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On 20/09/2020 at 16:41, bris red said:

Totally agree. It was always going to be the case though that these imbeciles would try and start the point scoring early on..

Everyone that wanted Hughton myself included wanted him for one reason and that was for the good of this football club. If and it is still a big if Holden and the current management team succeed in getting us into the top 6 (I genuinely feel anything else will be a failure of sorts - dress it up however you like but it will) then i will be the first to applaud the board for appointing them. All i and many others have ever wanted is the best for BCFC and not to point score against our own fans - its beyond pathetic.

Well said mate .

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12 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

Yes, well 4 including the cup games, but OK 2 games... Which we've won both. 

What else would you like us to base our first impressions on...? 

Nothing wrong with discussing first impressions. I just cannot believe there are posts on here where people are taking swipes at people because “they have been proved wrong”

I’m simply saying we are a few games in and some people need to reign it in. With a lot of new managers comes the honeymoon period....can we save the petty swipes against over fans until at least 15-20 games in? 

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1 hour ago, Andy082005 said:

Nothing wrong with discussing first impressions. I just cannot believe there are posts on here where people are taking swipes at people because “they have been proved wrong”

I’m simply saying we are a few games in and some people need to reign it in. With a lot of new managers comes the honeymoon period....can we save the petty swipes against over fans until at least 15-20 games in? 

As we say in business

‘ you never get a second chance to make a first impression ‘

Holden has made a good first impression and the signs are that it’s not just a flash in the pan .

 We need to be united to progress and whilst debate is to be encouraged, point scoring ,insults and petty squabbling are not. 

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1 hour ago, Andy082005 said:

Nothing wrong with discussing first impressions. I just cannot believe there are posts on here where people are taking swipes at people because “they have been proved wrong”

I’m simply saying we are a few games in and some people need to reign it in. With a lot of new managers comes the honeymoon period....can we save the petty swipes against over fans until at least 15-20 games in? 

I would agree with that. 

It's a shame those people didnt/wouldn't afford the same courtesy to Dean and the club, over his appointment. 

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14 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

I would agree with that. 

It's a shame those people didnt/wouldn't afford the same courtesy to Dean and the club, over his appointment. 

Could you link some posts you feel this applies to? I genuinely don't remember Holden being the subject of poster's ire on here. It feels a bit like you want that to be the case rather than it be the reality. It certainly wasn't widespread on here if so. 

As @Midlands Robin very aptly said, it doesn't appear you really gave an opinion on who the new manager should be prior to the appointment. Just have adopted a default position of criticising fellow fans for being unimpressed that the club appointed Holden.

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22 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Could you link some posts you feel this applies to? I genuinely don't remember Holden being the subject of poster's ire on here. It feels a bit like you want that to be the case rather than it be the reality. It certainly wasn't widespread on here if so. 

As @Midlands Robin very aptly said, it doesn't appear you really gave an opinion on who the new manager should be prior to the appointment. Just have adopted a default position of criticising fellow fans for being unimpressed that the club appointed Holden.

I certainly can't be bothered to link post quotes. Are you really telling me that the general consecus was one of "OK, let's trust the interview process and see if he's the right man"..? 

No it was not. I agree no vitriol was aim at Holden, but the reaction to the club was ridiculous, seeing as nobody knew what had gone on in interviews. 

I didn't really have an opinion. That's why. 

My preferred choice was Hughton. If not, then Paul Cook. 

Once Holden appeared more likely, I was surprised, but willing to hope (rather than expect, granted) that he had impressed and wanted the job more than other candidates. 

There was the concern that he was indeed the cheap, short term option, at such an uncertain time (covid) but he quickly began to displell those concerns in his (and Mark Ashton's) interviews. 

He has alot to learn and will make mistakes. The early signs have been very encouraging. 

I believe my confidence in the appointment was greatly boosted by the subsequent appointments of his assistants, which I thought could be very shrewd. 

It's not point scoring, in the slightest. It's frustration that people spout such shite, from an uneducated position, so regularly, that drives me mad..! 

 

 

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32 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

I certainly can't be bothered to link post quotes. Are you really telling me that the general consecus was one of "OK, let's trust the interview process and see if he's the right man"..? 

No it was not. I agree no vitriol was aim at Holden, but the reaction to the club was ridiculous, seeing as nobody knew what had gone on in interviews. 

I didn't really have an opinion. That's why. 

My preferred choice was Hughton. If not, then Paul Cook. 

Once Holden appeared more likely, I was surprised, but willing to hope (rather than expect, granted) that he had impressed and wanted the job more than other candidates. 

There was the concern that he was indeed the cheap, short term option, at such an uncertain time (covid) but he quickly began to displell those concerns in his (and Mark Ashton's) interviews. 

