Zak Vyner

[Shuffle]

Intrigued to see what people’s opinions of Zak are. He’s a confusing one for me as seen flashes that show him as a talented player with ability and was superb at Swansea away. However, watching him defend he gets beat too easily and got caught ball watching a couple of long diagonals last night that put his man 1-1 with keeper.  He’s 23 with over 100 games at various clubs and not convinced he’s a long term starter for us but could be wrong.

[WirralRobin]

Just now, Shuffle said:

Intrigued to see what people’s opinions of Zak are. He’s a confusing one for me as seen flashes that show him as a talented player with ability and was superb at Swansea away. However, watching him defend he gets beat too easily and got caught ball watching a couple of long diagonals last night that put his man 1-1 with keeper.  He’s 23 with over 100 games at various clubs and not convinced he’s a long term starter for us but could be wrong.

If you look at our centre back options when everyone's fit, he's 5th choice for me behind Kalas, Mawson, Baker and Moore and for me he's the guy to drop out of the side when Kalas is back fit. I think generally he's done well since coming into the side post DH taking over but agree against real quality he can be got at defensively as the Villa game showed. Overall though with his versatility he is a decent to good squad player for the level we want to get to but nothing more than that imo.

[Sturny]

I feel like all his current errors will erode with age and the more he plays. This season will be big for him, so far so good and I believe he will improve. If he doesn't kick on this season or potentially even the next one I could see him being sold. 

[Son of Fred]

10 minutes ago, Shuffle said:

Intrigued to see what people’s opinions of Zak are. He’s a confusing one for me as seen flashes that show him as a talented player with ability and was superb at Swansea away. However, watching him defend he gets beat too easily and got caught ball watching a couple of long diagonals last night that put his man 1-1 with keeper.  He’s 23 with over 100 games at various clubs and not convinced he’s a long term starter for us but could be wrong.

Not good enough...

Flog him for every penny we can milk from some 'soft melt right now..

[Merrick's Marvels]

4 minutes ago, Shuffle said:

Intrigued to see what people’s opinions of Zak are. He’s a confusing one for me as seen flashes that show him as a talented player with ability and was superb at Swansea away. However, watching him defend he gets beat too easily and got caught ball watching a couple of long diagonals last night that put his man 1-1 with keeper.  He’s 23 with over 100 games at various clubs and not convinced he’s a long term starter for us but could be wrong.

Same as Moore.

Good athlete. Good attitude. Comfortable on the ball. Needs to be stronger, more dominant, with more controlled aggression - forwards always look comfortable up against him, he needs to make it uncomfortable and for 90 minutes. Probably not quite good enough but it's early days so happy to be proved wrong in the long run. 

[TonyTonyTony]

Isnt he more of a right back to be fair to him? If so he is going to look a bit out place in DH's 532, as he isnt a RWB IMHO

[Davefevs]

21 minutes ago, WirralRobin said:

If you look at our centre back options when everyone's fit, he's 5th choice for me behind Kalas, Mawson, Baker and Moore and for me he's the guy to drop out of the side when Kalas is back fit. I think generally he's done well since coming into the side post DH taking over but agree against real quality he can be got at defensively as the Villa game showed. Overall though with his versatility he is a decent to good squad player for the level we want to get to but nothing more than that imo.

Pretty much as I see it.  Got some things to learn, physically and aerially, but he hasn’t let us down, and he’s done better than I’d expected him too.

16 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Isnt he more of a right back to be fair to him? If so he is going to look a bit out place in DH's 532, as he isnt a RWB IMHO

His first game at RB was his debut v MKD!!  He’s a CB, but he has proved he can be versatile.  Think as a young’un (pre-18s) he played a bit in midfield too.

[grifty]

I think he's a good back-up player. Wages won't be high, won't expect to play every week. I don't worry when he has the ball, sometimes I do when he doesn't.

He's got a good cross-pitch long ball to the LWB though.

[Super]

24 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Same as Moore.

Good athlete. Good attitude. Comfortable on the ball. Needs to be stronger, more dominant, with more controlled aggression - forwards always look comfortable up against him, he needs to make it uncomfortable and for 90 minutes. Probably not quite good enough but it's early days so happy to be proved wrong in the long run. 

