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New World Order


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3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Any links to this? I had vaguely heard or read about reduced Parachute Payments and TV rights awards- inevitable of course in the circumstances- but things went quiet and there was a lack of detail in the reports.

It's buried in the Premier T&C's I recall.  I think there are 3 elements; one a minimum guaranteed sum, one a % of profits from certain commercial activities, plus a discretionary sum agreed by the club's themselves. Whilst the first is non-negotiable the other two are not and with shareholders to think about they weren't inclined to be as generous as previous years.

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1 hour ago, Mr X said:

Athletic Bilbao have maintained their Basque only policy and have never been relegated from La Liga and regularly play in European competition so they've managed to be very successful while just using local players. 

If we had a squad comprising solely of all the best players born/brought up within 30 miles of Bristol I think we would probably be in the same position we're in now!    

As I say, a lovely idea. Would be great to see. But for starters, for a club the size of Bilbao staying in La Liga is a damn sight easier than City staying in the Championship.

History tells us that - at any given time - our city and its environs produce few top class footballers.

Of the very best ones, most of them either never play for City or Rovers - Eddie Hapgood, captain of Arsenal and England but not so much as one appearance for either club - or don't stay long enough to make a difference, i.e. they're too good and so attract attention from the bigger clubs almost straight away - Roy Bentley played at a World Cup for England and captained Chelsea to their first League championship but was sold by City for a pittance after little more than a few war time games. Cliff Britton played for Everton and in midfield for England with Joe Mercer and Stan Cullis. Everton's record goalscorer Dixie Dean said he was so good, Britton could cross the ball and make sure, when Dean went to head it, the laces on the ball were facing away from him. Britton played for Rovers for about 5 minutes. Gary Mabbutt scarpered for the bright lights at the first available chance, and who can blame him.

I could go on, our city just haven't produced enough top class players, at any given time you care to mention, to sustain success the Bilbao way. A shame but there we are. 

How do we change that historical trend? I suppose if we could stop the really good ones being tempted away in the first place, either when they're young and coming through the Academy (Herbie Kane, Jacob Maddox, doubtless a few other more recent ones I can't remember) or when they've made a name for themselves in our first team (Bobby Reid, Joe Bryan) we might give ourselves half a chance of bucking that trend. In my opinion, the only way to do that is to become a Premier League team ourselves. Just one of several reasons why promotion is the next logical, possibly essential, step for City to take.  

In the meantime, the rugby club will show us how it's done - for all the headline grabbing signings, they have half a dozen genuine first teamers who are born and bred Bristolians - one from Ashton, for heaven's sake! You'll find a Bristolian or two in plenty of the other top flight teams too - get those players home and Bristol would have an almighty team. Whatsmore, the city of Bristol has always produced world class, not top class, world class, rugby players. I'm not sure we'll ever say the same about the football club. Here's hoping!

 

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4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

And that’s the contradiction to everything MA said about re-contracting the OOC players.

It’s not very consistent to say one thing about OOC players and then say you’ve offered another player the best ever contract.  You open yourself up, especially after blurting stuff out to Sky (whether deliberate or not).

Can we please knock this Fam being offered the 'best ever contract' nonsense on the head? The quote was:

'We made him an offer at the back end of the summer. That was one of the biggest contract offers that this football club has ever made to a player.' 

So, a very good offer but, not as much as some (Wells, for example, at a guess) are on.

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11 hours ago, Davefevs said:

And that’s the contradiction to everything MA said about re-contracting the OOC players.

It’s not very consistent to say one thing about OOC players and then say you’ve offered another player the best ever contract.  You open yourself up, especially after blurting stuff out to Sky (whether deliberate or not).

What specifically do you mean when you say ‘everything MA said about reconstructing the OOC players?’ 

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10 hours ago, Harry said:

 

Exactly Dave. 
I think everyone completely accepts the Walsh (and other ooc’s) situation with finances. Without income, we have no idea what we can pay. Everyone should quite clearly accept that line of thought. 
 

However, that line of thought bears no resemblance to the one which offers Fam a club-record wage, and then brings players in (Lansbury), or attempts to (Assombalonga) who are currently earning a combined £80k per week. 
 

That’s the baffling element. “We don’t know our budget, so we can’t offer ooc’s”, but “we’ll bring in other players on massive wages”. 
 

I honestly don’t know what we are trying to achieve at the moment. 
 

As for the wider debate, it’s gonna be an interesting year or two for sure. 
The salary cap could be the main thing that swings the finances back in favour of the clubs rather than the players & agents. 
Whatever the solution, there will be a rethink over the next year and it’s gonna be interesting to see how it plays out. I wonder if you may still have some clubs who ‘overspend’ now, in the knowledge that contracts they offer now won’t be affected once the cap comes in. 
Could the very rich chairman be willing to subsidise high wages on long contracts to get round the upcoming salary cap. 
As far as I know, if a cap came in, then existing contracts are just capped off at a certain level - so the player can still receive his £50k pw but until the contract expires it goes into the books as £13k pw, being the maximum allowable. 
Could some clubs offer high wages on 5,6,7 year contracts, just to get the better players in now and circumvent the cap when it arrives?? Will be some intriguing moves, I think. 

Like I wrote, I agree on Fammy. Although if they assume he is a readily saleable asset then I guess it makes a bit more sense. I think MA must have a bit of trust built up that he knows how to play the transfer market in terms of player value  

And Lansbury is just until end of season. So they have more visibility of his affordability - his deal doesn’t involve the kind of speculating about appropriate benchmark wages that longer term deals involve.

