfer fees? Much of our strategy has been built on bringing in players with potential so that at theirs’ or the club’s choice, they can be sold but for a profit. Is it the case that MA & SL force a re-setting in the transfer market, so that fees will be much reduced from those that would have been expected in the past? If so, and if someone like CH wanted to make major changes to the squad, not only might it have been unaffordable on our existing budget, but without being to obtain the same level of fees for departing players it would become impossible to afford.

Financial concerns might mean having to work with the current squad for some time and of this is the case, then it could be argued that Holden is best placed to do this as he knows the players and particularly their potential if used properly. Other candidates might not have been prepared to accept the financial realities and were not prepared to keep the present squad in situ.

Sl was heavily criticised, if not derided, on here when he introduced the 5 pillars, which became the sustainability strategy, with many suggesting that it was just an excuse for him not having to put his hand in his pocket. As it has turned out, his foresight means we are probably better placed than many to weather the storm that is going to hit football in the near future. It has certainly meant we have avoided stadium sales and points deductions. 

Accordingly, if appointing Holden ( which has yet to be confirmed !) was based on financial realities then it might be that the club’s owner knows better than all us fans what is coming over the horizon.

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1 hour ago, tin said:

With respect to the OP, I'm not buying into that at all. Just stop and think for a second about the funds going out to pay compo or gardening leave to sack LJ and JMc, hire two new coaches (salaries and compo to the FA), pay rise for the latest novice coach. To me, that sets us for a return to L1 rather than the PL. They need to stop the lies about promotion to the PL. It won't wash with anyone anymore under this setup. 

It's all about SL delusion of trying to make Bristol Sport like Barcelona. What he fails to see is that FCB is owned by around 180,000 patrons, who elect a club president every six years to represent them. FCB is the polar opposite of corporate ownership. The supporters matter to them, but not to our board. 

You can see the irony with SL calling the shots, surrounding himself with yes men, so that as and when a decent talent comes onto our books, Trashton can cash in so that uncle Steve gets return on investment. The best ROI for him would be to get to the PL - the £185m instant payout, the potential parachute payments - and this is not the best way to go about it. 

Does SL not realise internal appointments at Barcelona - like Pep Guardiola or Luis Enrique - work to varying degrees because they have played at the highest levels, under the best coaches and therefore know the standards they need to reach? This rich tradition is why promoting novices from within works for FCB, and is flawed for us.

Well we do not start from where Barcelona are but from where Bristol City finds itself at this moment in time.  the constraints of the FFP rules and the financial uncertainties caused by covid have to be addressed. They cannot simply be ignored because some fans don't like the "lack of ambition".  We have a plan, a budget and ambition and the board will try to do their best in the circumstances. We will see in a couple of years if they made wise decisions or not. A range of possibilities exist - promotion (difficult against parachute payments) consolidated in upper part of the league (great if we have embedded a new generation of young players) - or relegation if all you guys are right.  I think the latter is unlikely because by managing the finances we may well be much stronger than many other teams as we come out of the shadow of covid.

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39 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

We all have a passion for the club and are frustrated by the situation we find ourselves in. Much of this is beyond our control and the board are trying to achieve the best outcome that will please the fans. Sometimes we just have to be patient for a bit longer than we would wish.  The lemmings are the ones who would crash the club and put us into points deductions and other punishments by not running things properly.

Literally nobody is suggesting we do this. 

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46 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

If money is so tight it isnt because eoff covid

Its because of ashtons scatter gun approach to transfers

You’ve got to include LJ in that.  If he didn’t have final say, he was happy to put up with it for 4.5 seasons.  I’d have walked if it were me.

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27 minutes ago, Nibor said:

There's plenty we do know, you can for example go and look at the accounts and get a picture of what's going on financially.  You can also look at what income is available in the premier league.

You know the timeline from awful performances through firing LJ to where we are now.  You know which managers are out of work.

Fans should be questioning and holding the custodians of the club to account not making up excuses for them, they have that covered.

Motivations aren't that simple.  People have many motivations and they compete, people lie to themselves about their own motivations and are only rarely capable of objectivity.  "The good of the club" is most certainly not the only thing at play here, you'd be very naive to believe that.

Lansdown's record on managerial appointments is pretty abysmal, I think there's reason enough going all the way back to his casting vote in favour of Pulis to question his judgement there. 

Ashton has done reasonably well at getting decent prices for players we've sold.  His communication with fans has been terrible and he's completely screwed up a number of incoming transfers.

There are solid reasons to be exceptionally sceptical of this situation and if they do appoint Holden he will be starting from the worst position with respect to fans' tolerance I can recall.  That alone is enough to make it a bad appointment.

I can feel your frustration coming through but should point out that accounts are a picture of what has happened and not what will happen.  Projections made over recent times may have been binned and revised time after time as the issues and ramifications become clear.  I would not be surprised if SLs own investments were not reduced in value by a large amount and his dividend income may be a fraction of what it was. He is further constrained by FFP and the unfair parachute payments. Of course promotion would solve many problems but it may not be likely in the current circumstances - and we must get real about that. The blame game is not terribly helpful because it is backward looking. We have to look forward and the board have to find a way through all the obstacles. Hopefully they will clarify as much as they are able to soon.

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I think all of this talking about the financial implications only work if offered a binary choice of Hughton or Holden, but we know that is not the case, there are plenty of managers out there who have a CV far, far in excess of Holden that are not Chris Hughton, we have managers like Ryan Lowe who would absolutely not be demanding the salary or control that Hughton would be and had a managerial CV far, far ahead of Holden, Sitchie Wellens the same, jesus Sol Campbell is a better prospect than Holden.

Football is a business of relatively fixed costs and incomes, so we will have known exactly what was going out and not coming in, so i do not buy that anything has changed in that respect since removing Johnson, if anything the fact that test events have been given the go ahead with the likely resumption of some fans being able to attend games in October, if anything the picture has improved from when we sacked Johnson, so again I do not buy for one second that we have appointed Holden due to money. 

We have given him the job because Mark Ashton and SL genuinely believe he is the best man for the job and that is ******* terrifying. 

 

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40 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

We all have a passion for the club and are frustrated by the situation we find ourselves in. Much of this is beyond our control and the board are trying to achieve the best outcome that will please the fans. Sometimes we just have to be patient for a bit longer than we would wish.  The lemmings are the ones who would crash the club and put us into points deductions and other punishments by not running things properly.

Just because it is beyond our control does not mean we have to become apologists for Lansdown and the Board. And further how you keep harping on about cost constraints when we are paying off Johnson and taking on two England coaches to bail out Holden is clearly not a concern for Lansdown. Only of course when it suits him.

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1 hour ago, City oz said:

Have I missed something. Has DH been offered the job after all or am i still in some kind of night mare 

BP suggesting he has. There is a famous poster on here who will not believe anything until it is on the official site. His followers and admirers (of which there are many) consider him to be wise!

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