I think Moore is a level above Vyner.

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

There's room for improvement but I'd expect that at his age and experience. There are some very good forwards at this level and I don't think he's let us down. I'd take him over some Premier League defenders I could think of, such as Phil Jones etc. 

[Merrick's Marvels]

Replying to Super:

Yes I agree, at the moment he seems to have taken a step further forward. I've particularly liked his controlled aggression - something which I'd  guess doesn't  come naturally to him (he seems too nice a fella to be a footballer!) but was vital that he added this to his game. 

 

[Red Ferret]

He's very accurate at long balls and has quite a stinging shot on him from what I've seen 

[Loco Rojo]

Young. Got potential. Getting match experience to develop. 

He won't be 10/10 every game (or a 7, 8 or 9) otherwise he wouldn't be with us. But this opportunity is a perfect one for him to grasp and develop. If it doesn't work, we move on. We as fans have to learn to give our youth a chance and not write them off so quickly - especially not after a game against a good PL side.

[cidercity]

This is going against the grain but at the moment i think he is better than TM, Taylor can sometimes let the ball bounce off of him when trying to control it also he is sometimes careless with his passing.

i dont see any of this with Zac.

I should of added i think they are both decent with room to improve even more. 

[Carey 6]

30 minutes ago, Super said:

I think Moore is a level above Vyner.

I think Vyner is a level above Moore

Seems to have better distribution as well from what I’ve seen of him in CB. 

[Harry]

1 hour ago, Shuffle said:

Intrigued to see what people’s opinions of Zak are. He’s a confusing one for me as seen flashes that show him as a talented player with ability and was superb at Swansea away. However, watching him defend he gets beat too easily and got caught ball watching a couple of long diagonals last night that put his man 1-1 with keeper.  He’s 23 with over 100 games at various clubs and not convinced he’s a long term starter for us but could be wrong.

Careful squire. You’re not allowed to start an individual player thread, saying he’s not good enough. (See responses to my Nagy thread).

[GrahamC]

10 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

I think Vyner is a level above Moore

Seems to have better distribution as well from what I’ve seen of him in CB. 

Think if Kalas had stayed fit he might have stayed in the side instead of Moore myself.

I like him, not the finished article but quick, athletic & versatile.

Will play an important role this season & also means that with him, Max & Antoine all in the squad on merit we aren’t fudging that home produced player rule.

[redhead]

Very good footballer is Vyner.

[RedRock]

I thought he was ‘adequate’ last night.

The whole team seemed a bit Johnsonque to me. A bit of a muddle, no clear plan, fluidity etc. 

 

It’s Taylor Moore that’s beginning to worry me a bit. This repeated charging up the pitch with the ball is fine. But to then, seemingly, boot it anywhere as he approaches/crosses the half way line is criminal. That at least 3 times I’ve seen him do it. He did this in the first half in a very wobbly performance. An assured second-half eased my fears a bit, but surely some of our coaches are picking up on this and told him to stop it. It leaves him woefully out of position and the team horrendously exposed. 

[Northern Red]

1 hour ago, Robert the bruce said:

Not good enough...

Flog him for every penny we can milk from some 'soft melt right now..

I don't know if you've noticed, but we're not exactly well stocked with defensive options at the moment.

[Tully Bascomb]

19 minutes ago, Harry said:

Careful squire. You’re not allowed to start an individual player thread, saying he’s not good enough. (See responses to my Nagy thread).

Thats because you came over like a 12 year old who lost his favourite Pokemon card.

[cidercity1987]

I think him and Moore need a season in and around our first team to help their development. No more lower league loans. Then we can see if they are good enough or not.

[redpole]

1 hour ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Same as Moore.

Good athlete. Good attitude. Comfortable on the ball. Needs to be stronger, more dominant, with more controlled aggression - forwards always look comfortable up against him, he needs to make it uncomfortable and for 90 minutes. Probably not quite good enough but it's early days so happy to be proved wrong in the long run. 

Obviously didn’t watch Stoke game, I thought after a shakey start he was dominating in the error and wasn’t out muscled. As this was his 4th game of the season since being back from multiple loans he is starting to get into the player we all want to see. 