And, if they are bringing in players, it means they still think playoffs are on so they haven’t given up on season. Which all fans should be happy about  

On Assombolonga- given it never progressed past press talk I don’t think that should factor into the conversation as we don’t know how true it ever was or the details. The 2m for a player ooc in 6 months always seemed far fetched. 

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8 hours ago, Colemanballs said:

Can we please knock this Fam being offered the 'best ever contract' nonsense on the head? The quote was:

'We made him an offer at the back end of the summer. That was one of the biggest contract offers that this football club has ever made to a player.' 

So, a very good offer but, not as much as some (Wells, for example, at a guess) are on.

Because I lazily left a few words off, because the sentiments are the same....we’ve offered him a big contract. Guesswork in the £25k pw range....as he allegedly wants £30k pw.

2 hours ago, the1stknowle said:

What specifically do you mean when you say ‘everything MA said about reconstructing the OOC players?’ 

Typo, re-contracting.

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10 hours ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

As I say, a lovely idea. Would be great to see. But for starters, for a club the size of Bilbao staying in La Liga is a damn sight easier than City staying in the Championship.

History tells us that - at any given time - our city and its environs produce few top class footballers.

Of the very best ones, most of them either never play for City or Rovers - Eddie Hapgood, captain of Arsenal and England but not so much as one appearance for either club - or don't stay long enough to make a difference, i.e. they're too good and so attract attention from the bigger clubs almost straight away - Roy Bentley played at a World Cup for England and captained Chelsea to their first League championship but was sold by City for a pittance after little more than a few war time games. Cliff Britton played for Everton and in midfield for England with Joe Mercer and Stan Cullis. Everton's record goalscorer Dixie Dean said he was so good, Britton could cross the ball and make sure, when Dean went to head it, the laces on the ball were facing away from him. Britton played for Rovers for about 5 minutes. Gary Mabbutt scarpered for the bright lights at the first available chance, and who can blame him.

I could go on, our city just haven't produced enough top class players, at any given time you care to mention, to sustain success the Bilbao way. A shame but there we are. 

How do we change that historical trend? I suppose if we could stop the really good ones being tempted away in the first place, either when they're young and coming through the Academy (Herbie Kane, Jacob Maddox, doubtless a few other more recent ones I can't remember) or when they've made a name for themselves in our first team (Bobby Reid, Joe Bryan) we might give ourselves half a chance of bucking that trend. In my opinion, the only way to do that is to become a Premier League team ourselves. Just one of several reasons why promotion is the next logical, possibly essential, step for City to take.  

In the meantime, the rugby club will show us how it's done - for all the headline grabbing signings, they have half a dozen genuine first teamers who are born and bred Bristolians - one from Ashton, for heaven's sake! You'll find a Bristolian or two in plenty of the other top flight teams too - get those players home and Bristol would have an almighty team. Whatsmore, the city of Bristol has always produced world class, not top class, world class, rugby players. I'm not sure we'll ever say the same about the football club. Here's hoping!

 

Good post @Merrick's Marvels

As someone involved in Grassroots football in North Somerset, I can say the biggest problem to youth football is the lack of  competitive football academies in this area.

If you look around the country, most large cities have large numbers of academies that produce high quality players at a young age; that then progress into professional clubs academies.

Around this area, we only have JPL; Inner City; and North Somerset Academy really. There is not the infrastructure to identify players at a young age (10 or younger); and progress them through.

We also lose a lot of players to rugby at around the age of 14/15, if they are 100% dedicated to playing football.

Yeovil have pretty much closed their academy. WSM shut down large number of their teams when they were relegated from Conference South; and teams like Clevedon (where I live); and pottering around in tier 9. These clubs are not really going to produce the type of players you need at Elite level.

The other consideration is that City have had a problem in the last few years bringing the Under 23s into the first team fold. At least they are being named on the bench now (due to injuries). If you don't give the youth a chance to play with your elite players in league games; how are they going to develop?

A bit of catch 22 situation, you want to be competitive in the Championship, at the same time as developing youth. Well you need to give youth a chance to show what they can do.

Fingers crossed that players like Sam Pearson, Louis Britton, Sam Bell, Vince Harper, the Edwards brothers etc get chances in the remainder of the season to show their potential.

The success of the Under 23s this season, show that there are some players there to invest in.

Maybe at the end of this season with so many players leaving, we will give these youngsters a chance.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

As I say, a lovely idea. Would be great to see. But for starters, for a club the size of Bilbao staying in La Liga is a damn sight easier than City staying in the Championship.

History tells us that - at any given time - our city and its environs produce few top class footballers.

Of the very best ones, most of them either never play for City or Rovers - Eddie Hapgood, captain of Arsenal and England but not so much as one appearance for either club - or don't stay long enough to make a difference, i.e. they're too good and so attract attention from the bigger clubs almost straight away - Roy Bentley played at a World Cup for England and captained Chelsea to their first League championship but was sold by City for a pittance after little more than a few war time games. Cliff Britton played for Everton and in midfield for England with Joe Mercer and Stan Cullis. Everton's record goalscorer Dixie Dean said he was so good, Britton could cross the ball and make sure, when Dean went to head it, the laces on the ball were facing away from him. Britton played for Rovers for about 5 minutes. Gary Mabbutt scarpered for the bright lights at the first available chance, and who can blame him.

