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Dean Holden vs B'mouth


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I'll collate my in match comments so people can see it's not hindsight.

Pre kick off 

"Ok fine with this team."

---

"Yeah the spare CM is the key for us, who it is, when and how they play will be key IMO! Whether covering, or being that overload in attack.

Fam needs to hold up the ball properly today, and we can't hoof it at him.

We got the big clues on selection, Wells dropped IMO as I thought before, Rowe 1st choice LWB, O'Dowda definitely next man up so formation over form (as Brunt and Bakinson both played well!), and the first team squad > positional flexibility for the bench.

I'm scared at the 1v1s wing back to wing back and their forwards to our left and right CBs!"

@ 60' 

"Jack Hunt's legs have gone in this game.

If we had another full back, I'd make a change here!"

@ 70'

"Put some fresh legs on, 1 fresh runner could literally win this for us."

 

So what happened was that we had three central midfielders on the bench but brought Opi Edwards who's lining up at RWB for the U-23s normally as the 19th/20th man along with Towler. Now if he's not good enough, why bring him? And why do we need three central midfielders on the bench? What happened to selecting the bench based on positional need which you've been talking about before Dean? When managers start changing the way they think to suit the outcome I get worried.

The goal literally comes from Jack Hunt being tired, and an O'Dowda lazy/tired clearance and another Zak Vyner (minor) error.

So when your central midfielders are visibly tiring and are unable to support attacks any more, and are struggling with their defensive duties because they're tired, why aren't we using our subs? You did bring three of them on the bench, what circumstance would you need all three?

Do you think he was scared/some sort of respect thing to leave a first team squad member out for the actual needed cover from the youth player? One of Nagy or Massengo, had basically no chance of coming on, Brunt was the change at CDM, and one of them was going to be the change for the 8. Unless you get an injury after those two subs then the third player there makes little to no sense.

It was an LJ problem, and i'm really beginning to think it's a Holden problem too, watching us play worse and worse and waiting for the opposition to score before doing something. He took off Semenyo, who was flagging, and we went back to the classic and awful isolated Diedhiou on his own up front. That shouldn't be happening from a guy who sat and watched it for years.

My subs would have been Martin for Semenyo and Edwards for Hunt at 60, and Nagy for O'Dowda at 70. Cue people telling me I should have applied *guffaw*, but I'm just saying these are pretty obvious things to me which I highlight ahead of them leading to goals against us.

So I'm not totally going to bury him, because we for large stretches of the game matched what I consider to be a better team, a team who I have in the top 5 at the end of the season and had enough chances to realistically take one and get ahead, but I kinda want the manager to handle his side of things too. Which I think he failed to do in bench selection and substitutes today.

So not a major rant, but I'd like more consistent thinking and more positive action taken from him. Both times we've tried to hang on, we've failed hard IMO. Think starting 11 made sense from his selection policy, and we played well with it, but after that initial first 11 choice, don't think he did well.

I'm generally ok with what we did today, and I hope we can improve from here.

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9 minutes ago, Prinny said:

I'll collate my in match comments so people can see it's not hindsight.

Pre kick off 

"Ok fine with this team."

---

"Yeah the spare CM is the key for us, who it is, when and how they play will be key IMO! Whether covering, or being that overload in attack.

Fam needs to hold up the ball properly today, and we can't hoof it at him.

We got the big clues on selection, Wells dropped IMO as I thought before, Rowe 1st choice LWB, O'Dowda definitely next man up so formation over form (as Brunt and Bakinson both played well!), and the first team squad > positional flexibility for the bench.

I'm scared at the 1v1s wing back to wing back and their forwards to our left and right CBs!"

@ 60' 

"Jack Hunt's legs have gone in this game.

If we had another full back, I'd make a change here!"

@ 70'

"Put some fresh legs on, 1 fresh runner could literally win this for us."

 

So what happened was that we had three central midfielders on the bench but brought Opi Edwards who's lining up at RWB for the U-23s normally as the 19th/20th man along with Towler. Now if he's not good enough, why bring him? And why do we need three central midfielders on the bench? What happened to selecting the bench based on positional need which you've been talking about before Dean? When managers start changing the way they think to suit the outcome I get worried.

The goal literally comes from Jack Hunt being tired, and an O'Dowda lazy/tired clearance and another Zak Vyner (minor) error.

So when your central midfielders are visibly tiring and are unable to support attacks any more, and are struggling with their defensive duties because they're tired, why aren't we using our subs? You did bring three of them on the bench, what circumstance would you need all three?