[Harry]

1 hour ago, BoneyardTIM said:

Thats because you came over like a 12 year old who lost his favourite Pokemon card.

Oh believe me - if I’d lost my fave Pokemon card, you’d know all about it. 
You ain’t seen nothin yet! 

[CliftonCliff]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

Careful squire. You’re not allowed to start an individual player thread, saying he’s not good enough. (See responses to my Nagy thread).

Nothing wrong with constructive criticism. However, sometimes it can be not so much what you say, but how you say it that evokes the kind of response I think you may be referring to. Have you considered that possibility at all?

[Harry]

1 minute ago, CliftonCliff said:

Nothing wrong with constructive criticism. However, sometimes it can be not so much what you say, but how you say it that evokes the kind of response I think you may be referring to. Have you considered that possibility at all?

Indeed sir. 
The Nagy post was written with an attempted ‘light’ humour. Not sure why people are so bloody serious about it. 

[Kykoliko]

Moore is vastly superior to Vyner - I really can't see how anyone can view it otherwise!

Having said that, they play a pretty different game, particularly on the ball.

Moore has obviously been tasked with bringing the ball out of defence and has been largely successful. He did struggle a bit last night but that is to be expected against a Prem team that presses tightly in midfield. Defensively speaking, he is solid. He reads the game well, he is a quick and does well to interrupt passes before they become a problem.

Vyner on the other hand has a preference for the Alexander-Arnold-esque crossfield wonder passes and to be fair to him, he's reasonable at them. It's the shorter build up play where I think he is quite ponderous. There were a few situations in the last couple of games where quick distribution to a player on the left wing was on but Vyner didn't take the option. I also feel like Vyner gets caught out of position more often than Moore.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, RedRock said:

I thought he was ‘adequate’ last night.

The whole team seemed a bit Johnsonque to me. A bit of a muddle, no clear plan, fluidity etc.

it seemed anything but Johnsonesque to me.  The plan is to build from the back, through the midfield, get the wingbacks high and go from there.  Against better opposition that isn’t always gonna come off, but the plan was there.  We actually got our WBs into really good positions, but didn’t execute well, or good defending (?).

Eliasson:

Sessegnon

Quote

It’s Taylor Moore that’s beginning to worry me a bit. This repeated charging up the pitch with the ball is fine. But to then, seemingly, boot it anywhere as he approaches/crosses the half way line is criminal.

believe it or not, this is not that dissimilar to Webster.  He would maraud forward but into condensed areas of the pitch.  Occasionally he woukd break that barrier, with the ball or with a pass between the lines.  But often he’d eventually have to go sideways or backwards.  Don’t get me wrong Webster was smooth on the ball, but his runs forward weren’t threatening (in the main), partly because Pack immediately dropped in losing any numerical advantage we had in the midfield.

Taylor needs to reflect back on those funds last night, and recognise when he’s just running into trouble.

That at least 3 times I’ve seen him do it. He did this in the first half in a very wobbly performance. An assured second-half eased my fears a bit, but surely some of our coaches are picking up on this and told him to stop it. It leaves him woefully out of position and the team horrendously exposed.

yep, looks good until the point where he has nowhere to go...and rushes his next action. 

 Comments embedded, but a bit weirdly, so please expand each section. Ta.

[CliftonCliff]

45 minutes ago, Harry said:

Indeed sir. 
The Nagy post was written with an attempted ‘light’ humour. Not sure why people are so bloody serious about it. 

Perhaps it’s because, like me, they failed to detect any trace of irony. I guess the rest of us must just be out of step with your sense of humour...

[Harry]

55 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

Perhaps it’s because, like me, they failed to detect any trace of irony. I guess the rest of us must just be out of step with your sense of humour...

The quote referred to slapstick comedy and custard pies. Did anyone really take that seriously?? 

[Phileas Fogg]

I've never been completely sold on Vyner. He always looks a bit hesitant to me and like an accident waiting to happen. My gut instinct is that he's not quite good enough for where we aspire to be as a club - but as he's a young academy player I would be delighted if he proves me wrong.

[CliftonCliff]

47 minutes ago, Harry said:

The quote referred to slapstick comedy and custard pies. Did anyone really take that seriously?? 

