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Was SOD about to turn it around?


Davefevs
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I was a bit of a part-timer through the GJ years to McIness and only started taking Joe during 13/14 (Peterborough 0-3 at home 1st game).

I was looking at results, both end of 12/13, when he started off well, then big losing run at end of season (relegated) that he carried into the League One campaign.  Having gone weeks and weeks without a win, he picked up a couple of wins (and 9pts in 5 games) before a terrible 0-1 at home to Sheffield Utd.

The rest is history.

I know a lot of us agree that he laid some foundations both in terms of infrastructure and players (and Keith Burt), that Cotts, and then LJ benefitted from.

For those of you regulars in 13/14, do any of you think the tide was turning?

GJ also started with a shocking start.

Cotts was far from stellar either, although nowhere near the extremes of GJ.

Is Pearson’s start in any way similar?  Just wondering if a poor start helps see the true issues that need resolving?

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2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

For those of you regulars in 13/14, do any of you think the tide was turning?

 

Honestly? No not at all. Football was terrible, the fact he had the personality of a slug that’s just had salt poured over him didn’t help his cause with the fans or board.

But I don’t think the tide was turning at all and I do genuinely believe if he saw out the season we would have been playing in league 2 the next season!

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Honestly? No.

I wasn’t a SOD fan but would certainly agree that many of his signings, at a time when we had very little money, were good ones.

Fielding, Williams, Flint, Wagstaff, JET, Pack, to name 6.

Difference between SOD & Pearson was that the former had a transfer window & also we had already started a cost cutting operation after relegation that saw Heaton (& Nyatanga!) turn down contract offers & leave, whilst we didn’t even bother getting that far with either Skuse or Stead.

For me SOD’s man management skills (as Fielding has said since) did for him, plus some truly awful performances & results, usually any game that we won was because JET bailed us out.

Pearson is far nearer the beginning of the cycle, no transfer window yet, no opportunity to move people on, so although results have been terrible we don’t yet have the chance to see how he operates once he does.

To be fair to SOD, Pearson will also be running an operation that even with tight finances will be nothing life how SOD had to manage.

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22 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I was a bit of a part-timer through the GJ years to McIness and only started taking Joe during 13/14 (Peterborough 0-3 at home 1st game).

I was looking at results, both end of 12/13, when he started off well, then big losing run at end of season (relegated) that he carried into the League One campaign.  Having gone weeks and weeks without a win, he picked up a couple of wins (and 9pts in 5 games) before a terrible 0-1 at home to Sheffield Utd.

The rest is history.

I know a lot of us agree that he laid some foundations both in terms of infrastructure and players (and Keith Burt), that Cotts, and then LJ benefitted from.

For those of you regulars in 13/14, do any of you think the tide was turning?

GJ also started with a shocking start.

Cotts was far from stellar either, although nowhere near the extremes of GJ.

Is Pearson’s start in any way similar?  Just wondering if a poor start helps see the true issues that need resolving?

stupid question!

 

 

 

:ph34r:

vP1Gl5.gif

Edited by exAtyeoMax
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15 minutes ago, super slick said:

Honestly? No not at all. Football was terrible, the fact he had the personality of a slug that’s just had salt poured over him didn’t help his cause with the fans or board.

But I don’t think the tide was turning at all and I do genuinely believe if he saw out the season we would have been playing in league 2 the next season!

his hands again were tied at the time but he brought in flint pack fielding started to build the base for the promotion team 

 

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Maybe Dave. As I mentioned in an earlier thread neither Ferguson or Shankly started there tenures particularly well. 

Of course Nige's results so far have been dreadful. 

As far as GJ's tenure is concerned I remember it being like a blaze in a firework factory. 

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Yes he brought in Flint but then said we paid too much which did wonders for his confidence - if you recall, Flint started poorly with us. It was painful to watch his communications, culminating in the stupid question interview. Perhaps he would have been better as coach rather than manager. 

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Just now, eardun said:

Yes he brought in Flint but then said we paid too much which did wonders for his confidence - if you recall, Flint started poorly with us. It was painful to watch his communications, culminating in the stupid question interview. Perhaps he would have been better as coach rather than manager. 

I know exactly how the Flint negotiations went as I had the conversation with Sean, Keith & Pembo 2 days before we bought him. We did overpay. Not by a lot. But we did. 
Thing is, what Sean would’ve been referring to there was more to do with his budget as opposed to Flints abilities. As I mentioned above, he was working to a hugely tight structure and I think he was a little annoyed that we hadn’t negotiated a bit harder on Flint so as to give him a bit more elsewhere. 
 

I do agree that certain things he said in the media didn’t help his cause though. I think his media image did for him just as much as the results. 

