Jump to content

Welcome to One Team in Bristol - Bristol City Forums

Welcome to One Team in Bristol - Bristol City Forums, like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community, but don't worry this is a simple free process that requires minimal information for you to signup. Be a part of One Team in Bristol - Bristol City Forums by signing in or creating an account.

  • Start new topics and reply to others
  • Full access to all forums (not all viewable as guest)
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get email updates
  • Get your own profile page and make new friends
  • Send personal messages to other members.
  • Support OTIB with a premium membership

IGNORED

Controversial


Recommended Posts

I don't post very often but i thought i'd get your opinions on our youngsters.  I appreciate that we're in an awful state but i just don't think our kids are that good.

Moore, Vyner, Bakinson, Massengo and Semenyo have had enough games in The Champ now to prove they are up to the level but i just don't see any great improvement.

In an ideal world we wouldn't be playing all of them at the same time but they strike me as more on the Wes Burns pathway than Josh Brownhill? I hope i'm wrong but i wondered what everyones thoughts were?

 

  • Like 8
Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Edgy Red said:

I don't post very often but i thought i'd get your opinions on our youngsters.  I appreciate that we're in an awful state but i just don't think our kids are that good.

Moore, Vyner, Bakinson, Massengo and Semenyo have had enough games in The Champ now to prove they are up to the level but i just don't see any great improvement.

In an ideal world we wouldn't be playing all of them at the same time but they strike me as more on the Wes Burns pathway than Josh Brownhill? I hope i'm wrong but i wondered what everyones thoughts were?

 

Do you know, the same thing has crossed my mind. 

I think they’ve all shown in fits and starts that they’re good enough, but consistency is key and they’re not showing it. Perhaps that comes with age... hopefully. 

Bakinson can be excellent and horrible in equal measure. Vyner (probably not young any longer!) has by and large been dependable. Semenyo looks exciting on occasions but awful on others (but had a late start to the game) and I’m sorry :laugh: to say there’s not much hope for Moore. Massengo can be good, but lightweight in equal measure. 

Consistency in youngsters is often a weakness, and I suppose the key is to expose them a little at a time. But our injury issues have meant that they’ve had a lot of minutes. And when you’re playing three or four of them at the same time, especially alongside players like Pato and KP, who are incredibly far from consistent, suddenly it’s plausible that you’ve got half a team who don’t turn up. I wonder if that’s our problem.

The youngsters need to find themselves amongst the more consistent players; Kalas, Nagy, Hunt(?). But when you play several players in the same side who wouldn’t look out of place in league one, you start to get what might look like a league one team. 

It’s all very well saying “isn’t it great we’ve blooded the youngsters?” But if you’re slip sliding towards league one, suddenly it’s not so great. 

There was a big tell in Holden’s thinking. When you look at the last team he put out when he desperately needed the result, he put out all the experience. 

In short, it’s great playing the academy products, but they’re not yet consistent enough to be regulars IMO. 

  • Like 10
Link to post
Share on other sites

Harsh to call out the youngsters as looking suspect in this team. You could drop in Messi and Ronaldo right now and they would be looking bang average within 90 minutes, assuming the medical team didn't crock them first.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Since when did all our team become bad players? To me it's one of 2 things or both. They are either not interested, or being badly coached, and possibly the coaching is the major flaw. The kids have to play due to injuries but this will give them a great experience. Things will improve and the kids will improve with it. We just need a top coach to turn things round , and I mean a top coach, not some up and coming trainee!

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

Do you know, the same thing has crossed my mind. 

I think they’ve all shown in fits and starts that they’re good enough, but consistency is key and they’re not showing it. Perhaps that comes with age... hopefully. 

Bakinson can be excellent and horrible in equal measure. Vyner (probably not young any longer!) has by and large been dependable. Semenyo looks exciting on occasions but awful on others (but had a late start to the game) and I’m sorry :laugh: to say there’s not much hope for Moore. Massengo can be good, but lightweight in equal measure. 

