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UEFA to scrap FFP


Gmac
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3 minutes ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

But will it again give more power to the clubs with big financial backers 

I think it would ultimately be good news for clubs like ours. We have the opportunity for decent backing, but FFP clips our wings and hands the advantage to parachute payment clubs or those that overspend. 

The risk though is it enables the giant clubs to leave others eating dust with no way to make up ground. I think FFP has helped clubs like Leicester for example.

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1 hour ago, Gmac said:

Reported that UEFA are to scrap FFP rules and replace with a system that will allow clubs more freedom over spending. Take it this won’t effect us in the championship? 
Thoughts? 

Obviously this will have nothing to do with Barcelona’s mountain of debt! :whistle:

If it did not already exist, this will only precipitate the gulf between the haves and the have nots. Odds on a European super league anyone?

Edited by downendcity
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1 hour ago, 2015 said:

This would be great news for Football

Well otoh, on a UEFA level ie their review of top division finances across Europe ie PL and 50 or so other European top flights, it went from an aggregate loss to an aggregate profit from memory, from 2008/09 to 2018/19.

I also suspect we have seen less club insolvency events in the FFP decade than before.

The stuff about overdue payables, taxation and so on- also good. Creditors often get stiffed when clubs go into admin...so can HMRC at times.

1 hour ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I think it would ultimately be good news for clubs like ours. We have the opportunity for decent backing, but FFP clips our wings and hands the advantage to parachute payment clubs or those that overspend. 

The risk though is it enables the giant clubs to leave others eating dust with no way to make up ground. I think FFP has helped clubs like Leicester for example.

Leicester a fine example. Would Sheffield United have gone up without? Tottenham have used the system well.

Overseas Atalanta an interesting example, Ajax periodically return to prpmince. Did it help Atletico, Borussia Dortmund and Leipzig grow? Arguably yes.

1 hour ago, Northern Red said:

The Man City case basically proved that their rules are unenforceable

Well a club the size of AC Milan got a year ban in 2018.

Lille and Wolves both got Settlement Agreements Summer 2020.

The Man City case. Think UEFA on one level tied their hands somewhat with 2014 Settlement Agreement not least as Man City complied with that in an exemplary manner.

Can you reopen an old case subject to a Settlement Agreement that was complied with? Yes it can be reopened but can it be made to stick? Certain charges were time barred.

On a side note, Asian owned clubs. Talking the whole continent from Azerbaijan to the Far East. These are often the big FFP culprits..

Dunno if cultural differences at play.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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https://www.football.london/premier-league/chelsea-arsenal-tottenham-uefa-ffp-20244291

Seems a good article on it. Changes feel unnecessary to me.

If they (UEFA) are worried about legal challenges at EU level, the European Parliament can maybe just grant the regs an exemption under Specificity of Sport?

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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1 hour ago, downendcity said:

Obviously this will have nothing to do with Barcelona’s mountain of debt! :whistle:

If it did not already exist, this will only precipitate the gulf between the haves and the have nots. Odds on a European super league anyone?

........................or lets have a 36 team "Champions League" (don't use the word Super whatever you do otherwise all the smaller clubs will get wind of what's happening and try and block it) using made up co-efficients so that we can effectively block teams like Ajax who have genuinely won their league and fill it with fifth and sixth placed but bigger stature Spanish/Italian/French/English clubs............if West Ham/Grenada/Spezia finish fifth give them a co-efficient of zero and let 13th placed Tottenham Hotspur/ Sevilla/Udinese in instead.

Anybody who watches that crap really needs their head examining imo.

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Get the point and agree but Ajax 3 European Cups and a CL. 4 in total.

Reached semis as recently as 2019, Granada, Spezia, even Weat Ham bigger stature?? West Ham clearly bigger than 1st two but that coefficent thing a terrible rule.

As for Ajax and similar clubs, Bosman helped kill it for them in terms of consistently having a crack at the higher levels. Ajax have a great history though, and occasionally put a run together in Europe.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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1 hour ago, downendcity said:

Obviously this will have nothing to do with Barcelona’s mountain of debt! :whistle:

If it did not already exist, this will only precipitate the gulf between the haves and the have nots. Odds on a European super league anyone?

Interesting how save travel would work across  borders in an on running pandemic 

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10 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Get the point and agree but Ajax 3 European Cups and a CL. 4 in total.

Reached semis as recently as 2019, Granada, Spezia, even Weat Ham bigger stature?? West Ham clearly bigger than 1st two but that coefficent thing a terrible rule.

As for Ajax and similar clubs, Bosman helped kill it for them in terms of consistently having a crack at the higher levels. Ajax have a great history though, and occasionally put a run together in Europe.

What I'm saying (probably badly) is if the likes Grenada, Spezia and West Ham (bigger but not big enough for UEFA's liking) finish fifth their co-efficient will not let them in and neither do UEFA want them in their little plaything. Leicester City would probably be a better example - actually competitive on a consistent basis but not the type of team UEFA would want in their "final 36"..............

The article I read seemed to imply that Ajax are the type of club that might miss out. If anyone could explain that to me..........................

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1 hour ago, downendcity said:

Obviously this will have nothing to do with Barcelona’s mountain of debt! :whistle:

If it did not already exist, this will only precipitate the gulf between the haves and the have nots. Odds on a European super league anyone?

Oddly enough...it depends.

Debt isn't in of itself a disqualifying factor (perhaps it should be), the interest on that debt sees FFP losses tick up however.

Their debt stockpile is actually similar to Tottenham. SwissRamble did a bit of a breakdown of European clubs a while back.