He has alot to learn and will make mistakes. The early signs have been very encouraging. 

I believe my confidence in the appointment was greatly boosted by the subsequent appointments of his assistants, which I thought could be very shrewd. 

It's not point scoring, in the slightest. It's frustration that people spout such shite, from an uneducated position, so regularly, that drives me mad..! 

 

 

My first choice was Hughton, but weirdly I was more excited with Cook as my second choice.  I think that because I thought I knew what I was getting with CH, but Cook’s recruitment would unearth some real value for money signings.

But I was impressed with what I saw under Holden in his caretaker role, so that when there was noise that he was in with a real chance, I was right behind it.

The shambles of the comms is not Holden’s fault, and that has led to it being an initially difficult appointment.

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

My first choice was Hughton, but weirdly I was more excited with Cook as my second choice.  I think that because I thought I knew what I was getting with CH, but Cook’s recruitment would unearth some real value for money signings.

But I was impressed with what I saw under Holden in his caretaker role, so that when there was noise that he was in with a real chance, I was right behind it.

The shambles of the comms is not Holden’s fault, and that has led to it being an initially difficult appointment.

I'd say that was very much the same as me. 

I don't really go with the whole "shambolic comms" accusations, whilst I can appreciate peoples frustrations and getting it resolved. 

I'm not sure what people wanted the club to say, whilst doing their jobs with interview and due diligence. Its people own fault that they got excited by following unsubstantiated media reports, rather than waiting for the club to announce when they were ready, which, if course, they eventually did. 

There's no doubt its a big gamble, but hopefully a well calculated one. I'd have been far less convinced, had they appointed DH after a few days and clearly hadn't looked into all possible options. 

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On 20/09/2020 at 16:25, Bat Fastard said:

For all the fans who stopped watching our beloved Bristol City because Dean Holden was appointed manager.  Maybe they will creep back and grudgingly accept that the club has chosen well.

2012-13...we beat Crystal Palace and Cardiff in our 2nd and 3rd matches, putting 4 past both of them. This was then followed by a tsunami of shite, resulting in relegation.

I am impressed by Holden so far, but let's calm the **** down a bit.

(Of course, you are a brazen troll)

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23 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

I'd say that was very much the same as me. 

I don't really go with the whole "shambolic comms" accusations, whilst I can appreciate peoples frustrations and getting it resolved. 

I'm not sure what people wanted the club to say, whilst doing their jobs with interview and due diligence. Its people own fault that they got excited by following unsubstantiated media reports, rather than waiting for the club to announce when they were ready, which, if course, they eventually did. 

There's no doubt its a big gamble, but hopefully a well calculated one. I'd have been far less convinced, had they appointed DH after a few days and clearly hadn't looked into all possible options. 

I think I’m lumping other things in, and probably more frustrated by the season card stuff than the “no comms re the manager”, where a simple holding message would’ve sufficed.

Yeah, I never subscribed to the view of “if it was gonna be a Holden, why not 4/5 weeks earlier”.  I think they were thorough, but even as someone who got behind the idea of Holden very early on, I still think the “questions” were loaded in favour of him, e.g. his knowledge of the squad etc would’ve given him an advantage over others.

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

I'd say that was very much the same as me. 

I don't really go with the whole "shambolic comms" accusations, whilst I can appreciate peoples frustrations and getting it resolved. 

I'm not sure what people wanted the club to say, whilst doing their jobs with interview and due diligence. Its people own fault that they got excited by following unsubstantiated media reports, rather than waiting for the club to announce when they were ready, which, if course, they eventually did. 

There's no doubt its a big gamble, but hopefully a well calculated one. I'd have been far less convinced, had they appointed DH after a few days and clearly hadn't looked into all possible options. 

"The aim is to get us into the Premier League as soon as we can."

"When it comes to the crunch, he hasn't got us over the line and we felt it was time to make the move, to make a change for someone who can help us make that next step."

"We felt if we were going to make a change we should start now, bring a breath of fresh air into the club, everyone was on a downer at the point and anybody coming in gets plenty of time for the new season."

These are direct quotes from SL, so hardly 'unsubstantiated media reports'. No one would have heard these quotes and thought 'Yes, sounds like Dean Holden would be the first choice candidate'

Lansdown also admitted the comms could have been handled better, so by "not really going with the whole shambolic comms accusation" - you're more chilled about it than our own owner is.

Do you genuinely think their comms and messaging was handled well then?

I think your points would hold more weight if people were giving Holden a hard time, but they aren't. On the contrary, people seem to have rallied round Holden fairly quickly. 

The issues levied at the board aren't just about this remember, it's historic. They've cocked up plenty of things in recent years - and mostly in the comms area. It's definitely a weakness and was amplified during the appointment process.