Consistency in youngsters is often a weakness, and I suppose the key is to expose them a little at a time. But our injury issues have meant that they’ve had a lot of minutes. And when you’re playing three or four of them at the same time, especially alongside players like Pato and KP, who are incredibly far from consistent, suddenly it’s plausible that you’ve got half a team who don’t turn up. I wonder if that’s our problem.

The youngsters need to find themselves amongst the more consistent players; Kalas, Nagy, Hunt(?). But when you play several players in the same side who wouldn’t look out of place in league one, you start to get what might look like a league one team. 

It’s all very well saying “isn’t it great we’ve blooded the youngsters?” But if you’re slip sliding towards league one, suddenly it’s not so great. 

There was a big tell in Holden’s thinking. When you look at the last team he put out when he desperately needed the result, he put out all the experience. 

In short, it’s great playing the academy products, but they’re not yet consistent enough to be regulars IMO. 

And the experienced players that Holden turned to in his hour of need played awful. Lansbury and Paterson look barely fit enough for 20 minutes let alone a start. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, mozo said:

And the experienced players that Holden turned to in his hour of need played awful. Lansbury and Paterson look barely fit enough for 20 minutes let alone a start. 

Don’t say the L word. It brings about my rage. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe many of our kids are talented enough but we've been forced into playing some of them too much too soon. Unless the kid is one of those one in a decade players they will show sparks but not consistency. It is because of that lack of consistency that managers will always favour experience over youth in a tight spot. Our problem is that given our continuing injury list we may not have that luxury. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

As others have said, I think it normal for young players to lack consistency. What worries me is that young players pick up habits and ideas from the players around them and it feels like there are a lack of leaders in the team who can help our younger players understand what they need to do to fulfill their potential. 

Young players always develop but they only improve if they are learning and doing the right things. If the players the youngsters are learning from are coasters who lack the drive and know how to fulfil their own potential then that is what those youngsters are likely to become too.

We urgently need a manager who knows how to bring in high standards and a winning mentality.

Link to post
Share on other sites

For me Vyner has been very good, but shouldn’t be in midfield. I get why he was out there, he did well for about a game there, but he’s been pretty anonymous since and should be with Kalas at the back. Overall: Success.

Bakinson and Semenyo have had MOTM games and have had the odd stinker too. With the later I feel that’s more because the club needs to settle on his position. I don’t think he’s a striker in a two, he’s 4-3-3 type guy, or you bring him off the bench to attack tired back lines. Bakinson is still quite raw, but even when he makes mistakes you can see he’s trying to be positive on the game, that’ll come with more game time, perhaps he needs a champ loan next season (assuming we stay up) to have more game time and improve. Overall: Warrant being in the squad 

Moore and Massengo, perhaps I’m being a bit harsh on them here, especially HNM but they need to buck up a bit. Moore especially needs to find a way of dropping these errors out of his game. We can all agree he brings enthusiasm and is an all right nice guy but he gives me kittens when he plays because you’re just waiting for the clanger. HNM has been better recently having looked lost in our midfield whenever he was in it before. There’s clearly a player there, we see it in flashes but you wonder if we’re failing him by not figuring out his best position. He’s certainly looked better being more box to box than holding recently. Whoever the new manager is will need to make big decisions on these two over the summer. Overall: need more from them.

So in overall reply to the OP, it’s a mixed bag, out of the five theres three that certainly I’m happy to see in the squad at this level, given all the circumstances and injuries too I think there’s merit that these guys can perform. Also worth mentioning we’ve probably leaned hardest on our youth this year more than in a lot of other seasons. Let’s be honest here Towler, Bell, Pearson, love seeing these names on the bench but they need to be on loans and getting games, and then we can be talking about them in perhaps a season or two in the same light. 

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the problem is we have a set formation or two that our Head Coaches have wanted to play and are shoe-horning players into that.

Semenyo has been a left forward, a striker and an out and out winger so far. He's probably most suited to a wide forward, but we don't have anyone to play on the other side, meaning we play 2 up top.

Bakinson for me would be the player to sit in front of the centre backs and keep the ball moving and try forward passes to split the lines.