I could go on, our city just haven't produced enough top class players, at any given time you care to mention, to sustain success the Bilbao way. A shame but there we are. 

How do we change that historical trend? I suppose if we could stop the really good ones being tempted away in the first place, either when they're young and coming through the Academy (Herbie Kane, Jacob Maddox, doubtless a few other more recent ones I can't remember) or when they've made a name for themselves in our first team (Bobby Reid, Joe Bryan) we might give ourselves half a chance of bucking that trend. In my opinion, the only way to do that is to become a Premier League team ourselves. Just one of several reasons why promotion is the next logical, possibly essential, step for City to take.  

In the meantime, the rugby club will show us how it's done - for all the headline grabbing signings, they have half a dozen genuine first teamers who are born and bred Bristolians - one from Ashton, for heaven's sake! You'll find a Bristolian or two in plenty of the other top flight teams too - get those players home and Bristol would have an almighty team. Whatsmore, the city of Bristol has always produced world class, not top class, world class, rugby players. I'm not sure we'll ever say the same about the football club. Here's hoping!

 

You can only use the past tense there.  The only reason we haven't is because of the historically  poorly run clubs and academies.  There are clear attempts to change this though -we are clearly a lot more professional than we once were.  Establishing a pathway to the side consistently is one step.  As you say being in the Premier League would massively help too. Having a charismatic leader as well would also help. It's not as if we  have some physical or social barrier to success.  It's a product of the game in the area being tin pot for generations.

I think the shambolic organisation of the game locally has played a part.  Having 2 competing County FAs based away from Bristol is utterly counter productive. There are Manchester, London and Birmingham FAs.   The Manchester FA is incorporated into the Etihad complex!   In contrast In Rugby Bristol have always stood at the centre of a strong rugby culture.  

This dysfunctionality has been very convenient for certain other clubs as it has allowed them to steal local players away.

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4 minutes ago, ncnsbcfc said:

Good post @Merrick's Marvels

As someone involved in Grassroots football in North Somerset, I can say the biggest problem to youth football is the lack of  competitive football academies in this area.

If you look around the country, most large cities have large numbers of academies that produce high quality players at a young age; that then progress into professional clubs academies.

Around this area, we only have JPL; Inner City; and North Somerset Academy really. There is not the infrastructure to identify players at a young age (10 or younger); and progress them through.

We also lose a lot of players to rugby at around the age of 14/15, if they are 100% dedicated to playing football.

Yeovil have pretty much closed their academy. WSM shut down large number of their teams when they were relegated from Conference South; and teams like Clevedon (where I live); and pottering around in tier 9. These clubs are not really going to produce the type of players you need at Elite level.

The other consideration is that City have had a problem in the last few years bringing the Under 23s into the first team fold. At least they are being named on the bench now (due to injuries). If you don't give the youth a chance to play with your elite players in league games; how are they going to develop?

A bit of catch 22 situation, you want to be competitive in the Championship, at the same time as developing youth. Well you need to give youth a chance to show what they can do.

Fingers crossed that players like Sam Pearson, Louis Britton, Sam Bell, Vince Harper, the Edwards brothers etc get chances in the remainder of the season to show their potential.

The success of the Under 23s this season, show that there are some players there to invest in.

Maybe at the end of this season with so many players leaving, we will give these youngsters a chance.

 

 

That's a well argued and thought provoking post but here's an alternate take. I think one of the major issues in development of talent ARE the academies themselves. I'll explain.

Where I live the major academies were requisitioned for the Olympics and were forever lost to football/sport (yeah **** you Lord Coe and your supposed sporting legacy.) Kids like my own son went in droves, were proud to be associated with an 'academy' (in this case Charlton were badged,) but the reality was the fundamental requirement to thrive there was the ability of parents to pay the subs, talent had little to do with it. Likewise, Charlton itself run many of their own schools and academic courses. You see and hear kids strutting the streets saying :"I'm training/trialling with/for...." save they really aren't. They think they're on the path to glory and riches. 

Whilst I understand the reasons for so doing, I think academies have gone too far in removing the relevance of 'football' to the skills they teach. Lots of kids with tricks and skills, nice touch but crap footballers in a team sport. Many only realise what competitive football comprises at a very late age only to realise it isn't for them.

Here is where the forward thinking grassroots clubs come into it. One mate coaches at Cray Valley PM (late of recent cup glory) who a few years back heavily invested in developing their feeder teams and pitch (which is excellent.) They select and develop restricted numbers to fulfill the squads they run, but selection is based on talent (not subs) and a limited though vital element of competitive play is incorporated. They align with the local FA and League representative teams such better kids (the two Eisa brothers are a good example,) progress. An interesting impact is the more talented and ambitious youngsters understand they've a better route into football by going with the likes of Cray than they have of going through The Charlton or Millwall route. This window Cray lost another two players to the National League, but they do so with the club's blessing. It's about development and progression. Cray know their place within the community and kids with no allegiance know it also. The interesting feature is the majority of kids going through such clubs are Black. The reason for highlighting ethnicity is they tend not to have a familial disposition toward any local club, if anything it's only a most tentative allegiance to one of the big 6 whom they've only seen on TV.

I truly believe kids with the ability to make it thrive better if they've played regular, competitive football (that doesn't have to be matches a week,) than those for who life comprises training session after coaching session.

City produce tons of kids with 'touch' who are crap footballers. They sign supposed top talent from star academies (Mark Flatts springs to mind,) genius in the warm up, thinking of a career in McDonald's when subject to the first crunching tackle they've ever encountered. 

