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1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

Last year of his contract, highly unlikely that he will get another unless there is a drastic improvement in his availability record.

Even then as a top five earner it is doubtful that he is cost effective.

You have to ask yourself whether you can bring in someone better for the same wages first!

1 hour ago, mozo said:

Yeah agreed. His wage could be used more widely.

According to Kid he’s on £17k per week.

Just ignoring injuries for the moment., he had a decent season just gone.

18/19 he had to play second fiddle to Kalas and Webster.

In 17/18, he had a decent season too, Flint got lots of plaudits, but I still think Flint is a selfish CB, focused on his game only, everyone else to fit in with what he does, including the RB playing so narrow, because of Flint’s lack of pace on the turn, or Wright having to play LCB.  Flint was decent, but not as good as people thought.

6517F7F4-5907-470A-8AE9-BCDA7B0E047D.thumb.jpeg.cf3f21d156816a9be62caea8c5b64a9f.jpeg

Generally he has played a good chunk of games each season. 17/18 contained a 3 game suspension too.

The question marks are more the injuries in game, rather than injuries keeping him from being selected...which are bloody frustrating.

As it stands he is more than likely first choice LCB in a 3, unless Holden suddenly plumps for Vyner and Moore either side of Kalas.

If we bring someone in who’s better then we can review Baker’s contract situation.  If Holden believes he is his main man at LCB he should be looking to tie him down beyond next summer.

Its a leap of faith to be confident you can get better than Baker for less money....unless going down the loan route.  Clarke and Guehi have been sorted, looks like Kipre is off to West Brom. 

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38 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

"Every game" is a dumb comment.

His "availability record" is actually very good. How many games has he actually missed through injury? I can't find any definitive information either way but considering he made 33 starts last season in the league and 34 2 seasons ago (one in between was 8 but we had webster and kalas) I dont think his availability is an issue.

I also recall you posting you couldn't remember the last time he'd completed 90 minutes just a couple of days after his 10th successive 90 minutes.

Define "horrendous" ? Went off 3 times with injury last season in 33 starts, 2 "tactical" subs and 28 full 90s

Season before he had 8 full 90s out of 12 starts, but we were lucky to have Webster and Kalas available almost all season.

17/18 had 34 starts and went off early twice.

So yes, it seems like NB picks up the occasional knock in a game that he can't shake off but from what I can see and remember doesn't spend lengthy periods out injured (happy to be proved wrong). He puts his body on the line, it's enivitble that he'll pick up knocks, I prefer that to shirking a challenge.

All that said, I think we can upgrade and improve as his distribution isn't the best. He's a very good defender but he is limited, I just think it's ridiculous that we have this discussion every time he picks up a knock. 

Top post this! I'll only add that imo people quickly forget he was our best central defender last season and for me was only second to Fam for our player of the season. Genuinely think he's one of the best centre defenders in the league. Obviously several are much better on the ball but as a pure defender I think he's right up there. It's crazy talk imo to look to move him on and renewing his contract would be one of my top priorities if I was DH. 

We do need another LCB to challenge / as back up this window but for me that would be in addition to Baker not as a direct replacement.

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

You have to ask yourself whether you can bring in someone better for the same wages first!

According to Kid he’s on £17k per week.

Just ignoring injuries for the moment., he had a decent season just gone.

18/19 he had to play second fiddle to Kalas and Webster.

In 17/18, he had a decent season too, Flint got lots of plaudits, but I still think Flint is a selfish CB, focused on his game only, everyone else to fit in with what he does, including the RB playing so narrow, because of Flint’s lack of pace on the turn, or Wright having to play LCB.  Flint was decent, but not as good as people thought.

6517F7F4-5907-470A-8AE9-BCDA7B0E047D.thumb.jpeg.cf3f21d156816a9be62caea8c5b64a9f.jpeg

Generally he has played a good chunk of games each season. 17/18 contained a 3 game suspension too.

The question marks are more the injuries in game, rather than injuries keeping him from being selected...which are bloody frustrating.

As it stands he is more than likely first choice LCB in a 3, unless Holden suddenly plumps for Vyner and Moore either side of Kalas.

If we bring someone in who’s better then we can review Baker’s contract situation.  If Holden believes he is his main man at LCB he should be looking to tie him down beyond next summer.

Its a leap of faith to be confident you can get better than Baker for less money....unless going down the loan route.  Clarke and Guehi have been sorted, looks like Kipre is off to West Brom. 

Agree with all that you say Fevs but I think next year is time to bring in a successor, and all transfers are a leap of faith.

