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Holden - sack or keep?


Major Isewater

Holden - sack or keep?   

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I’ve voted sack, although I have sympathy with the ‘stick with him until end of the season’ view.

Obviously covid and injuries have been significant, but despite that I just don’t think he’s of a good enough standard.

Football is terrible, no cohesion on the pitch and stats back this up.

There are a few good quality managers available now (Cook, Howe, Tisdale ?) but I imagine in the summer when the covid situation could be different there will be more competition. If it were up to me, I’d sack him now.

Shame because he’s obviously a great guy and tried his best in difficult circumstances. Just not what we need.

 

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Just now, The Bard said:

Understatement of the year there. The point about removing him would be to restructure having an actual chief scout, a manager and a director of football.  At the moment we have that smarmy *** in charge of 'all football matters'.

And we don't have to have a CEO in place before a manager. We have the very competent Chairman; I realise that may not be a popular view. ?

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The performances are just too awful to ignore. I'm fully in DH out camp and it took some doing after being so eager for a change in performances after LJ.

It really wouldn't surprise me if after the Reading game we're closer to 22nd than 6th. If this season was LJ's last season, I wonder if he would've been sacked already? 

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As said by another poster , we must act now and get rid . No delay . He was only ever a stop gap and won’t be manager next season so with all the out of contract players we have , a total squad overhaul is likely . Can’t trust Holden with this and the new man will need time in the job to influence that overhaul . Ashton simply HAS to step back or **** off though because a business exec is incapable of conducting such an overhaul ! 

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Just now, Sturny said:

The performances are just too awful to ignore. I'm fully in DH out camp and it took some doing after being so eager for a change in performances after LJ.

It really wouldn't surprise me if after the Reading game we're closer to 22nd than 6th. If this season was LJ's season, I wonder if he would've been sacked already? 

I reckon more resources would’ve been given to LJ to strengthen in January. I doubt we’d have ended January without a specialist LB if Johnson was here.

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Think he’s had a poisoned chalice, inherited a large, but unbalanced squad with a porous midfield, and limited resources to correct the imbalance. He’s done his bit in bringing Academy players through, and we had a very good start. The slump is more due to injuries, particularly to key players, leaving us with the bare bones of a squad, playing two games a week. 
As far as I can see, biggest problem is that supporters minds were closed at the outset, and whatever he does, they’ll still want this magical “experienced manager”.

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1 minute ago, The Bard said:

Understatement of the year there. The point about removing him would be to restructure having an actual chief scout, a manager and a director of football.  At the moment we have that smarmy *** in charge of 'all football matters'.

Give it time its only early February!

Personally I can't see a complete restructure happening at all let alone in mid-season but ultimately its Lansdowns decision.

 

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Sacking Holden does not mean the only way we can get a decent manager is to also sack MA, which I think is much less likely to happen.

The backing of the club and facilities make it an attractive job and I am sure there are plenty of quality managers that will work within the structure.

But if the club now recognise that the DH experiment has failed and they want to get in an experienced coach like rugby have and the preferred new coach will not work within the current regime, then it only takes a bit or restructuring of responsibilities for the new head coach to have the control they want. It may be that MA finds that untenable and decides to leave, but that's different.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Our form, league position and performances are the same if not worse than when Johnson was sacked. If he wasnt good enough, then same rules apply to DH. 

If we were sat in 10th place but playing attractive football I don't think there would be the current level of outcry but sadly we are going backwards and fast in both league position and performance level. Holden's issue is that he doesn't have the same credit in the bank as LJ did, he hasn't kept us up when we look doomed to relegation, he hasn't taken us on a Semi-FInal cup run, he hasn't produced the fantastic football we saw in 2017 that LJ did, nor does his family have the same relationship with the Lansdowns as the Johnsons do so it will be far easier for the hierachy to be ruthless on this one.

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Just now, Alex_BCFC said:

Pointless sacking now and expecting a decent manager to come in during this season. We would just be getting another short-term appointment.

Next season there should be clarity over finances for the future and then they can make a sensible decision over a manager who can take us forward.

Honest question, but why not? Cardiff did just that, are we that different? 