My mates who live local to Bristol and who watch both our U23s and local football inform that, in their esteemed opinion, our players would better thrive were they regularly turning out for the likes of The Mangos than the contrived nonsense of our U23s, where it is said it's more about keeping them fit and uninjured than developing any competitive, winning edge. That's why we have the likes of Semenyo and Bakinson, players who appear to be pleased with their contributions at a personal level when they've delivered the square root of zip from a team perspective. That their coaches think likewise IS the problem.

 

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18 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

That's a well argued and thought provoking post but here's an alternate take. I think one of the major issues in development of talent ARE the academies themselves. I'll explain.

Where I live the major academies were requisitioned for the Olympics and were forever lost to football/sport (yeah **** you Lord Coe and your supposed sporting legacy.) Kids like my own son went in droves, were proud to be associated with an 'academy' (in this case Charlton were badged,) but the reality was the fundamental requirement to thrive there was the ability of parents to pay the subs, talent had little to do with it. Likewise, Charlton itself run many of their own schools and academic courses. You see and hear kids strutting the streets saying :"I'm training/trialling with/for...." save they really aren't. They think they're on the path to glory and riches. 

Whilst I understand the reasons for so doing, I think academies have gone too far in removing the relevance of 'football' to the skills they teach. Lots of kids with tricks and skills, nice touch but crap footballers in a team sport. Many only realise what competitive football comprises at a very late age only to realise it isn't for them.

Here is where the forward thinking grassroots clubs come into it. One mate coaches at Cray Valley PM (late of recent cup glory) who a few years back heavily invested in developing their feeder teams and pitch (which is excellent.) They select and develop restricted numbers to fulfill the squads they run, but selection is based on talent (not subs) and a limited though vital element of competitive play is incorporated. They align with the local FA and League representative teams such better kids (the two Eisa brothers are a good example,) progress. An interesting impact is the more talented and ambitious youngsters understand they've a better route into football by going with the likes of Cray than they have of going through The Charlton or Millwall route. This window Cray lost another two players to the National League, but they do so with the club's blessing. It's about development and progression. Cray know their place within the community and kids with no allegiance know it also. The interesting feature is the majority of kids going through such clubs are Black. The reason for highlighting ethnicity is they tend not to have a familial disposition toward any local club, if anything it's only a most tentative allegiance to one of the big 6 whom they've only seen on TV.

I truly believe kids with the ability to make it thrive better if they've played regular, competitive football (that doesn't have to be matches a week,) than those for who life comprises training session after coaching session.

City produce tons of kids with 'touch' who are crap footballers. They sign supposed top talent from star academies (Mark Flatts springs to mind,) genius in the warm up, thinking of a career in McDonald's when subject to the first crunching tackle they've ever encountered. 

My mates who live local to Bristol and who watch both our U23s and local football inform that, in their esteemed opinion, our players would better thrive were they regularly turning out for the likes of The Mangos than the contrived nonsense of our U23s, where it is said it's more about keeping them fit and uninjured than developing any competitive, winning edge. That's why we have the likes of Semenyo and Bakinson, players who appear to be pleased with their contributions at a personal level when they've delivered the square root of zip from a team perspective. That their coaches think likewise IS the problem.

 

You make some good points but it falls to pieces at the end. Bakinson and Semenyo  have graduated to the first team having spent some time playing in the EFL.   The point of the loans was to give them the competitive edge that the under 23s lacks. 

 

It's arguable that Bakinson has been held back by our collection of overrated 'pros' . He only came into the side out of necessity.

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1 hour ago, ncnsbcfc said:

Good post @Merrick's Marvels

As someone involved in Grassroots football in North Somerset, I can say the biggest problem to youth football is the lack of  competitive football academies in this area.

If you look around the country, most large cities have large numbers of academies that produce high quality players at a young age; that then progress into professional clubs academies.

Around this area, we only have JPL; Inner City; and North Somerset Academy really. There is not the infrastructure to identify players at a young age (10 or younger); and progress them through.

We also lose a lot of players to rugby at around the age of 14/15, if they are 100% dedicated to playing football.

Yeovil have pretty much closed their academy. WSM shut down large number of their teams when they were relegated from Conference South; and teams like Clevedon (where I live); and pottering around in tier 9. These clubs are not really going to produce the type of players you need at Elite level.

The other consideration is that City have had a problem in the last few years bringing the Under 23s into the first team fold. At least they are being named on the bench now (due to injuries). If you don't give the youth a chance to play with your elite players in league games; how are they going to develop?

A bit of catch 22 situation, you want to be competitive in the Championship, at the same time as developing youth. Well you need to give youth a chance to show what they can do.

Fingers crossed that players like Sam Pearson, Louis Britton, Sam Bell, Vince Harper, the Edwards brothers etc get chances in the remainder of the season to show their potential.

The success of the Under 23s this season, show that there are some players there to invest in.

Maybe at the end of this season with so many players leaving, we will give these youngsters a chance.

 

 

 

36 minutes ago, The Bard said:

You can only use the past tense there.  The only reason we haven't is because of the historically  poorly run clubs and academies.  There are clear attempts to change this though -we are clearly a lot more professional than we once were.  Establishing a pathway to the side consistently is one step.  As you say being in the Premier League would massively help too. Having a charismatic leader as well would also help. It's not as if we  have some physical or social barrier to success.  It's a product of the game in the area being tin pot for generations.