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31 minutes ago, BCFC Richard said:

You could do some kind of pay as you play deal at the end of his contract (not sure he'd go for that though). Good defender just not fit consistently enough. 

As above, this is incorrect. He’s nearly always available

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It does make me wonder if the two new coaches are also sussing out some of our players who are physically not up to the task of playing a full season without breaking down 

NB is a 100% player who gives his all but all too often picks up injuries that others don’t pick up and misses far to many games and this has been the case throughout his career 

Perhaps they need to look at his defensive technique and body positioning because quite clearly he picks up too many injuries for a CB

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55 minutes ago, mozo said:

Agree with all that you say Fevs but I think next year is time to bring in a successor, and all transfers are a leap of faith.

Next year as in 20/21 (this season coming) or 21/22 (next season).

Would you (anyone) let him wind his contract down, and go on a free next summer?

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4 hours ago, JonDolman said:

Even if he weren't to get injured every game then for me he isn't really the right type as he's so bad at passing and hoofs it too much, and hoofs it badly.

I'd love it if we could sell or loan out and bring in 2 more better suited.

I know, very unlikely. 

First and foremost hes a defender and in my view the best defender we have at the club, and probably in the top 5 in this league when fit which I know is the big if? But we are lucky to have him, his distribution could be better but his role is to stop goals not spray the ball around, every team has/needs one of these players and you can live with that in a back 3 not so much a back 4. If anyone thinks we'll concede less goals with the likes of Moore and Vyner playing then they're mistaken. To improve on Baker we'd need to spend 5m+ which won't happen and before anyone says young defender on loan we need Baker's experience to play alongside these youngsters with Kalas also supporting him. 

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33 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Next year as in 20/21 (this season coming) or 21/22 (next season).

Would you (anyone) let him wind his contract down, and go on a free next summer?

It's one of those rare situations in which I'd let the player's contract run down. 12 more months of Baker.

Ideal world, 2020-21 is a big breakthrough season for both Vyner and Moore who both turn 24 as the season ends.

With Kalas the 'rock', we then look to bring in a talented young left footed centre back.

Nathan Baker turns 30 late in the season. My feeling is that he won't be the evergreen type. His game won't evolve. The frequency, and possibly severity, of his injuries will increase.

If I had to take a leap of faith, it would be in that scenario.

In terms of his value, I think he's a difficult player to move on in the transfer market. The type of club that would target a player of his ilk, at this stage of his career, which in my mind is a Barnsley or Luton, would be unlikely to stump up the requisite fee plus wage package. 

Then there's always the rumour that he has an underlying condition such as a back complaint. Is there something that would scupper a future medical? Who knows? Could be fantasy.

I'd let him walk in June 2021, with thanks for his service and warm wishes for his next challenge.

 

 

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3 hours ago, sinenomine said:

Probably the whole team could benefit from a sports psychologist. I've often wondered if one of our main weaknesses is a lack of mental toughness/focus. 

I agree we have a problem in the club we either sign crocks eg  Watkins Hadalukin Naggy etc or the training ground or methods are all wrong .

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3 hours ago, MarcusX said:

"Every game" is a dumb comment.

His "availability record" is actually very good. How many games has he actually missed through injury? I can't find any definitive information either way but considering he made 33 starts last season in the league and 34 2 seasons ago (one in between was 8 but we had webster and kalas) I dont think his availability is an issue.

I also recall you posting you couldn't remember the last time he'd completed 90 minutes just a couple of days after his 10th successive 90 minutes.

Define "horrendous" ? Went off 3 times with injury last season in 33 starts, 2 "tactical" subs and 28 full 90s

Season before he had 8 full 90s out of 12 starts, but we were lucky to have Webster and Kalas available almost all season.

17/18 had 34 starts and went off early twice.

So yes, it seems like NB picks up the occasional knock in a game that he can't shake off but from what I can see and remember doesn't spend lengthy periods out injured (happy to be proved wrong). He puts his body on the line, it's enivitble that he'll pick up knocks, I prefer that to shirking a challenge.

All that said, I think we can upgrade and improve as his distribution isn't the best. He's a very good defender but he is limited, I just think it's ridiculous that we have this discussion every time he picks up a knock. 

before another arsehole points this out inevitable.

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24 minutes ago, mozo said:

It's one of those rare situations in which I'd let the player's contract run down. 12 more months of Baker.

Ideal world, 2020-21 is a big breakthrough season for both Vyner and Moore who both turn 24 as the season ends.