Do you think he was scared/some sort of respect thing to leave a first team squad member out for the actual needed cover from the youth player? One of Nagy or Massengo, had basically no chance of coming on, Brunt was the change at CDM, and one of them was going to be the change for the 8. Unless you get an injury after those two subs then the third player there makes little to no sense.

It was an LJ problem, and i'm really beginning to think it's a Holden problem too, watching us play worse and worse and waiting for the opposition to score before doing something. He took off Semenyo, who was flagging, and we went back to the classic and awful isolated Diedhiou on his own up front. That shouldn't be happening from a guy who sat and watched it for years.

My subs would have been Martin for Semenyo and Edwards for Hunt at 60, and Nagy for O'Dowda at 70. Cue people telling me I should have applied *guffaw*, but I'm just saying these are pretty obvious things to me which I highlight ahead of them leading to goals against us.

So I'm not totally going to bury him, because we for large stretches of the game matched what I consider to be a better team, a team who I have in the top 5 at the end of the season and had enough chances to realistically take one and get ahead, but I kinda want the manager to handle his side of things too. Which I think he failed to do in bench selection and substitutes today.

So not a major rant, but I'd like more consistent thinking and more positive action taken from him. Both times we've tried to hang on, we've failed hard IMO. Think starting 11 made sense from his selection policy, and we played well with it, but after that initial first 11 choice, don't think he did well.

I'm generally ok with what we did today, and I hope we can improve from here.

I’m gonna be honest with you...I’m sure it’s a great post, But I really can’t be bothered to read all that 

I’ll just add that this club will not finish above 9th or 10th with this man in charge 

We’re going nowhere on the pitch 

Edited by Andy082005
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8 minutes ago, Prinny said:

I'll collate my in match comments so people can see it's not hindsight.

Pre kick off 

"Ok fine with this team."

---

"Yeah the spare CM is the key for us, who it is, when and how they play will be key IMO! Whether covering, or being that overload in attack.

Fam needs to hold up the ball properly today, and we can't hoof it at him.

We got the big clues on selection, Wells dropped IMO as I thought before, Rowe 1st choice LWB, O'Dowda definitely next man up so formation over form (as Brunt and Bakinson both played well!), and the first team squad > positional flexibility for the bench.

I'm scared at the 1v1s wing back to wing back and their forwards to our left and right CBs!"

@ 60' 

"Jack Hunt's legs have gone in this game.

If we had another full back, I'd make a change here!"

@ 70'

"Put some fresh legs on, 1 fresh runner could literally win this for us."

 

So what happened was that we had three central midfielders on the bench but brought Opi Edwards who's lining up at RWB for the U-23s normally as the 19th/20th man along with Towler. Now if he's not good enough, why bring him? And why do we need three central midfielders on the bench? What happened to selecting the bench based on positional need which you've been talking about before Dean? When managers start changing the way they think to suit the outcome I get worried.

The goal literally comes from Jack Hunt being tired, and an O'Dowda lazy/tired clearance and another Zak Vyner (minor) error.

So when your central midfielders are visibly tiring and are unable to support attacks any more, and are struggling with their defensive duties because they're tired, why aren't we using our subs? You did bring three of them on the bench, what circumstance would you need all three?

Do you think he was scared/some sort of respect thing to leave a first team squad member out for the actual needed cover from the youth player? One of Nagy or Massengo, had basically no chance of coming on, Brunt was the change at CDM, and one of them was going to be the change for the 8. Unless you get an injury after those two subs then the third player there makes little to no sense.

It was an LJ problem, and i'm really beginning to think it's a Holden problem too, watching us play worse and worse and waiting for the opposition to score before doing something. He took off Semenyo, who was flagging, and we went back to the classic and awful isolated Diedhiou on his own up front. That shouldn't be happening from a guy who sat and watched it for years.

My subs would have been Martin for Semenyo and Edwards for Hunt at 60, and Nagy for O'Dowda at 70. Cue people telling me I should have applied *guffaw*, but I'm just saying these are pretty obvious things to me which I highlight ahead of them leading to goals against us.

So I'm not totally going to bury him, because we for large stretches of the game matched what I consider to be a better team, a team who I have in the top 5 at the end of the season and had enough chances to realistically take one and get ahead, but I kinda want the manager to handle his side of things too. Which I think he failed to do in bench selection and substitutes today.

So not a major rant, but I'd like more consistent thinking and more positive action taken from him. Both times we've tried to hang on, we've failed hard IMO. Think starting 11 made sense from his selection policy, and we played well with it, but after that initial first 11 choice, don't think he did well.

I'm generally ok with what we did today, and I hope we can improve from here.

Who the **** is Edwards?