I think the shambolic organisation of the game locally has played a part.  Having 2 competing County FAs based away from Bristol is utterly counter productive. There are Manchester, London and Birmingham FAs.   The Manchester FA is incorporated into the Etihad complex!   In contrast In Rugby Bristol have always stood at the centre of a strong rugby culture.  

This dysfunctionality has been very convenient for certain other clubs as it has allowed them to steal local players away.

 

36 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

That's a well argued and thought provoking post but here's an alternate take. I think one of the major issues in development of talent ARE the academies themselves. I'll explain.

Where I live the major academies were requisitioned for the Olympics and were forever lost to football/sport (yeah **** you Lord Coe and your supposed sporting legacy.) Kids like my own son went in droves, were proud to be associated with an 'academy' (in this case Charlton were badged,) but the reality was the fundamental requirement to thrive there was the ability of parents to pay the subs, talent had little to do with it. Likewise, Charlton itself run many of their own schools and academic courses. You see and hear kids strutting the streets saying :"I'm training/trialling with/for...." save they really aren't. They think they're on the path to glory and riches. 

Whilst I understand the reasons for so doing, I think academies have gone too far in removing the relevance of 'football' to the skills they teach. Lots of kids with tricks and skills, nice touch but crap footballers in a team sport. Many only realise what competitive football comprises at a very late age only to realise it isn't for them.

Here is where the forward thinking grassroots clubs come into it. One mate coaches at Cray Valley PM (late of recent cup glory) who a few years back heavily invested in developing their feeder teams and pitch (which is excellent.) They select and develop restricted numbers to fulfill the squads they run, but selection is based on talent (not subs) and a limited though vital element of competitive play is incorporated. They align with the local FA and League representative teams such better kids (the two Eisa brothers are a good example,) progress. An interesting impact is the more talented and ambitious youngsters understand they've a better route into football by going with the likes of Cray than they have of going through The Charlton or Millwall route. This window Cray lost another two players to the National League, but they do so with the club's blessing. It's about development and progression. Cray know their place within the community and kids with no allegiance know it also. The interesting feature is the majority of kids going through such clubs are Black. The reason for highlighting ethnicity is they tend not to have a familial disposition toward any local club, if anything it's only a most tentative allegiance to one of the big 6 whom they've only seen on TV.

I truly believe kids with the ability to make it thrive better if they've played regular, competitive football (that doesn't have to be matches a week,) than those for who life comprises training session after coaching session.

City produce tons of kids with 'touch' who are crap footballers. They sign supposed top talent from star academies (Mark Flatts springs to mind,) genius in the warm up, thinking of a career in McDonald's when subject to the first crunching tackle they've ever encountered. 

My mates who live local to Bristol and who watch both our U23s and local football inform that, in their esteemed opinion, our players would better thrive were they regularly turning out for the likes of The Mangos than the contrived nonsense of our U23s, where it is said it's more about keeping them fit and uninjured than developing any competitive, winning edge. That's why we have the likes of Semenyo and Bakinson, players who appear to be pleased with their contributions at a personal level when they've delivered the square root of zip from a team perspective. That their coaches think likewise IS the problem.

 

Thanks for the replies. I'll reply later when there's time to read and digest - currently at work!

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12 hours ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

As I say, a lovely idea. Would be great to see. But for starters, for a club the size of Bilbao staying in La Liga is a damn sight easier than City staying in the Championship.

History tells us that - at any given time - our city and its environs produce few top class footballers.

Of the very best ones, most of them either never play for City or Rovers - Eddie Hapgood, captain of Arsenal and England but not so much as one appearance for either club - or don't stay long enough to make a difference, i.e. they're too good and so attract attention from the bigger clubs almost straight away - Roy Bentley played at a World Cup for England and captained Chelsea to their first League championship but was sold by City for a pittance after little more than a few war time games. Cliff Britton played for Everton and in midfield for England with Joe Mercer and Stan Cullis. Everton's record goalscorer Dixie Dean said he was so good, Britton could cross the ball and make sure, when Dean went to head it, the laces on the ball were facing away from him. Britton played for Rovers for about 5 minutes. Gary Mabbutt scarpered for the bright lights at the first available chance, and who can blame him.

I could go on, our city just haven't produced enough top class players, at any given time you care to mention, to sustain success the Bilbao way. A shame but there we are. 

How do we change that historical trend? I suppose if we could stop the really good ones being tempted away in the first place, either when they're young and coming through the Academy (Herbie Kane, Jacob Maddox, doubtless a few other more recent ones I can't remember) or when they've made a name for themselves in our first team (Bobby Reid, Joe Bryan) we might give ourselves half a chance of bucking that trend. In my opinion, the only way to do that is to become a Premier League team ourselves. Just one of several reasons why promotion is the next logical, possibly essential, step for City to take.  

In the meantime, the rugby club will show us how it's done - for all the headline grabbing signings, they have half a dozen genuine first teamers who are born and bred Bristolians - one from Ashton, for heaven's sake! You'll find a Bristolian or two in plenty of the other top flight teams too - get those players home and Bristol would have an almighty team. Whatsmore, the city of Bristol has always produced world class, not top class, world class, rugby players. I'm not sure we'll ever say the same about the football club. Here's hoping!

 

By mirroring the models that create success elsewhere. Bristol City's scouting and coaching network outside of Bristol is miniscule.

Within Bristol what are Bristol City doing? They have scouts in clubs, around leagues and coaches within a handful of clubs. Where is the strategy? Nick the best (often the big fast early developers) and hope one or two might be alright but what about the other 99.99% and the kids outside of Bristol? 