 

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2 minutes ago, tin said:

Sack. I genuinely believe if we stick with him, there's a very real chance we'll go down next year. The thought of him "having the final say" on recruiting up to a dozen new players in the summer fills me with dread, especially when you consider four of the last six permanent signings were 30+. 

That I think is in the back of a lot of people's minds. Have older more experienced players by all means, but it seems that he (or this setup) have moved towards "experience".

The last time we had plenty of "experience" we ended up in League 1. Mind you we also ended up with a mixture of crap as well as "experience".

For a club in our position - one that wants to "stand on it's own two feet" you need younger players with a resale value. You can't bring in youth to then sell on at a profit, if you have 3 or 4 "experienced" players keeping them out of the team.

Of course the other way of looking at it, is that he wanted to bring in a few more experience heads as the squad was too young and naive. That does kind of make sense, but one has already left after mutually cancelling his contract due to injury, Martin has been flogged half to death and is injured, Mariappa has been played out of position (was he even on the bench last night?), and Lansbury has come in, played a game and dropped out of the squad completely. 

Current recruitment is worrying. Yes - covid - but it's not the only thing. Coaching, lack of purpose, players not looking interested.

We have Lee Johnson mk2 in place. Lee Johnson Mk1 was not good enough, so why give it to his apprentice?

Nice bloke by all means, but that's part of the problem. This club is too nice - it needs someone to come in grab them by the neck and shake things up - and by that I mean players and the board.....

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I've got the same view I had when we discussed sacking LJ, although in hindsight now keeping LJ was probably better than employing DH in our current situation.

If we can replace him with someone experienced and "proven" then I'd go for it

If we sack him with no one lined up and go through another 5/6 weeks without caretakers and end up appointing someone uninspiring then no, I'd at least keep him until the end of the season and see who becomes available

Of who is available, and that I've seen enough of, highlights for me are probably:

Lampard - done reasonably well at this level with Derby, think Chelsea job was too early, has great contacts
Howe - obviously a good coach/manager at Bournemouth. Did spend a bit though
Di Matteo - took West Brom up, so he's "done it" at this level
Pearson / Wagner / Cook - best of the rest really

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Before we decide on DH please can we have a Sack or Not poll for Teflon Ashton as in my opinion whilst hes in situ no half decent manager will touch us with a barge poll???  Ashton will only ever employ managers who will say "yes Mark, No Mark, I love you mark" and any half decent managers at this level will want to have their destiny in their own hands, not in the hands of a Dominic Cummings clone.

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I wasn’t a fan during his 8 or so games that I saw at the end of last season, although some posters on here whose opinion I respect, did see good things ( football hey!) & for me that has continued into this season to the point that I feel we are rudderless & now drifting. I’ve never been one for sacking managers, of recent times, I can only really think of Mcinnes as a manager I definitely wanted rid of, totally out of his depth & made bizarre unwarranted decisions. I could see the reasoning behind the sacking of LJ, although wasn’t what I would of done at that point ( tin hat on ). So on that basis, this football is worse & with a stronger more experienced squad, I would certainly be looking at what other options there are & sounding out who might be interested. COYR 

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10 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

highlights for me are probably:

Lampard - done reasonably well at this level with Derby, think Chelsea job was too early, has great contacts
Howe - obviously a good coach/manager at Bournemouth. Did spend a bit though
Di Matteo - took West Brom up, so he's "done it" at this level
Pearson / Wagner / Cook - best of the rest really

None of whom will come with Ashton in charge.. Howe already said no. Cook possibly did as well. It's common sense that you sound out the best available but when they read the prospectus, no doubt 20 pages or more long from Ashton, it curbs their enthusiasm no end. 

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15 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

I've got the same view I had when we discussed sacking LJ, although in hindsight now keeping LJ was probably better than employing DH in our current situation.

If we can replace him with someone experienced and "proven" then I'd go for it

If we sack him with no one lined up and go through another 5/6 weeks without caretakers and end up appointing someone uninspiring then no, I'd at least keep him until the end of the season and see who becomes available

Of who is available, and that I've seen enough of, highlights for me are probably:

Lampard - done reasonably well at this level with Derby, think Chelsea job was too early, has great contacts
Howe - obviously a good coach/manager at Bournemouth. Did spend a bit though
Di Matteo - took West Brom up, so he's "done it" at this level
Pearson / Wagner / Cook - best of the rest really

As others have said, difficult to know whether they’d work under Ashton. However there is a decent range of out of work managers of which many - on paper anyway - seem attainable. 