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

"The aim is to get us into the Premier League as soon as we can."

"When it comes to the crunch, he hasn't got us over the line and we felt it was time to make the move, to make a change for someone who can help us make that next step."

"We felt if we were going to make a change we should start now, bring a breath of fresh air into the club, everyone was on a downer at the point and anybody coming in gets plenty of time for the new season."

These are direct quotes from SL, so hardly 'unsubstantiated media reports'. No one would have heard these quotes and thought 'Yes, sounds like Dean Holden would be the first choice candidate'

Lansdown also admitted the comms could have been handled better, so by "not really going with the whole shambolic comms accusation" - you're more chilled about it than our own owner is.

Do you genuinely think their comms and messaging was handled well then?

I think your points would hold more weight if people were giving Holden a hard time, but they aren't. On the contrary, people seem to have rallied round Holden fairly quickly. 

The issues levied at the board aren't just about this remember, it's historic. They've cocked up plenty of things in recent years - and mostly in the comms area. It's definitely a weakness and was amplified during the appointment process.

 

 

I think it’s pretty clear the board communicated what they thought at the time, but sensibly kept quiet during the interview process while their views changed. When they sacked LJ they probably thought an interesting outsider would be the likely appointment, but as time went on, either the other candidates didn’t impress them as much as they expected, or were too expensive, or wanted more control than they were willing to cede.

Its far too early to say whether DH will be successful, but at least the early signs are good. Like most people I was tempted by the track records of Hughton, Cook etc and surprised that the board effectively backtracked in appointing DH.

However, I don’t have so much certainty in my own views that I was prepared to mock, insult and vilify anybody involved in the decision process, because I knew they might be proved right. Sadly there are lots of people on OTIB who are convinced they know best despite having very little experience of running a football club. It may be inflammatory to start a thread like this, but not as inflammatory as the opinions that provoked it IMO. 

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

My first choice was Hughton, but weirdly I was more excited with Cook as my second choice.  I think that because I thought I knew what I was getting with CH, but Cook’s recruitment would unearth some real value for money signings.

But I was impressed with what I saw under Holden in his caretaker role, so that when there was noise that he was in with a real chance, I was right behind it.

The shambles of the comms is not Holden’s fault, and that has led to it being an initially difficult appointment.

I agree with that, Dave. None of this is Holden's fault, although I cannot recall any ire being directed at him. I've certainly wished him well since he took the job. I place little value in what he achieved in his caretaker role as I suspect it was the bounce effect after taking the shackles off, but he couldn't have done any more in the first four games so good on him. 

Just because we've had a good start, however, does not (should not) exhonerate the club from any scrutiny over the way they handled his appointment. As I said a while ago, if they went with Holden at the start I would've had few complaints, none if it was motivated by the financial effects of the virus. 

 

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7 minutes ago, tin said:

I agree with that, Dave. None of this is Holden's fault, although I cannot recall any ire being directed at him. I've certainly wished him well since he took  the job. I place little value in what he achieved in his caretaker role as I suspect it was the bounce effect after taking the shackles off, but he couldn't have done any more in the first four games so good on him. 

Just because we've have a good start, however, does not (should not) exhonerate the club from any scrutiny over the way they handled his appointment. As I said a while ago, if they went with Holden at the start I would've had few complaints, none if it was motivated by the financial effects of the virus. 

 

Good post - this is basically the majority view. 

There are some posters who, despite knowing that this is the majority view, take more enjoyment in misrepresenting others through trying to paint the minority view (over the top personal criticism of the board/club as a whole) as the majority view. It's quite strange really. It's almost as if their primary reason for using Otib is to score points against other anonymous forum members. 

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4 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Good post - this is basically the majority view. 

There are some posters who, despite knowing that this is the majority view, take more enjoyment in misrepresenting others through trying to paint the minority view (over the top personal criticism of the board/club as a whole) as the majority view. It's quite strange really. It's almost as if their primary reason for using Otib is to score points against other anonymous forum members. 

I don't think the OP misrepresents anyone - it just calls out those who DID spout over the top personal criticism; a minority, but not a tiny minority.

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7 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Not really, you know that views on the appointment are far more nuanced than you like to make out. You just enjoy being contrarian - it's a bit sad really in my opinion. 

There are hundreds if not thousands of posters on here. Most are reasonable but a significant number are not. The original post in this thread (I haven't researched Bat Fastard) is brief and fairly bland.

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16 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Not really, you know that views on the appointment are far more nuanced than you like to make out. You just enjoy being contrarian - it's a bit sad really in my opinion. 