Its flawed as a development model. 

Edited by Cowshed
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As always money rules 

My prediction for the very near future is that the European Super League will happen, stealing the Premier League’s crown, meaning that the lucrative TV money the PL currently relies on will be drastically reduced.

This will have a knock on effect for the Championship and lower leagues, both in terms of cash grants and transfer fees.

The so called big clubs will become richer and increasingly “ global brands” , the rest may become more locally centric, with budgets to match.

Not all clubs will survive this change, at least as fully professional, and league sizes will probably reduce.

In my opinion, this is not what I want, but is inevitable and although City will never be one of the elite, it is not all bad.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Because I lazily left a few words off, because the sentiments are the same....we’ve offered him a big contract. Guesswork in the £25k pw range....as he allegedly wants £30k pw.

Typo, re-contracting.

My autocorrect, not yours. Sorry.
 

 - question still stands. What do you mean ‘in contrast to everything ma has said about recontracting ooc players? ‘

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56 minutes ago, The Bard said:

You make some good points but it falls to pieces at the end. Bakinson and Semenyo  have graduated to the first team having spent some time playing in the EFL.   The point of the loans was to give them the competitive edge that the under 23s lacks. 

 

It's arguable that Bakinson has been held back by our collection of overrated 'pros' . He only came into the side out of necessity.

Where in the EFL they did very little.

My point being had they not gone through our academy I'm sure they may have been better players than they now are (the appear to have some innate talent.) Had they played competitive football from an early age who knows Semenyo might have an end product and Bakinson know how to tackle. We can but dream.

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6 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Where in the EFL they did very little.

My point being had they not gone through our academy I'm sure they may have been better players than they now are (the appear to have some innate talent.) Had they played competitive football from an early age who knows Semenyo might have an end product and Bakinson know how to tackle. We can but dream.

Are all Academy's basically the same in the way they bring up (coach) young players? Not too competitive, tackling discouraged etc?

Surely tackling is a natural competitive instinct so hard to discourage in those for whom it's in their blood.

Compare City with Everton - we've got good knowledge of their graduates.

Walsh likes a tackle, Williams very much likes a tackle, and clearly a natural part of their games which Everton must have endorsed.

I can't think of a Gow-like (extreme example perhaps) really competitive City graduate.

Perhaps Scousers are naturally more aggressive than Bristolians - we don't get young Scots any more - or perhaps City rule out the more aggressive local youngsters at an early age or somehow coach that competitive spirit out of them?

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Are all Academy's basically the same in the way they bring up (coach) young players? Not too competitive, tackling discouraged etc?

Surely tackling is a natural competitive instinct so hard to discourage in those for whom it's in their blood.

Compare City with Everton - we've got good knowledge of their graduates.

Walsh likes a tackle, Williams very much likes a tackle, and clearly a natural part of their games which Everton must have endorsed.

I can't think of a Gow-like (extreme example perhaps) really competitive City graduate.

Perhaps Scousers are naturally more aggressive than Bristolians - we don't get young Scots any more - or perhaps City rule out the more aggressive local youngsters at an early age or somehow coach that competitive spirit out of them?

 

 

Where have you got academies discourage tackling? Academies reflect the values the club want x standard coaching methodology (Coaching badges are universal). 

Edited by Cowshed
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2 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Where have you got academies discourage tackling? Academies reflect the values the club want x standard coaching methodology (Coaches badge are universal). 

I'm not.

I'm saying Everton (as an example) produce aggressive tacklers, on top of their other skills, who really compete, and City don't seem to.

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12 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Where have you got academies discourage tackling? Academies reflect the values the club want x standard coaching methodology (Coaching badges are universal). 

Tackling isn't discouraged though coaching from an early age is more individual/ball focussed. From risk assessments of size/age , though to adults keeping their distance (all for sensible if unworldly reason,) it creates an unnatural environment which kids, when turning 16, suddenly find themselves in a whole new ballgame, literally. Commercial academies may actively limit contact, including games, so as to restrict liability should somebody get injured under their charge.

Well run grassroots clubs tend to be able to adopt a more competitive approach because for their development squads they've already pre-selected players of a certain standard and they need to be played. They're more accepting of risk than professional clubs.

I think that's why the young kids coming through these days often appear 'fragile' as they've rarely played against bigger, stronger adults at any time during their development. FA prescribes 2 - 3 year bands and then at 16 most bets are off. We have U23 squads where only one or so may be above that age, yet a 16 year old could appear in the first team against 11 late twenty year olds. 

No surprise the hardmen in modern football appear to come from abroad.

 

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10 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I'm not.

I'm saying Everton (as an example) produce aggressive tacklers, on top of their other skills, who really compete, and City don't seem to.

Everton may prioritize elements of play over others.  Academies do have differing values. They do recruit differently and this again can refiect values. Some value the physical more v the technical. Academies can use differing measurements TAP (technical athletic personality), TIP (technical intelligence physical) to recruit. 

Bristol City's academy do not discourage tackling - Bobby Reid did compete.  

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4 hours ago, The Bard said:

You make some good points but it falls to pieces at the end. Bakinson and Semenyo  have graduated to the first team having spent some time playing in the EFL.   The point of the loans was to give them the competitive edge that the under 23s lacks. 

 

It's arguable that Bakinson has been held back by our collection of overrated 'pros' . He only came into the side out of necessity.