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Proactive managers make substitutions to change things for the better as they see it. They tend to get on with it and don’t wait for things to deteriorate too far in terms of performance. If I recall correctly Bielsa made an unenforceable change 21 minutes into the first half last week.

Unfortunately Holden seems to have already become a reactive manager. And we have just had 4 years of frustration with one of those, which ultimately didn’t take us forward as a club.

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Legs in midfield and not defending as a team cost us @Prinny.  We defended as an outfield 10 decently first half.

Bournemouth pushed on Kelly and Mepham and we didn’t get across the pitch quickly enough to protect our WBs, either in midfield or with our forwards.

Thats no disrespect to Pato and O’Dowda...but as the side CMers they ran out of steam....Callum in his first start no surprise.  He had a decent first half.  Same with Fam and Antoine, they couldn’t cover the width that Bournemouth started to use.

Therefore wingbacks get forced back, get overloaded.

Hunt tired too as a result of in combination....you decide.

My sub(s) was Pato off and Diedhiou off.  Pato tired and therefore he gets lazy / sloppy.  Diedhiou gave us a good hour, but then needed changing.  You can decide who to bring on, but it needed to be done earlier, whoever it was that come on.

 

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8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

My sub(s) was Pato off and Diedhiou off.  Pato tired and therefore he gets lazy / sloppy.  Diedhiou gave us a good hour, but then needed changing.  You can decide who to bring on, but it needed to be done earlier, whoever it was that come on.

 

This. It’s the easy conclusion to say “game of two halves”, and for Radio Bristol to applaud Deans honesty for saying that was irksome. Put simply, we were second best for a long time in that second half and the ball wasnt “sticking” out so we had wave after wave to defend - no wonder the WBs tired. At an hour, the subs to make were Martin and Brunt for Fam and a Pato to get that control of the ball. It was blindingly obvious, and when we did make the change it was one that invited more pressure.

Really think DH got it badly wrong tonight in the second half, and the loss for me goes to his door.

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3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Legs in midfield and not defending as a team cost us @Prinny.  We defended as an outfield 10 decently first half.

Bournemouth pushed on Kelly and Mepham and we didn’t get across the pitch quickly enough to protect our WBs, either in midfield or with our forwards.

Thats no disrespect to Pato and O’Dowda...but as the side CMers they ran out of steam....Callum in his first start no surprise.  He had a decent first half.  Same with Fam and Antoine, they couldn’t cover the width that Bournemouth started to use.

Therefore wingbacks get forced back, get overloaded.

Hunt tired too as a result of in combination....you decide.

My sub(s) was Pato off and Diedhiou off.  Pato tired and therefore he gets lazy / sloppy.  Diedhiou gave us a good hour, but then needed changing.  You can decide who to bring on, but it needed to be done earlier, whoever it was that come on.

 

Dave looking at us without analysing overloads, correct passes at the right time etc. Then going back before all this data was available and looking at this City side like you would have back when say you were playing. 

Do you see a promotion challenge based on guts, skill and will to win in this squad?

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Maybe it’s time for a formation change for Saturday. Players tired and loss of form. Maybe 442 or 433 . Paterson needs to be given a rest. But with Weimann injured SS sold to Peterborough and Palmer loaned to Swansea our options in that position are now unbelievably short . Maybe COD can affect the game more if he is played higher up the pitch in the Paterson role. But Holden needs to freshen it up

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1 minute ago, stephenkibby. said:

Dave looking at us without analysing overloads, correct passes at the right time etc. Then going back before all this data was available and looking at this City side like you would have back when say you were playing. 

Do you see a promotion challenge based on guts, skill and will to win in this squad?

I think we are in with a chance (playoff) like several other teams.  I do see guts, yes?  Kalas as captain epitomises this.  I really want to see Williams in our team.  I do think he provides that grit in CM.

I do think Holden needs to think about Nagy or Massengo on Saturday.  

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I agree with making the changes much earlier around the hour mark. That was obvious at the time, too.

It’s difficult to say who should’ve come off as several of them were tiring. Hunt’s legs had gone, Pato was done, Diedhiou and COD were understandably lacking match fitness, so take your pick. I’d have gone with Nagy for Pato, Martin for Diedhiou, Dasilva for Rowe.

There are two points for me - 1) If Nagy, Massengo or Dasilva have roles to play in the near future, as Holden suggests, it’s worth getting minutes into their legs now to get them up to speed. 2) the subs were made 20 minutes too late, and that’s the bigger issue. 
 