I imagine lots of clubs are holding fire until the summer. Why not take action now?

I find it impossible to believe someone like Paul Cook or Pearson (whether they’re the type this board would want not factored in) wouldn’t be able to do better with this squad. 

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Should never have been given the job in the first place - We are rotten from the top to the bottom so completely pointless if Ashton is still retained - he should fall on his sword at the end of the season but won't - will prob just appoint another of his mates - My money is on Appleton....  

What a waste of a season, where we could have easily slipped into 5th or 6th spot with the squad we have ... J

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12 minutes ago, Simon Wheeler said:

Before we decide on DH please can we have a Sack or Not poll for Teflon Ashton as in my opinion whilst hes in situ no half decent manager will touch us with a barge poll???  Ashton will only ever employ managers who will say "yes Mark, No Mark, I love you mark" and any half decent managers at this level will want to have their destiny in their own hands, not in the hands of a Dominic Cummings clone.

Steve Lansdown's opinion of the job that Ashton is doing will be the key factor in where the club heads over the next few years. If Teflon is left in-situ and lets face it, it's down to Steve as it's his club after all, then more of the same is all we can expect. People mention Eddie Howe and Frank Lampard as if Mark Ashton would phone them up and they would be so impressed by what he had to say that they would pick up 9 points before they've even managed a game....................for speeding offences in their haste to get down here for interview. Exactly as others have intimated if we change the Manager expect Michael Appleton or very similar to be next to come through Teflon's revolving door.

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30 minutes ago, Sturny said:

Honest question, but why not? Cardiff did just that, are we that different? 

 

I suspect that SL is waiting for clarity over next season having fans back etc and will want to be able to promise an experienced decent manager funds based on that. I could be wrong but just my take on it. Can't really comment on Cardiff as don't know enough about their situation but Mick is used to working with no money (Ipswich) so expect he was happy to come in without funds available. Not that I would moan if he came here as I like him.

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11 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

As others have said, difficult to know whether they’d work under Ashton. However there is a decent range of out of work managers of which many - on paper anyway - seem attainable. 

I imagine lots of clubs are holding fire until the summer. Why not take action now?

I find it impossible to believe someone like Paul Cook or Pearson (whether they’re the type this board would want not factored in) wouldn’t be able to do better with this squad. 

It seems clear to probably all of us that this board will not allow a manager final say; at least this is what we are led to believe and also appears to be the case. Why else would they appoint such managers down the years.

Pearson would have this team ruthlessly organised and promoted within a year. But he would never be given the job at City; I call their bluff in the vain hope!

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2 minutes ago, havanatopia said:

It seems clear to probably all of us that this board will not allow a manager final say; at least this is what we are led to believe and also appears to be the case. Why else would they appoint such managers down the years.

Pearson would have this team ruthlessly organised and promoted within a year. But he would never be given the job at City; I call their bluff in the vain hope!

Pearson seems to be a very good football manager BUT a complex character to go with it. So that's the end of that then!! 

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13 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Steve Lansdown's opinion of the job that Ashton is doing will be the key factor in where the club heads over the next few years. If Teflon is left in-situ and lets face it, it's down to Steve as it's his club after all, then more of the same is all we can expect. People mention Eddie Howe and Frank Lampard as if Mark Ashton would phone them up and they would be so impressed by what he had to say that they would pick up 9 points before they've even managed a game....................for speeding offences in their haste to get down here for interview. Exactly as others have intimated if we change the Manager expect Michael Appleton or very similar to be next to come through Teflon's revolving door.

That's the reality of the situation, sadly. I do think the likes of Cook or Howe would be interested if Ashton wasn't in place. Ashton has previous for employing his mates (Rolls, Proctor etc) or family (Werhun), so somebody like Appleton (who worked under Ashton at Oxford) is a very realistic, depressing candidate should Holden go. Oxford were in League Two when those two worked together in 2014/15, and that's their level. 

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