Don't forget that Bakinson is actually a product of Luton Town's academy.

He cost us over a rumoured 500k, when we bought him and Hinds together.

I don't think we could claim to have nutured him through our academies.

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9 hours ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

Maybe, but I’d rather that than going bust trying to stay in the Championship 

As long as SL remains in charge, I have few worries on that score.

People might criticise a perceived lack of ambition, the quality of decision making vs the cash spent, his overall motives.

This is all a matter of opinion but as long as he remains in charge I think he'll:

a) Cover losses up to a point b) Run us correctly so that we don't hit the rocks- the external creditors vs debtors looked reasonable in the 2019/20 accounts. 

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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16 minutes ago, ncnsbcfc said:

Don't forget that Bakinson is actually a product of Luton Town's academy.

He cost us over a rumoured 500k, when we bought him and Hinds together.

I don't think we could claim to have nutured him through our academies.

Whatever happened to him, agree on your point BTW, but Hinds I seem to recall he scored at Watford in the Cup in the early part of that great Cup run- possibly scored v Plymouth too but he never seemed to develop sufficiently anyway.

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3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Whatever happened to him, agree on your point BTW, but Hinds I seem to recall he scored at Watford in the Cup in the early part of that great Cup run- possibly scored v Plymouth too but he never seemed to develop sufficiently anyway.

Something not quite right with Hinds. Saw him score in the game you mention; plus I think in another game in the cup; and thought he looked Interesting.

He's gone out on a number of loans, and seems to have fallen out with the managers in a very short space of time.

If it was just one manager, then perhaps it's down to personalities; but:-

Cheltenham

Wrexham

Colchester

He's turned up at all of them, and not played.

City have now resorted to sending him out to Conference South Bath. Even there, he has been in and out of the team; and coming back a few times into the fold. He doesn't play with the Under 23s, unlike Pearson, Brittain & Conway when they were on loan at Bath. All very strange.

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Great OP and some fans have discussed this throughout the pandemic when there was no income other than from the TV.

Anyone not feeling these Championship players are earning far too much is not living in a financially real, Covid world. When Furlough runs out we will see the consequences for fans. EPL players may be exempt as their clubs get massive TV fees to pay their wages so no one can blame Reid, Bryan, Webster, Kelly for moving to clubs with Prem budgets. 

I would guess SL may ask MA /DH to choose between bigger squads and higher average earnings as BTRFTG says, the total wages have to dramatically fall. No bad thing in my assessment, for football clubs who wish to claim they are community to slash their budgets even if it means worse results within the same league. EPL clubs are largely not part of a community, they are the front end of a huge marketing organisation which involves money moguls, betting agencies and other global interests

 

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5 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

That's a well argued and thought provoking post but here's an alternate take. I think one of the major issues in development of talent ARE the academies themselves. I'll explain.

Where I live the major academies were requisitioned for the Olympics and were forever lost to football/sport (yeah **** you Lord Coe and your supposed sporting legacy.) Kids like my own son went in droves, were proud to be associated with an 'academy' (in this case Charlton were badged,) but the reality was the fundamental requirement to thrive there was the ability of parents to pay the subs, talent had little to do with it. Likewise, Charlton itself run many of their own schools and academic courses. You see and hear kids strutting the streets saying :"I'm training/trialling with/for...." save they really aren't. They think they're on the path to glory and riches. 

Whilst I understand the reasons for so doing, I think academies have gone too far in removing the relevance of 'football' to the skills they teach. Lots of kids with tricks and skills, nice touch but crap footballers in a team sport. Many only realise what competitive football comprises at a very late age only to realise it isn't for them.

Here is where the forward thinking grassroots clubs come into it. One mate coaches at Cray Valley PM (late of recent cup glory) who a few years back heavily invested in developing their feeder teams and pitch (which is excellent.) They select and develop restricted numbers to fulfill the squads they run, but selection is based on talent (not subs) and a limited though vital element of competitive play is incorporated. They align with the local FA and League representative teams such better kids (the two Eisa brothers are a good example,) progress. An interesting impact is the more talented and ambitious youngsters understand they've a better route into football by going with the likes of Cray than they have of going through The Charlton or Millwall route. This window Cray lost another two players to the National League, but they do so with the club's blessing. It's about development and progression. Cray know their place within the community and kids with no allegiance know it also. The interesting feature is the majority of kids going through such clubs are Black. The reason for highlighting ethnicity is they tend not to have a familial disposition toward any local club, if anything it's only a most tentative allegiance to one of the big 6 whom they've only seen on TV.

I truly believe kids with the ability to make it thrive better if they've played regular, competitive football (that doesn't have to be matches a week,) than those for who life comprises training session after coaching session.

City produce tons of kids with 'touch' who are crap footballers. They sign supposed top talent from star academies (Mark Flatts springs to mind,) genius in the warm up, thinking of a career in McDonald's when subject to the first crunching tackle they've ever encountered. 

My mates who live local to Bristol and who watch both our U23s and local football inform that, in their esteemed opinion, our players would better thrive were they regularly turning out for the likes of The Mangos than the contrived nonsense of our U23s, where it is said it's more about keeping them fit and uninjured than developing any competitive, winning edge. That's why we have the likes of Semenyo and Bakinson, players who appear to be pleased with their contributions at a personal level when they've delivered the square root of zip from a team perspective. That their coaches think likewise IS the problem.

 

I lived in Luton for a number of years. Their academy is highly regarded, with a large number of young players being poached for London clubs (JD's trio as a case in point).