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He'd of been "turning it around" from the 4th division if he'd stayed.

Before crowds of about 7,000.  

Everyone else would have given up on his "pass around in your box 30 times until you lose possession and concede" variety of tedium ball.  Myself included. 

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Just now, Red-Robbo said:

He'd of been "turning it around" from the 4th division if he'd stayed.

Before crowds of about 7,000.  

Everyone else would have given up on his "pass around in your box 30 times until you lose possession and concede" variety of tedium ball.  Myself included. 

still could have done a Bournemouth before Bournemouth did !

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I recall when GJ was appointed, my choice at that time would have been SO’D (ironically, when LJ was appointed I wanted us to go for Pearson so I get there, just a couple of appointments down the line!)

I really liked how he’d done at Bournemouth and thought he could really push us on. When he did get the job, as with a lot of managers, it was a time when it didn’t play to his strengths - he’s a builder, he’s a developer. He’s not a “let’s manage a bloated McInnes squad”.

So, I think, and have always thought, right man at the wrong time. The job at that time and the limited room for manoeuvre/bringing players on just didn’t play to his strengths.

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Just to add. Re the Flint price. 
Consider that he had to sell Albert, for around £1m, and was then told that none of that was available to him for replacements. 
Consider that he spent £600k, half of which was on Flint. Even if we’d managed to cut the fee by £100k, Sean & Keith would’ve spent it wisely. Instead he had no more money to play with, and had to scrap around for free transfers. 
Again - I know that things weren’t looking great on the pitch, but he was massively up against it with powerful people at the club not really backing him. 

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Remember his Doncaster team playing top quality football at the Gate a few seasons before he joined us.

He clearly was intelligent, possibly too intelligent for League 1 footballers. What did him for me was his complete focus on possession football and lack of care about results or league position. Football’s about winning, not possession. ..and I don’t think, particularly in League 1, possession counts for much unless you have truly exceptional players and real teamwork.

As much as I loved Flinty - and thought his skills were much unrated - he wasn’t really ever going to be a great fit in a possession based team. The fact that SoD, as others have referred too, told everyone we overpaid for him was not the best example of man-management and possibly a reflection of a weakness that affected players and team performances. 
 

Simple answer, no - we were heading at an alarming rate to the basement. 

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17 minutes ago, Harry said:

Many will disagree with me, and I can perfectly well see their logic, but I was closely involved with Sean when he was here. 
He had huge challenges during his tenure. He had a large number of players he didn’t want, on large contracts that he couldn’t shift, he had players who had severe alcohol problems who were horrendously unfit. He had a limited budget, in fact, he didn’t really have a budget, he had to create his own by manoeuvring players out. He was on a remit to bring in youngsters, but knowing that pressure of results would still be his performance indicator (much like Nigel has intimated re not exposing youngsters in the wrong environment). He helped the academy project to achieve Cat 2. He had people in various roles (which our friend Ashton had assigned in his consultancy period) whom he had no idea who they were or what they were supposed to be doing (this relates largely to the recruitment analysts brought in). 
There were mistakes that he made, of course. And the football was often abject, so I can totally understand why people say he was an utter failure here, but believe me, as someone who had regular contact with him at the time, there were a mountain of problems he was dealing with and he had zero support from certain people at the club. 
I think, given time, he’d have turned things around, but I can absolutely see why many would not agree with that. 
Remember that Sean was responsible for assembling half of the promotion winning squad that is so much revered by many (Fielding, Flint, Williams, Pack, Wagstaff, Jet, as well as giving Reid & Bryan their first full stints and gradually introduced them). Yes, Cotts (and Burt) later added more of the right ingredients but Sean had laid the foundations for that squad. 

So yeah, lots of issues to resolve when here, laid some foundations for the future, but ultimately judged on results. I’m 100% certain that he’d have turned things around though as I know exactly what he was doing and what he was planning (along with Burt). 

Involved in what role?

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Had SoD had a more amiable countenance and given the time and resources as LJ was then yeah, I reckon he would have turned us into a decent outfit.

He’s a very well respected coach in the football industry.

I don’t think he got on well with the hierarchy at AG, particularly SL...

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1 minute ago, RedRock said:

Remember his Doncaster team playing top quality football at the Gate a few seasons before he joined us.

He clearly was intelligent, possibly too intelligent for League 1 footballers. What did him for me was his complete focus on possession football and lack of care about results or league position. Football’s about winning, not possession. ..and I don’t think, particularly in League 1, possession counts for much unless you have truly exceptional players and real teamwork.