Edited by tin
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Just now, Red Army 75 said:

Maybe it’s time for a formation change for Saturday. Players tired and loss of form. Maybe 442 or 433 . Paterson needs to be given a rest. But with Weimann injured SS sold to Peterborough and Palmer loaned to Swansea our options in that position are now unbelievably short . Maybe COD can affect the game more if he is played higher up the pitch in the Paterson role. But Holden needs to freshen it up

I thought he did ok today, but tired quickly second half.  There were two occasions he broke forward and both times chose to pass to Semenyo....once Antoine ran offside, second time, Kelly tackled Semenyo.  I think he has to go one stage further and really commit their defence.  That’s where the opening comes from. 

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1 minute ago, tin said:

I agree with making the changes much earlier around the hour mark. That was obvious at the time, too.

It’s difficult to say who should’ve come off as several of them were tiring. Hunt’s legs had gone, Pato was done, Diedhiou and COD were understandably lacking match fitness, so take your pick.

I’d have gone with Nagy for Pato, Martin for Diedhiou, Dasilva for Rowe. If Nagy, Massengo or Dasilva have roles to play in the near future, as Holden suggests, it’s worth getting minutes into their legs now to get them up to speed. 
 

I think it needed freshening whoever you bring on.

1 minute ago, GlastonburyRed said:

The worrying thing for me how tired/leggy things got, added to the fact we are losing members of the squad, and that the action doesn't let up in Nov. 

It doesn’t but I think lots of teams will find the same issues....albeit we are now running with a smaller squad until at least the break.

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

I thought he did ok today, but tired quickly second half.  There were two occasions he broke forward and both times chose to pass to Semenyo....once Antoine ran offside, second time, Kelly tackled Semenyo.  I think he has to go one stage further and really commit their defence.  That’s where the opening comes from. 

It’s no coincidence Dave but since the Middlesbrough game were JP had an absolute shocker along with the rest. We are barely creating anything. And it just reminds me so much of when LJ was in charge. JP on his day is absolute quality but he is so inconsistent . 

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16 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

This. It’s the easy conclusion to say “game of two halves”, and for Radio Bristol to applaud Deans honesty for saying that was irksome. Put simply, we were second best for a long time in that second half and the ball wasnt “sticking” out so we had wave after wave to defend - no wonder the WBs tired. At an hour, the subs to make were Martin and Brunt for Fam and a Pato to get that control of the ball. It was blindingly obvious, and when we did make the change it was one that invited more pressure.

Really think DH got it badly wrong tonight in the second half, and the loss for me goes to his door.

I thought the amazing shift they put in first half and playing on the front foot probably meant we had to score to have any realistic chance of winning or even drawing the game, because it was unlikely we could keep that going for the full 90 against a team of their quality.

In a way it did work in creating 4 very good chances and Bournemouth relying on a fantastic save by Begovic to keep Bakinson out.

2nd half was disappointing but they have some top players. Considering how tired we looked I thought we were battling very well to nearly take a point.

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26 minutes ago, Red Army 75 said:

It’s no coincidence Dave but since the Middlesbrough game were JP had an absolute shocker along with the rest. We are barely creating anything. And it just reminds me so much of when LJ was in charge. JP on his day is absolute quality but he is so inconsistent . 

We created two one on ones...one header cleared off the line...one header Fam heads with his shoulder...one Bakinson shot.  All in the first half.  Wells or Martin probably take one of those.

Pato needs a rest.

We managed to actually ride the 2nd half pressure around the 70 minute mark for about 5 mins....Semenyo got a knock and we used his injury to re-compose ourselves.  But it was short lived unfortunately.

4D029AF8-1B61-48F3-BFEB-6DFF3278C14E.thumb.jpeg.51aac97d25ba7a0fad63574d2c1641a9.jpeg

For a bit of context we’ve now played 4 top 10 getting 4 points, and 4 bottom 7, getting 10 points.

 

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Too many players out of position re Pato/AW basic lessons you would have thought he would have learned from LJ. PLAY PEOPLE TO THIER STRENGTHS simple Dean, give yourself a chance, be your own man and please put people in their familiar roles!! Our 2nd choice left back is a better CM than Pato and AW will ever be, give BAKINSON a chance by playing him with CM’s not playing people out of position. I genuinely want you to succeed, you are very credible and likeable so please grasp this once in a lifetime opportunity and show us what you can do, after all you knew what you were stepping into. Please don’t make the mistakes of your old boss!! BORO last season is gone, move on 

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Legs in midfield and not defending as a team cost us @Prinny.  We defended as an outfield 10 decently first half.

Bournemouth pushed on Kelly and Mepham and we didn’t get across the pitch quickly enough to protect our WBs, either in midfield or with our forwards.