Short term nature of a lot of the debt plus Covid is a bad combination for Barcelona. Flipside is if no Covid quite a lot might have been paid down without issue.

Bayern are exemplary though. Paid down their Stadium debt 10-20 years early!!

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9 minutes ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

Interesting how save travel would work across  borders in an on running pandemic 

You can see it now................all English teams ordered to play home games in Azerbaijan because the French and German Governments (that's Governments not Football Associations) won't allow their clubs to come here.

Edited by Numero Uno
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56 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Leicester a fine example. Would Sheffield United have gone up without? Tottenham have used the system well.

Overseas Atalanta an interesting example, Ajax periodically return to prpmince. Did it help Atletico, Borussia Dortmund and Leipzig grow? Arguably yes.

 

The only thing with that is that other clubs did rise to prominence during the 2000's when Premier League and La Liga were booming.

Deportivo La Coruna, FC Porto, Monaco, Celtic, Shakhtar Donetsk, Valencia, Zenit St Petersburg, Middlesbrough, Sevilla, Feyenoord all reaching major Semi finals or finals at European Competitions. 
Football is a cyclist game, not much has really changed since then, if anything the gap has widened in the past 10 years you may say when you look at the list of Champions League Winners. Ajax your example have always been a club that every other decade rise to prominence in Europe, judging by their own History, and they too have a helping hand that they have plenty of young talent to pick from across Netherlands and Belgium.

FFP restricts club's like ourselves to spend and reach our full potential. Better checks need to be done regarding ownerships of club's, but it is down to the club on what they spend their money on. Not much has really changed in terms of new club's rising up in Europe. Kaiserslautern of the 90s are now a 3rd tier side and clubs like Leicester or Leeds come and go.

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1 minute ago, Numero Uno said:

What I'm saying (probably badly) is if the likes Grenada, Spezia and West Ham (bigger but not big enough for UEFA's liking) finish fifth their co-efficient will not let them in and neither do UEFA want them in their little plaything. Leicester City would probably be a better example - actually competitive on a consistent basis but not the type of team UEFA would want in their "final 36"..............

The article I read seemed to imply that Ajax are the type of club that might miss out. If anyone could explain that to me..........................

Grenada? The little island in the Caribbean?

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30 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Oddly enough...it depends.

Debt isn't in of itself a disqualifying factor (perhaps it should be), the interest on that debt sees FFP losses tick up however.

Their debt stockpile is actually similar to Tottenham. SwissRamble did a bit of a breakdown of European clubs a while back.

Short term nature of a lot of the debt plus Covid is a bad combination for Barcelona. Flipside is if no Covid quite a lot might have been paid down without issue.

Bayern are exemplary though. Paid down their Stadium debt 10-20 years early!!

I think I’m righting saying  that Spurs accumulated their debt as a result of redeveloping WHL, whereas  Barca has it’s eye watering level of debt before redeveloping their stadium!

 

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23 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I think it would ultimately be good news for clubs like ours. We have the opportunity for decent backing, but FFP clips our wings and hands the advantage to parachute payment clubs or those that overspend. 

The risk though is it enables the giant clubs to leave others eating dust with no way to make up ground. I think FFP has helped clubs like Leicester for example.

Clubs like Leicester who broke ffp rules to get promoted to the Prem?.

 

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On 24/03/2021 at 15:27, downendcity said:

I think I’m righting saying  that Spurs accumulated their debt as a result of redeveloping WHL, whereas  Barca has it’s eye watering level of debt before redeveloping their stadium!

 

Agreed- just saying that the stockpile of debt if longer term wouldn't have been such an issue for Barcelona and maybe if not for Covid they would have hit some of those early repayments and moved gradually into a better position, improved balance sheet. Not sure how they managed to rack up so much anyway given their huge income (pre Covid)- it's shot up over the last decade- but the repayment Schedule definitely can tie in- Big Short Term Liability + Covid Revenue Decimation= Big Problem. The debt doesn't actually improve the Profit and Loss position (relevant for FFP)...so I'm actually at a bit of a loss as to where it all went.

Refinancing the debt of course is possible, seems commonplace but that would surely come at a higher Interest rate- and this would impact FFP.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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Read bits about this online, UEFA spoke to European Parliament about it last week.

Said something also about relevant stakeholders blah blah etc- finish consultation by end of the year, unsure if it means season, financial year or 2021- I'd be surprised if changes were introduced effective immediately.

Some bits about possible wage caps or luxury taxes since Hard Caps could well fall foul of EU Law. Don't think it'll be transformed into a free for all- FFP maybe scrapped but it'll be replaced by new regulations I suspect.

Definitely an argument that it's done its job to some extent- talking at the UEFA level- imagine if clubs had come into the Pandemic with pre FFP completely unregulated spending, talking in the top divisions across Europe. How many would have gone to the wall? Football League and especially Championship is an unusual case given the huge disparity with Parachute Payments, odd loopholes- UEFA regs adjust out the Profit on Disposal of Fixed Assets from FFP calcs amongst other things.

Example would be: You can spend unlimited on Infrastructure, to build up the club but stealing a short term advantage by selling your ground to your owner- the two are harmonised basically. If Depreciation and Impairment of said Fixed Assets are excluded, as in our regs, and spending on Infrastructure is excluded- again as in our regs which I agree with, then so too is the Profit on Disposal of said Assets. Nothing to stop you doing it but it just doesn't count as "Relevant Income" for UEFA FFP.

It's simple and consistent basically- and actually 'selling' a Fixed Asset for a short term Profit can lead to issues down the line- masks an underlying loss one year- it's artificial and if as a club you keep spending based on that 'profit' you can run into financial trouble down the line- both FFP and solvency.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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