Vyner is the right side of a 3 centre backs, but we are now playing him central midfielder. If we play him there, we can't play 5 at the back.

Moore... last year I thought he was a very good young player. This year he has 0 confidence and every decision he seems to make seems to be wrong.

Massengo we just don't play.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we have too many inexperienced players thrown in at once The combination is horrific and it's actually been horrible for them. Their first experiences of sustained first team Championship football is defeats. demoralisation and constant backs-against-the-walls football.

The "experienced heads" we've tried to sprinkle through the squad to bolster these young players are either past it (Marriappa); hopelessly rusty (Lansbury) or both (Brunt).

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Edgy Red said:

I don't post very often but i thought i'd get your opinions on our youngsters.  I appreciate that we're in an awful state but i just don't think our kids are that good.

Moore, Vyner, Bakinson, Massengo and Semenyo have had enough games in The Champ now to prove they are up to the level but i just don't see any great improvement.

In an ideal world we wouldn't be playing all of them at the same time but they strike me as more on the Wes Burns pathway than Josh Brownhill? I hope i'm wrong but i wondered what everyones thoughts were?

 

I would disagree that Bakinson has had enough games, it took Brownhill, Eliasson and even O'Dowda a season at championship level before we really saw any consistency for being up to the standard regularly. Tyreeq has shown he can have good games at this level so its a promising sign. Massengo hasn't really had a chance for regular game time so its been hard for him to demonstrate it, he barely played a minute before mid december, Brownhill developed because he had regular game time. Moore we need to be seeing more from. Semenyo I'd say if you looked at him as more of a creator he's actually around 14th for assists when you look at all strikers and wingers in the league so that's not bad its just his lack of league goals that stands out. Get him wide and getting into areas wide in the penalty area for 1v1 and cut backs and I think he could contribute to a good amount of chances. After the first few games Vyner was solid enough at CB for the required standard of him. 

The main thing however I think is more the fact with Brownhill it was one or two players developing in a side of experienced players, our current crop of younger players are being relied on more with a few consistent experienced players and the rest not performing.

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said:

We urgently need a manager who knows how to bring in high standards and a winning mentality.

That's why I'd hold back on any judgement right now. With senior internationals such as TK clearly being adversely affected it must be a difficult environment for younger players, at crucial points in their careers.

Added to the numbers of other footballers that have arrived here in recent years and consistently under performed - I'm not convinced we've seen many players at near 100% for a while. 

If the club agree with LB we'll see with a lot more certainty either way.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The sad thing is it's our experienced players that are playing worse imo.

Hunt, Lansbury and Fam are particularly poor at the moment.

Wells has been a disaster too.

We've brought in more experience, but the wrong ones. Brunt obviously a complete failure of a signing.

Mawson so injury prone coming into a club that seems to be doing something that gets lots of players injured for months and months, so always likely he would get a bad injury. And then he surprisingly is back with us and Holden plays him in a cup game days after a league game! Oh what a surprise what happened there, and to Williams! 😩🤦

With the injuries we have had I would say Vyner has been one of our best performers. Semenyo been our best forward. He's only been poor recently. He was our main attacking threat for most of the season.

Bakinson was so good start of the season when winning and been good off the bench recently. I think him and Semenyo could go right to the top.

Moore I am starting to really worry about. But for some reason he has always looked better for us in a back 4. To be fair to him after I criticised him midway through the first half on here he then actually played well yesterday.

Massengo is only 19 and clearly has fantastic technique and work rate. He could become very special imo. Once he's older and stronger he should be able to use his body better at this level as he isn't exactly quick so needs that bit of strength to go with that technical ability.

For his age he is actually strong. 19 is so young. It's very unusual for players to be close to their prime at that age so it's hard to judge him as being poor, as for his age he looks top quality. At under 23 level he'd be the best player on the pitch in every game I expect.

So overall happy with them. More of a problem with others and I have a real problem with the injuries we keep suffering. We'd be a whole different side with many of those available. And that would get these younger players playing much better! A big thing is what they are playing with and how they are set up. So much easier in a good side to play well.