Thats no disrespect to Pato and O’Dowda...but as the side CMers they ran out of steam....Callum in his first start no surprise.  He had a decent first half.  Same with Fam and Antoine, they couldn’t cover the width that Bournemouth started to use.

Therefore wingbacks get forced back, get overloaded.

Hunt tired too as a result of in combination....you decide.

My sub(s) was Pato off and Diedhiou off.  Pato tired and therefore he gets lazy / sloppy.  Diedhiou gave us a good hour, but then needed changing.  You can decide who to bring on, but it needed to be done earlier, whoever it was that come on.

 

Agree with those subs and it was painfully obvious for all to see that our wingbacks and midfielders were flagging, but the manager did nothing about it. Again.

I want Holden to succeed but he's making the same amateurish decisions that LJ did. Why have 3 CMs on the bench if you're not going to use them?

 

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Been pretty impressed with DH this season after being sceptical about his appointment, but last night was the worst game management we've seen from him yet.

As has been said, we'll find out the real Dean Holden after a string of poor results.

"We absolutely dominated the first half. We had gilt-edged chances, and didn't take them.

"We passed the ball so well they couldn't get near us at times.

I watched the game and although we were decent, I wouldn't say they couldn't get near us at times.

It was a pretty even game at HT.

 

Edited by AppyDAZE
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12 hours ago, Prinny said:

It was an LJ problem, and i'm really beginning to think it's a Holden problem too, watching us play worse and worse and waiting for the opposition to score before doing something. He took off Semenyo, who was flagging, and we went back to the classic and awful isolated Diedhiou on his own up front. That shouldn't be happening from a guy who sat and watched it for years.

Funny thing is, I remember one game where Johnson did the unexpected and it worked. Can't remember which game but a tight one, where LJ brought on forwards. It changed the dynamic and put us on the front foot for the last part of the game. Last night holding off while all of the midfield were shattered, then changing a striker for an extra midfielder made no sense. Made us sit more with tired legs and gave them even more momentum. Then the usual knee jerk throw forwards on after a goal. I really hope he learns from that.

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4 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

Funny thing is, I remember one game where Johnson did the unexpected and it worked. Can't remember which game but a tight one, where LJ brought on forwards. It changed the dynamic and put us on the front foot for the last part of the game. Last night holding off while all of the midfield were shattered, then changing a striker for an extra midfielder made no sense. Made us sit more with tired legs and gave them even more momentum. Then the usual knee jerk throw forwards on after a goal. I really hope he learns from that.

He pushed Pato up alongside Diedhiou when Brunt came on initially so we retained the 352.

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8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

He pushed Pato up alongside Diedhiou when Brunt came on initially so we retained the 352.

Yeah, I noticed that. By that time though Pato was seriously flagging and wasn't getting around the pitch like he had. I thought Wells in a straight swap might have helped pin the back a little, specially after AS got that knock.

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50 minutes ago, AppyDAZE said:

Been pretty impressed with DH this season after being sceptical about his appointment, but last night was the worst game management we've seen from him yet.

As has been said, we'll find out the real Dean Holden after a string of poor results.

"We absolutely dominated the first half. We had gilt-edged chances, and didn't take them.

"We passed the ball so well they couldn't get near us at times.

I watched the game and although we were decent, I wouldn't say they couldn't get near us at times.

It was a pretty even game at HT.

 

We had the better of the first half and definitely had the better chances but weren't dominating by any stretch. Certainly not to the extent that they did in the second.

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DH needs to be more decisive. Subs were required on 60 minutes to freshen up players that looked tired. Subbing on 80 minutes was far too late im afraid. 

Also how good is Josh King? He will piss allover the Championship if he stays

I thought our first half was excellent last night, and we just need a few players back for more strength in depth. I cannot wait to see Joe Williams in the middle of the park - he could be a significant piece in the puzzle

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So while i see disagreement on which players to take off from the tired ones, Semenyo, Diedhiou, O'Dowda, Paterson, Hunt, (Rowe?) which is fair, after all there were lots of tired players out there, I think there's a general consensus that doing nothing much, was definitely the wrong thing, and it was seen at the time, not with hindsight.

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59 minutes ago, Prinny said:

So while i see disagreement on which players to take off from the tired ones, Semenyo, Diedhiou, O'Dowda, Paterson, Hunt, (Rowe?) which is fair, after all there were lots of tired players out there, I think there's a general consensus that doing nothing much, was definitely the wrong thing, and it was seen at the time, not with hindsight.

My notes and texts to my dad and also to @headhuntersaid the same.

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