My eldest was "selected" to go into their academy at under 10s. There was over 120 of the boys at 3 sites over luton, training 3 times per week. This cost me £45 per month. The next year, the number went down to about 100 boys; and the cost went up to £50.

He would play away games at places all over the East of England. I was expected to drive him there, and back as there was no coaches from the club to take them. The games lasted approx. 25 mins each way (9 a side); and they would rotate the players through. Sometimes 20 players would be picked for the game.

On average, he would get maybe 15-20 mins of game time. The drive to some of these games would sometimes be a round trip of 3-4 hours. You can imagine how bored he got of the travelling; and not being able to play with his friends. So I pulled him out of the Academy for his own happiness.

Most of these clubs, just run the academies as money making opportunities. Yes, there are some good young players, but not 120 per age group. That is just taking the £500 per year money off eager parents willing to say their" Jimmy" was in an academy. The under 10s by my reckoning raked in £60k alone.

When the boys get to a certain age (normally 11 a side at under 13s) the majority get jettisoned; as the club then has to sign schoolboy forms etc. Many of the kids; and their parents are distraught; and never really get back into football again at a local level.

As you've said with Cray, it should be quality over quantity. But clubs just often see the £££s at youth level

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3 minutes ago, ncnsbcfc said:

I lived in Luton for a number of years. Their academy is highly regarded, with a large number of young players being poached for London clubs (JD's trio as a case in point).

My eldest was "selected" to go into their academy at under 10s. There was over 120 of the boys at 3 sites over luton, training 3 times per week. This cost me £45 per month. The next year, the number went down to about 100 boys; and the cost went up to £50.

He would play away games at places all over the East of England. I was expected to drive him there, and back as there was no coaches from the club to take them. The games lasted approx. 25 mins each way (9 a side); and they would rotate the players through. Sometimes 20 players would be picked for the game.

On average, he would get maybe 15-20 mins of game time. The drive to some of these games would sometimes be a round trip of 3-4 hours. You can imagine how bored he got of the travelling; and not being able to play with his friends. So I pulled him out of the Academy for his own happiness.

Most of these clubs, just run the academies as money making opportunities. Yes, there are some good young players, but not 120 per age group. That is just taking the £500 per year money off eager parents willing to say their" Jimmy" was in an academy. The under 10s by my reckoning raked in £60k alone.

When the boys get to a certain age (normally 11 a side at under 13s) the majority get jettisoned; as the club then has to sign schoolboy forms etc. Many of the kids; and their parents are distraught; and never really get back into football again at a local level.

As you've said with Cray, it should be quality over quantity. But clubs just often see the £££s at youth level

That's a really interesting take and echos much of what I've heard. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

That's a well argued and thought provoking post but here's an alternate take. I think one of the major issues in development of talent ARE the academies themselves. I'll explain.

Where I live the major academies were requisitioned for the Olympics and were forever lost to football/sport (yeah **** you Lord Coe and your supposed sporting legacy.) Kids like my own son went in droves, were proud to be associated with an 'academy' (in this case Charlton were badged,) but the reality was the fundamental requirement to thrive there was the ability of parents to pay the subs, talent had little to do with it. Likewise, Charlton itself run many of their own schools and academic courses. You see and hear kids strutting the streets saying :"I'm training/trialling with/for...." save they really aren't. They think they're on the path to glory and riches. 

Whilst I understand the reasons for so doing, I think academies have gone too far in removing the relevance of 'football' to the skills they teach. Lots of kids with tricks and skills, nice touch but crap footballers in a team sport. Many only realise what competitive football comprises at a very late age only to realise it isn't for them.

Here is where the forward thinking grassroots clubs come into it. One mate coaches at Cray Valley PM (late of recent cup glory) who a few years back heavily invested in developing their feeder teams and pitch (which is excellent.) They select and develop restricted numbers to fulfill the squads they run, but selection is based on talent (not subs) and a limited though vital element of competitive play is incorporated. They align with the local FA and League representative teams such better kids (the two Eisa brothers are a good example,) progress. An interesting impact is the more talented and ambitious youngsters understand they've a better route into football by going with the likes of Cray than they have of going through The Charlton or Millwall route. This window Cray lost another two players to the National League, but they do so with the club's blessing. It's about development and progression. Cray know their place within the community and kids with no allegiance know it also. The interesting feature is the majority of kids going through such clubs are Black. The reason for highlighting ethnicity is they tend not to have a familial disposition toward any local club, if anything it's only a most tentative allegiance to one of the big 6 whom they've only seen on TV.

I truly believe kids with the ability to make it thrive better if they've played regular, competitive football (that doesn't have to be matches a week,) than those for who life comprises training session after coaching session.

City produce tons of kids with 'touch' who are crap footballers. They sign supposed top talent from star academies (Mark Flatts springs to mind,) genius in the warm up, thinking of a career in McDonald's when subject to the first crunching tackle they've ever encountered. 

My mates who live local to Bristol and who watch both our U23s and local football inform that, in their esteemed opinion, our players would better thrive were they regularly turning out for the likes of The Mangos than the contrived nonsense of our U23s, where it is said it's more about keeping them fit and uninjured than developing any competitive, winning edge. That's why we have the likes of Semenyo and Bakinson, players who appear to be pleased with their contributions at a personal level when they've delivered the square root of zip from a team perspective. That their coaches think likewise IS the problem.

 

Semenyo has delivered the square root of zip? Are you sure about that?

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