Edited by JonDolman
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mad Cyril said:

Harsh to call out the youngsters as looking suspect in this team. You could drop in Messi and Ronaldo right now and they would be looking bang average within 90 minutes, assuming the medical team didn't crock them first.

Dont be a silly cyril..... Medical team wouldnt have crocked em first..... Ashton would have said theyre both past it...... 

Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, RobArnold10 said:

For me Vyner has been very good, but shouldn’t be in midfield. I get why he was out there, he did well for about a game there, but he’s been pretty anonymous since and should be with Kalas at the back. Overall: Success.

Bakinson and Semenyo have had MOTM games and have had the odd stinker too. With the later I feel that’s more because the club needs to settle on his position. I don’t think he’s a striker in a two, he’s 4-3-3 type guy, or you bring him off the bench to attack tired back lines. Bakinson is still quite raw, but even when he makes mistakes you can see he’s trying to be positive on the game, that’ll come with more game time, perhaps he needs a champ loan next season (assuming we stay up) to have more game time and improve. Overall: Warrant being in the squad 

Moore and Massengo, perhaps I’m being a bit harsh on them here, especially HNM but they need to buck up a bit. Moore especially needs to find a way of dropping these errors out of his game. We can all agree he brings enthusiasm and is an all right nice guy but he gives me kittens when he plays because you’re just waiting for the clanger. HNM has been better recently having looked lost in our midfield whenever he was in it before. There’s clearly a player there, we see it in flashes but you wonder if we’re failing him by not figuring out his best position. He’s certainly looked better being more box to box than holding recently. Whoever the new manager is will need to make big decisions on these two over the summer. Overall: need more from them.

So in overall reply to the OP, it’s a mixed bag, out of the five theres three that certainly I’m happy to see in the squad at this level, given all the circumstances and injuries too I think there’s merit that these guys can perform. Also worth mentioning we’ve probably leaned hardest on our youth this year more than in a lot of other seasons. Let’s be honest here Towler, Bell, Pearson, love seeing these names on the bench but they need to be on loans and getting games, and then we can be talking about them in perhaps a season or two in the same light. 

I said at the time of the clamour for him to play in midfield that it’s a tough job trying to play 360 degrees.  Yesterday he looked lost.  But in fairness he’s had a couple of good games in there, but he’s also had some indifferent ones too.  We have enough proper midfielders to not have to play him there now.  Plus as an opposition manager, you’d see him in there, knowing he’s a CB/RB and expose him.  That’s what’s happened.  Credit to him for it not being a disastrous move though.  But let’s get him back alongside Kalas, or even RB in a back 4 to allow Sessegnon and Hunt to rotate.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

 

So overall happy with them. More of a problem with others and I have a real problem with the injuries we keep suffering. We'd be a whole different side with many of those available. And that would get these younger players playing much better! A big thing is what they are playing with and how they are set up. So much easier in a good side to play well.

This is the most frustrating aspect: being the most injured team of the Championship had/has multiple negative effects...and a relegation mainly caused by this huge problem would be cruel/hard to accept.   Yes, the club often didn't make the best decision (starting with the appointment of an inexperienced managerial trio), and the performances should be less poor despite injuries, but I'm sure that other clubs in our situation would struggle too.

Anyway, I agree about the youngsters-senior players comparison

Edited by Dan Robin
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone trying to make their way in the game with the incredible changes in formations and approaches over the last years will struggle. Often played out of position too. Add in a team low on confidence, then how is a young player going to understand patterns of play and to learn a way of playing. I would struggle to judge may of them, I can see potential, errors are evident, but the senior pros are hardly a beacon of light either. It is a general comment, not aimed at individuals, but it would quite harsh to judge our younger players within the framework we have been operating. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

It took Josh Brownhill at least 2 full seasons with us to become Josh Brownhill.

Semenyo and Bakinson are the two that really have something about them. Neither are consistent, but they're both teenagers (still, I think?). Semenyo reminds me of Raheem Sterling when he was younger in some respects; comes alive when he's on the ball but lacks composure in the final third, something he'll probably develop. Bakinson probably needs to be put in the right midfield (which may not be ours, at least not with the injuries we have).