As much as I loved Flinty - and thought his skills were much unrated - he wasn’t really ever going to be a great fit in a possession based team. The fact that SoD, as others have referred too, told everyone we overpaid for him was not the best example of man-management and possibly a reflection of a weakness that affected players and team performances. 
 

Simple answer, no - we were heading at an alarming rate to the basement. 

if the opposition don't have the ball they don't score  

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34 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Honestly? No.

I wasn’t a SOD fan but would certainly agree that many of his signings, at a time when we had very little money, were good ones.

Fielding, Williams, Flint, Wagstaff, JET, Pack, to name 6.

Difference between SOD & Pearson was that the former had a transfer window & also we had already started a cost cutting operation after relegation that saw Heaton (& Nyatanga!) turn down contract offers & leave, whilst we didn’t even bother getting that far with either Skuse or Stead.

For me SOD’s man management skills (as Fielding has said since) did for him, plus some truly awful performances & results, usually any game that we won was because JET bailed us out.

Pearson is far nearer the beginning of the cycle, no transfer window yet, no opportunity to move people on, so although results have been terrible we don’t yet have the chance to see how he operates once he does.

To be fair to SOD, Pearson will also be running an operation that even with tight finances will be nothing life how SOD had to manage.

That JETPack player was good mind - flying high now..

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2 minutes ago, RedRock said:

Remember his Doncaster team playing top quality football at the Gate a few seasons before he joined us.

He clearly was intelligent, possibly too intelligent for League 1 footballers. What did him for me was his complete focus on possession football and lack of care about results or league position. Football’s about winning, not possession. ..and I don’t think, particularly in League 1, possession counts for much unless you have truly exceptional players and real teamwork.

As much as I loved Flinty - and thought his skills were much unrated - he wasn’t really ever going to be a great fit in a possession based team. The fact that SoD, as others have referred too, told everyone we overpaid for him was not the best example of man-management and possibly a reflection of a weakness that affected players and team performances. 
 

Simple answer, no - we were heading at an alarming rate to the basement. 

Including JET tearing us apart from memory. 

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18 minutes ago, Harry said:

I know exactly how the Flint negotiations went as I had the conversation with Sean, Keith & Pembo 2 days before we bought him. We did overpay. Not by a lot. But we did. 
Thing is, what Sean would’ve been referring to there was more to do with his budget as opposed to Flints abilities. As I mentioned above, he was working to a hugely tight structure and I think he was a little annoyed that we hadn’t negotiated a bit harder on Flint so as to give him a bit more elsewhere. 
 

I do agree that certain things he said in the media didn’t help his cause though. I think his media image did for him just as much as the results. 

Great post. He had the right ideas.

Ignoring his history, would you have him back at City? I could see a role for him in recruitment or the academy.

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53 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I was a bit of a part-timer through the GJ years to McIness and only started taking Joe during 13/14 (Peterborough 0-3 at home 1st game).

I was looking at results, both end of 12/13, when he started off well, then big losing run at end of season (relegated) that he carried into the League One campaign.  Having gone weeks and weeks without a win, he picked up a couple of wins (and 9pts in 5 games) before a terrible 0-1 at home to Sheffield Utd.

The rest is history.

I know a lot of us agree that he laid some foundations both in terms of infrastructure and players (and Keith Burt), that Cotts, and then LJ benefitted from.

For those of you regulars in 13/14, do any of you think the tide was turning?

GJ also started with a shocking start.

Cotts was far from stellar either, although nowhere near the extremes of GJ.

Is Pearson’s start in any way similar?  Just wondering if a poor start helps see the true issues that need resolving?

I must’ve had a lobotomy that I’m not aware of as whenever SoD is mentioned I always think he wasn’t given enough time and would’ve indeed turned it around.  I also think that the football under LJ over the last couple of seasons and under Holden is as bad if not worse as it was under SoD and don’t understand the amount of stick he is still give to this day .  Mind you I was in my twenties back then and so was a little more ‘hazy’ on match days than I am nowadays so maybe that has something to do with it 😗

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6 minutes ago, nellie said:

still could have done a Bournemouth before Bournemouth did !

 Bournemouth were in a different position before SOD became manager.

SOD had been at the club for 16 years and had been on the coaching staff before he was given the boss's chair. He knew the players inside out and Mel Machin had assembled a decent team.

What's more interesting is what he did after City. A 16-game spell at Walsall where he took over a club flying high, but after starting well reverted to tappa-tappa-losethe ball stuff as seen at City and only won 2 of his last 11 games.  The new manager John Whitney restored winning ways, but SOD's spell left the Saddlers one point from automatic promotion at the end of the season and losing the pray-offs to Barnsley. 

SOD would never manage a club again. 

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