If the fact that I took issue with some of the hysterical remarks made about board members and even Lee Johnson, then I am guilty as charged.  Maybe you are one of the mob, but I tend to look at more nuanced values like reason and (wherever possible) politeness.  When some people see failure and lack of ability or worse, I see the people who run our club as being decent, intelligent and talented human beings who do their utmost to make wise and correct decisions.  The decision to give the post of head coach to DH looks like it may have been such a decision even though it is early days. It certainly does not have the look of disaster about it, which seemed to be the view of the mob, who you prefer to call the majority.  Whichever view you choose to adopt, it certainly cannot justify the insults hurled at the staff of Bristol City.  Maybe we just have different standards?

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17 minutes ago, Leveller said:

There are hundreds if not thousands of posters on here. Most are reasonable but a significant number are not. The original post in this thread (I haven't researched Bat Fastard) is brief and fairly bland.

It's designed to be antagonistic and the OP knew exactly what he was doing. It seems to have backfired a bit and ended up with the OP looking a bit desperate for a rise. He hasn't really got one, just people educating him on the reality of opinion on this forum

You clearly haven't noticed the OP's posts over the last few weeks. This is just a continuation designed to be antagonistic.

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4 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

It's designed to be antagonistic and the OP knew exactly what he was doing. It seems to have backfired a bit and ended up with the OP looking a bit desperate for a rise. He hasn't really got one, just people educating him on the reality of opinion on this forum

You clearly haven't noticed the OP's posts over the last few weeks. This is just a continuation designed to be antagonistic.

You seem to be saying that it is unacceptable to disagree with the mob.  As I say, we seem to disagree - so lets leave it at that.

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20 hours ago, Bat Fastard said:

I have always tried to support rather than get on the backs of managers and players. Lee did many very good things during his stint as head coach and some of the fruits of his labours are starting to find their feet in the first team.  I find the tone of some of the criticism to be very rude and unpleasant and feel that this reflects badly on the fan base.  Two of the main culprits have shown their disapproval for my original quote. If they hate so much about the club, why do they bother? They boast about no longer going to matches (covid aside) and lack the will to support, but still come on here to criticise.  It takes all sorts I suppose.

You did disagree that Mr Lee Johnson should be replaced.

The Mob as you called them then were correct - You appear to support that Mr Johnson should have been replaced.

 

4 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

You seem to be saying that it is unacceptable to disagree with the mob.  As I say, we seem to disagree - so lets leave it at that.

You now want to pursue a theme of disagreeing with others to reframe being wrong back to you are right.

You are the Mob in Aesops the Man,The Boy and the Donkey.

 

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2 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

 

You did disagree that Mr Lee Johnson should be replaced.

The Mob as you called them then were correct - You appear to support that Mr Johnson should have been replaced.

 

You now want to pursue a theme of disagreeing with others to reframe being wrong back to you are right.

You are the Mob in Aesops the Man,The Boy and the Donkey.

 

I have always supported the manager (even the hated Pulis, although that did cause a degree of angst!).  We have no idea how Lee would have tackled the ongoing team issues and the powers that be have made a decision, which I respect. I did not respect the vitriol of the mob in their attitude towards Lee Johnson, which can only have heaped additional pressure onto his shoulders and made his job more difficult.  I believe that he had some bad luck and can see the other side of the debate. It is a shame that that debate was framed in such unpleasant terms by many on this forum.  The reason that I support the manager and any player wearing the shirt is because I believe that that is more likely to lead to better performances and potentially more wins.  I find it disappointing that some on here do not seem to understand that motivation.

Your last portion of your post is confused.

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32 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

You seem to be saying that it is unacceptable to disagree with the mob.  As I say, we seem to disagree - so lets leave it at that.

No, it's fine to disagree with people. I don't subscribe to this antagonistic labeling of people as a 'mob' (proving my point!). The views to the appointment are nuanced, and you know this. You just enjoy being contrarian for some weird reason. 

You only say 'let's leave it at that' because you know that views are more nuanced than you make out and don't really have a response. 

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1 minute ago, Phileas Fogg said:

No, it's fine to disagree with people. I don't subscribe to this antagonistic labeling of people as a 'mob' (proving my point!). The views to the appointment are nuanced, and you know this. You just enjoy being contrarian for some weird reason. 

You only say 'let's leave it at that' because you know that views are more nuanced than you make out and don't really have a response. 

How would you define the mob? I always thought that it was a large crowd of people displaying unruly behaviour that seems intent on causing trouble.  The language was certainly unruly and pretty insulting and was indeed an example of mob behaviour.  If you support the mob then that is your opinion. My opinion is that the debate was framed in hysterical and insulting terms and that this was not appropriate.  If you say it is antagonistic to call a mob a mob then maybe you are just being over sensitive. If the cap fits why be ashamed to wear it?

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