With Kalas the 'rock', we then look to bring in a talented young left footed centre back.

Nathan Baker turns 30 late in the season. My feeling is that he won't be the evergreen type. His game won't evolve. The frequency, and possibly severity, of his injuries will increase.

If I had to take a leap of faith, it would be in that scenario.

In terms of his value, I think he's a difficult player to move on in the transfer market. The type of club that would target a player of his ilk, at this stage of his career, which in my mind is a Barnsley or Luton, would be unlikely to stump up the requisite fee plus wage package. 

Then there's always the rumour that he has an underlying condition such as a back complaint. Is there something that would scupper a future medical? Who knows? Could be fantasy.

I'd let him walk in June 2021, with thanks for his service and warm wishes for his next challenge.

 

 

Ok, that’s cool, you’ve explained your rationale.

in terms of your choice that is gonna cost us £1.725m this season.

£850k in wages and a cost £875k in amortisation (£3.5m / 4 yrs).

You've accepted you don’t think you’ll be able to move him on.

I admit its a tough call either way, would be a lot easier if Holden told us whether he was his no1 LCB irrespective of any new signings / loans. 😂

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More criticism of Baker - he was taken off “after a strong challenge” - he puts his body on the line time and time again - much more than any other defender we’ve got, but hey, let’s just criticise him ... 

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4 hours ago, MarcusX said:

"Every game" is a dumb comment.

His "availability record" is actually very good. How many games has he actually missed through injury? I can't find any definitive information either way but considering he made 33 starts last season in the league and 34 2 seasons ago (one in between was 8 but we had webster and kalas) I dont think his availability is an issue.

I also recall you posting you couldn't remember the last time he'd completed 90 minutes just a couple of days after his 10th successive 90 minutes.

Define "horrendous" ? Went off 3 times with injury last season in 33 starts, 2 "tactical" subs and 28 full 90s

Season before he had 8 full 90s out of 12 starts, but we were lucky to have Webster and Kalas available almost all season.

17/18 had 34 starts and went off early twice.

So yes, it seems like NB picks up the occasional knock in a game that he can't shake off but from what I can see and remember doesn't spend lengthy periods out injured (happy to be proved wrong). He puts his body on the line, it's enivitble that he'll pick up knocks, I prefer that to shirking a challenge.

All that said, I think we can upgrade and improve as his distribution isn't the best. He's a very good defender but he is limited, I just think it's ridiculous that we have this discussion every time he picks up a knock. 

Top post MX - the criticism of Baker is laughable - one of the best defenders in the championship - he gets stuck in more than any of our other defenders, hence he gets more niggles - it’s not that difficult to understand, yet loads just don’t get it ...

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3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

You have to ask yourself whether you can bring in someone better for the same wages first!

According to Kid he’s on £17k per week.

Just ignoring injuries for the moment., he had a decent season just gone.

18/19 he had to play second fiddle to Kalas and Webster.

In 17/18, he had a decent season too, Flint got lots of plaudits, but I still think Flint is a selfish CB, focused on his game only, everyone else to fit in with what he does, including the RB playing so narrow, because of Flint’s lack of pace on the turn, or Wright having to play LCB.  Flint was decent, but not as good as people thought.

6517F7F4-5907-470A-8AE9-BCDA7B0E047D.thumb.jpeg.cf3f21d156816a9be62caea8c5b64a9f.jpeg

Generally he has played a good chunk of games each season. 17/18 contained a 3 game suspension too.

The question marks are more the injuries in game, rather than injuries keeping him from being selected...which are bloody frustrating.

As it stands he is more than likely first choice LCB in a 3, unless Holden suddenly plumps for Vyner and Moore either side of Kalas.

If we bring someone in who’s better then we can review Baker’s contract situation.  If Holden believes he is his main man at LCB he should be looking to tie him down beyond next summer.

Its a leap of faith to be confident you can get better than Baker for less money....unless going down the loan route.  Clarke and Guehi have been sorted, looks like Kipre is off to West Brom. 

Feel like Baker should be the centre of the 3. I don’t really care if he is the only left footed CB in the squad. The outside CBs should be comfortable on the ball imo. Baker doesn’t take chances so he will often just knock it down the channel. Like the central CB to be a more dominant no nonsense type which I think is Baker’s game. It also limits the ground he needs to cover which hopefully means less muscular injuries for him which I think he has had a couple here. 
 

Idk if Kalas or Vyner can comfortably play on the left but Moore played on the left of a two to a good standard I thought in the games he played for us last season. He’d probably be my left sided choice with Baker in the middle and Kalas on the right. 
 