Vyner is a solid championship squad player and may become more, but personally I see him as someone to have in the squadron cover multiple positions. Moore and Massengo are both massively talented (especially the latter) but I'm not sure either has the mentality to reach the top. HNM obviously has youth on his side in that respect.

They're young, relatively inexperienced players. Some will kick on, some will not. I enjoy watching them develop personally, even if this season has not been the best way to develop them

Link to post
Share on other sites

With 3 L2 goals in 71 league appearances I'd suggest Semenyo is consistency personified. Ditto Bakinson's inability to retain the ball or tackle. Ditto Taylor-Moore's inability to track a run or find a teammate when in free possession. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Edgy Red said:

I don't post very often but i thought i'd get your opinions on our youngsters.  I appreciate that we're in an awful state but i just don't think our kids are that good.

Moore, Vyner, Bakinson, Massengo and Semenyo have had enough games in The Champ now to prove they are up to the level but i just don't see any great improvement.

In an ideal world we wouldn't be playing all of them at the same time but they strike me as more on the Wes Burns pathway than Josh Brownhill? I hope i'm wrong but i wondered what everyones thoughts were?

 

Agreed. If I ask myself who will be sold for £5m+ in the future, possibly Massengo. Apart from that, not a chance! 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m not sure how HNM can get my stick, every time he’s played, often in a difficult covering midfield roll, he’s done between ok and our best player.

I swear a lot of fans have a think about how much he’s contributed the last couple games, decided it’s nothing and then state he’s not up to it or has to do more...........he hasn’t played, which is pretty much what’s happened the last 4 months.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

This is the elephant in the room when it comes to SL's academy and pathway plans.

It's great to blood the youngsters, but only if they're good enough. IMO - the players we've seen are no-where near consistent enough for the top of the championship yet. 

I'll also say what i've already said this season - I think it's a misnomer that Holden was giving youth players chances by choice.

Semenyo, Bakinson, HNM, Vyner, Moore etc  I feel only got quite so many of the minutes they did because of the players missing. Vyner/Moore = Baker/Mawson. Bakinson = Williams/Walsh/Brunt. Semenyo/Bell/Edwards = Walsh/Weimann/Pato/COD.

The fact is our average squad age has gone up and is one of the higher in the division now too. 

I'm confident that had we had a fit squad, we'd have seen so much less of them and we wouldn't have seen Towler, Bell and Edwards at all. For months U23's warmed the bench getting no minutes. 

That being said, Brownhill, Bryan, Kelly, all took a little time to develop. This isn't me writing anyone off though - but turning to these guys to get us out the mess is not a recipe for success. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Dan Robin said:

This is the most frustrating aspect: being the most injured team of the Championship had/has multiple negative effects...and a relegation mainly caused by this huge problem would be cruel/hard to accept.   Yes, the club often didn't make the best decision (starting with the appointment of an inexperienced managerial trio), and the performances should be less poor despite injuries, but I'm sure that other clubs in our situation would struggle too.

Anyway, I agree about the youngsters-senior players comparison

Yep. I actually think if we had more of a similar injury record to what the average championship side has suffered this season  then we'd be doing far better.

Holden had a system that suited those playing like Weimann and Paterson box to box and would have suited Dasilva and Williams once they were back. O'Dowda it suited too when he came in for injured Weimann in his role. 

Sessegnon competing with Hunt who really has needed that competition as well as the chance for rest or to be dropped if Sessegnon had proven himself to be a better option.

Losing Rowe and Martin too. And even the 2 left sided options recalled having impressed on loan in league one and two.

It has been ridiculous. It looked like Walsh would have been a regular but not played a single minute yet. Oh and nearly forgot about Baker! How we could do with him at the moment at the back. 

If the equivalent players in those positions at any other club were to get injured for the same time as those players then any team would be much lower down in the table.

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Bodiesaffer said:

I disagree with that, you can’t constantly defend for 90mins without mistakes. It’s not the defending that’s the problem.

....as Kalas said (paraphrased) - it’s like waiting for death.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...