I don't know. You'd have to ask them.

I can only speak for myself. In my case, I think what caught my attention was the disproportionate, excessive criticism of the player. Worst you've seen at AG in many a year (really?), wouldn't pay a tenner to watch a game in future if you knew in advance that he was on the team sheet (wow!); runs around a lot and does nothing, etc. etc. Doesn't really sound like you were just having a laugh, does it?

I think in the context of all that, your somewhat incongruous reference to custard pies went over my head. Like I said, maybe just irony failure on my part.

Maybe.

[RedRock]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Sessegnon

 Comments embedded, but a bit weirdly, so please expand each section. Ta.

As ever Dave, perceptive as always and points supported with useful facts.

Don’t tell RobF, but you’re rapidly becoming my favourite poster

 

The problem with Taylor Moore is that he often isn’t in trouble when he leathers it - few passing options maybe, but no one directly challenging him. It’s like on, or around the half-way line he just has a rush of blood when he’s done a run with the ball.

There is an excellent player in the making, if he can get rid of these silly passing errors.

[DT The Optimist]

Interesting one and reading this thread a cross section of thoughts and opinions . Shows how we all see it differently.  
My own take is that with all fit he will not near the match day squad.

 Yet he has now accumulated A lot of starts at different levels. Anyone  know what Aberdeen fans thought of him? 

[chipdawg]

I think that Moore is superior to Vyner. And I think Vyner is a perfectly serviceable squad player provided that he has someone 'senior' alongside them. I think that the same is kind of true regarding Moore, but I think he does a better job of keeping his head above water without quite the same level of support. I'm just speculating based on observations, I'm sure @Davefevs or someone will come along with some stats that prove me wrong! Given that last night's back 3 included 2 inexperienced players and a left back/midfielder up against a very physical, young striker in good form and two very skillful internationals with a lot of games at the highest level, I'm not sure we should be casting tooany aspersions on what Vyner (or Moore) can or can't do

[marcofisher]

7 hours ago, grifty said:

I think he's a good back-up player. Wages won't be high, won't expect to play every week. I don't worry when he has the ball, sometimes I do when he doesn't.

He's got a good cross-pitch long ball to the LWB though.

Spot on really. Most of the "he's not good enough sell him" brigade don't have a clue how valuable it is to have a versatile defender on half the wages that a replacement would cost. Money can be better invested in other areas.

[Monkeh]

6 hours ago, Kykoliko said:

Moore is vastly superior to Vyner - I really can't see how anyone can view it otherwise!

Having said that, they play a pretty different game, particularly on the ball.

Moore has obviously been tasked with bringing the ball out of defence and has been largely successful. He did struggle a bit last night but that is to be expected against a Prem team that presses tightly in midfield. Defensively speaking, he is solid. He reads the game well, he is a quick and does well to interrupt passes before they become a problem.

Vyner on the other hand has a preference for the Alexander-Arnold-esque crossfield wonder passes and to be fair to him, he's reasonable at them. It's the shorter build up play where I think he is quite ponderous. There were a few situations in the last couple of games where quick distribution to a player on the left wing was on but Vyner didn't take the option. I also feel like Vyner gets caught out of position more often than Moore.

Going on this season alone id have vyner over Moore, Taylor has been really disappointing so far this season

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, RedRock said:

As ever Dave, perceptive as always and points supported with useful facts.

Don’t tell RobF, but you’re rapidly becoming my favourite poster

 

The problem with Taylor Moore is that he often isn’t in trouble when he leathers it - few passing options maybe, but no one directly challenging him. It’s like on, or around the half-way line he just has a rush of blood when he’s done a run with the ball.

There is an excellent player in the making, if he can get rid of these silly passing errors.

Yep, sometimes he just needs to stop, look around and show some composure.  There’s running towards congestion and carrying on...and there’s running towards congestion, realising it and then looking for the best option.