 

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Baker is a decent centre half but for me, this is one injury too many.  I'm afraid we are going to have to let him go as at a reportedly £17k per week we could spend that money on a player who is available for selection more often and I've lost count of the number of times he has had to be replaced by half time.  In all of these cases, he has walked off rather than been carried off.

I'm not sure if we are going to get much or any of our money back though.  It's a shame though, because he is a very decent centre half, but we can't afford to carry passengers.

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1 hour ago, RobintheRed Red said:

I agree we have a problem in the club we either sign crocks eg  Watkins Hadalukin Naggy etc or the training ground or methods are all wrong .

I assumed for a while it was the 2nd ie training ground/methods. We got a lot under LJ. Maybe it is the way we played last season, a lot of time out of possession can stretch players.

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3 minutes ago, wendyredredrobin said:

Baker is a decent centre half but for me, this is one injury too many.  I'm afraid we are going to have to let him go as at a reportedly £17k per week we could spend that money on a player who is available for selection more often and I've lost count of the number of times he has had to be replaced by half time.  In all of these cases, he has walked off rather than been carried off.

I'm not sure if we are going to get much or any of our money back though.  It's a shame though, because he is a very decent centre half, but we can't afford to carry passengers.

When you say let him go, do you mean sell (transfer) him....or pay up his contract?

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6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

When you say let him go, do you mean sell (transfer) him....or pay up his contract?

Sell if possible, Dave. Otherwise see if he can be loaned out or offered on a free to enable us to bring in a fit replacement. Not much point in just letting him run his contract down.

As I say, it's a shame, because I do rate him, but tough decisions have to be taken at this level.

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If we sell him, that’s two CBs we’ve got to find.

For example, if we were gonna get Clarke-Salter from Chelsea for say £1.5m and £15k wages on a 3 yr deal, that’s gonna cost me £1.25m each year.  That’s ok on the face of it.

But he’s probably not as good as Baker at this point in time.

Nightmare innit.

If you can’t sell Baker, how do you keep him motivated in his final year?

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Here's a wild idea, shall we pause this thread until we actually know if he will miss a match?
"Additionally, centre-back Nathan Baker is a doubt"
Has anyone witnessed the "strong challenge" quoted, or know who it was made by before criticising?

The same article states "Some sources have even suggested that Williams (Joe) is out for a lengthy amount of time - up to 12 weeks." 
It also mentions Liam Walsh being out having picked up "a knock."

That's just from training' without even managing a friendly.
J.W. hasn't even played for us yet. Should we look to move him on along with Liam?

Were we wrong to hang onto Kalas, Dasilva and Korey as they all were all out for longer than Baker has been since he joined.
As others have mentioned, Baker's style of play will lead to injuries, however, in his case, this usually means just missing part of a match, maybe the one after.

Please can we get beyond jumping on the bandwagon, to throw off the cliched phrases that are stored up for certain (and many) players in our team, regardless of fact or reason?

Really Guys. Posting "Beyond a joke now." "He's got to go." etc., because it's reported he might miss one match! I can only say Really! again. Sorry about that.


 

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2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

If you can’t sell Baker, how do you keep him motivated in his final year?

At 29 the motivation should be playing well enough this season to earn him one more big contract in his career, the worse he players the smaller that contract gets and the worse the team he’d sign for. Although all things considered I could see him signing for Boro if warnock is there still.

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6 hours ago, mightyreds89 said:

First and foremost hes a defender and in my view the best defender we have at the club, and probably in the top 5 in this league when fit which I know is the big if? But we are lucky to have him, his distribution could be better but his role is to stop goals not spray the ball around, every team has/needs one of these players and you can live with that in a back 3 not so much a back 4. If anyone thinks we'll concede less goals with the likes of Moore and Vyner playing then they're mistaken. To improve on Baker we'd need to spend 5m+ which won't happen and before anyone says young defender on loan we need Baker's experience to play alongside these youngsters with Kalas also supporting him. 

Disagree on that. Kalas is better. Williams for me was better last season too.

And who knows, Moore might well become better.

Baker made many defensive mistakes from Christmas 17/18 to end of last season.

He improved this last season. Still think Williams was our best defender this last season except those 2 games. Kalas didn't play enough but when fit he is our best. 

I think Baker is a good defender, but just not as good as some seem to think.

His lack of ability on the ball and him signalling to come off so many times means for me we have to replace as soon as we can. But I don't think him purely as a defender we will necessarily miss if we bring in the right one.

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