1 hour ago, chipdawg said:

I think that Moore is superior to Vyner. And I think Vyner is a perfectly serviceable squad player provided that he has someone 'senior' alongside them. I think that the same is kind of true regarding Moore, but I think he does a better job of keeping his head above water without quite the same level of support. I'm just speculating based on observations, I'm sure @Davefevs or someone will come along with some stats that prove me wrong! Given that last night's back 3 included 2 inexperienced players and a left back/midfielder up against a very physical, young striker in good form and two very skillful internationals with a lot of games at the highest level, I'm not sure we should be casting tooany aspersions on what Vyner (or Moore) can or can't do

Not sure stats help here.  One thing I’d say is that my expectation levels of each are different.  I expect Moore to be better than Vyner (due to my perception of his ability and experience at this level).  That might be a bit unfair.  Both have done fine so far, both had dodgy moments, both had good moments.  Against my expectation I think Vyner has done slightly better, but in all probability they’ve been fairly equal.

1 hour ago, marcofisher said:

Spot on really. Most of the "he's not good enough sell him" brigade don't have a clue how valuable it is to have a versatile defender on half the wages that a replacement would cost. Money can be better invested in other areas.

Yes, the expectation of a squad from some posters has no thought of budget, playing time expectation of players, etc etc.

27 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Going on this season alone id have vyner over Moore, Taylor has been really disappointing so far this season

Just interested (see my point above) whether you had greater expectations of Moore than Vyner.

Also, worth remembering Moore had to play LCB too...Vyner played all 5 at RCB.

[JoeAman08]

I think Vyner is better than Moore personally. At least through the first 5 games. Vyner is perfect for that RCB role with his passing and crossing ability. His defending will only get better imo with more minutes.

For me Vyner Kalas and Mawson is our best 3. Is Baker a better defender? Yes but think he would need to play the central role and would push Kalas wide. Don’t think Kalas is as good an option wide in possession. 

[Kykoliko]

2 hours ago, Monkeh said:

Going on this season alone id have vyner over Moore, Taylor has been really disappointing so far this season

That honestly baffles me.

Then again I did read posts berating Moore for going to ground for Villa's first goal. Obviously telling him apart from Rowe is a struggle for some.

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, Kykoliko said:

That honestly baffles me.

Then again I did read posts berating Moore for going to ground for Villa's first goal. Obviously telling him apart from Rowe is a struggle for some.

I was one of them....I didn’t berate him though....just words along the lines of “Davis did Moore there”.  Thought it was him.

[JamesBCFC]

11 hours ago, Harry said:

Careful squire. You’re not allowed to start an individual player thread, saying he’s not good enough. (See responses to my Nagy thread).

Not as if there is a difference in tone and wording between your op and this threads op is it?

[Chappers]

First 4 games, 1 goal conceded, so the defence as a unit must be doing something right. Against Villa we had no defensive cover at LWB, and no experienced CB, so it was always going to be difficult, and they did as well as could be expected against a quality attack. We have two very good, young CB’s, plus Bakinson and Semenyo really stepping up. Let’s look on the positive side, it can only be good for the future.

[Red Ferret]

39 minutes ago, Chappers said:

First 4 games, 1 goal conceded, so the defence as a unit must be doing something right. Against Villa we had no defensive cover at LWB, and no experienced CB, so it was always going to be difficult, and they did as well as could be expected against a quality attack. We have two very good, young CB’s, plus Bakinson and Semenyo really stepping up. Let’s look on the positive side, it can only be good for the future.

Yep, let's cut our youngsters a bit of slack. Villa have spent Man City/Barca levels of money the last couple years. They were always going to beat us. There's zero need to start laying into our young players over this result, it's ridiculous 

[2015]

2 hours ago, Kykoliko said:

That honestly baffles me.

Then again I did read posts berating Moore for going to ground for Villa's first goal. Obviously telling him apart from Rowe is a struggle for some.

I certainly was effing and jeffing at home about Rowe when he did that. You don't just dive in like that, it was amateur defending.

[Kykoliko]

11 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I was one of them....I didn’t berate him though....just words along the lines of “Davis did Moore there”.  Thought it was him.

Sh*t happens!

It put it down to frustration momentarily eclipsing perception and reason. It was pretty laughable defending to be fair.

[Davefevs]

9 hours ago, 2015 said:

I certainly was effing and jeffing at home about Rowe when he did that. You don't just dive in like that, it was amateur defending.

Players make mistakes.