Derby County

[Hxj]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

I have to say, if it did got the High Court it would be a bloody interesting test of the rules and regulations. The judgment would be fascinating whichever way the Court ruled.

I can't wait to see it.

So the position on dcfcfans seems to be:

"How dare the EFL say that their rules are more important than the insolvency legislation when it comes to the Middlesbrough and Wycombe claims".

I've no problem with that.

All the 'Football Creditors' are unsecured.  Therefore in order to apply the insolvency legislation correctly all debts must be paid in full to ensure that all 'Football Creditors' are paid in full otherwise Derby will lose their EFL membership.

A classic case of not thinking about the consequences of your arguments.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Hxj

[Bristol Rob]

 

 

[ExiledAjax]

Well **** me. One of them gets it.

Get this man a medal.

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

I have to say, if it did got the High Court it would be a bloody interesting test of the rules and regulations. The judgment would be fascinating whichever way the Court ruled.

The courts really don't like getting involved in the internal affairs of sporting bodies so I wouldn't hold out too much hope.

Still, the High Court might find that the EFL regulations do not apply to Derby County on the novel legal grounds that Brian Clough used to be their manager perhaps.

[ExiledAjax]

Just now, chinapig said:

The courts really don't like getting involved in the internal affairs of sporting bodies so I wouldn't hold out too much hope.

Still, the High Court might find that the EFL regulations do not apply to Derby County on the novel legal grounds that Brian Clough used to be their manager perhaps.

I for one, cannot wait to see Rooney in his silks and wig.

[chinapig]

3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Well **** me. One of them gets it.

Get this man a medal.

I assume they have been banned from the forum by now.

[BTRFTG]

1 minute ago, ExiledAjax said:

I for one, cannot wait to see Rooney in his silks and wig.

In which case: If the aged Judge is of the Distaff persuasion I trust Wayne will be behind a thick, perspex screen.....

[Monkeh]

I take that statement as the efl running out of patience with derby their slurs and the administrators 

[REDOXO]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

Well **** me. One of them gets it.

Get this man a medal.

Yes someone should, however it still overlooks Derby County agreed to the rules as part of membership to the EFL. Thus it’s a stretch to think they will get much change from the High Court. 
 

However if they do perhaps someone should think about a proper UK constitution with a clause that says private member clubs may not have membership rules that have a higher standard of UK bankruptcy rules than HMRC. Cram down attempts not withstanding! :laugh:!

I do attend to agree with the chap up the thread. The EFL have had enough. Kill or Cure time and most football supporters outside of Derbyshire don’t care anymore. 

[Yellow&Blue&Red]

Who would even take the EFL to court? I don't understand what people mean about this going to court. Even if there was a case, and there blatantly isn't, who would sue the EFL? Mel Morris is out of it. New buyers won't. Administrators can't/wouldn't.

Am I missing or misunderstanding something?

[Monkeh]

5 minutes ago, Yellow&Blue&Red said:

Who would even take the EFL to court? I don't understand what people mean about this going to court. Even if there was a case, and there blatantly isn't, who would sue the EFL? Mel Morris is out of it. New buyers won't. Administrators can't/wouldn't.

Am I missing or misunderstanding something?

And sue them for what? Enforcing the rules of a private members club that in effect is what the football league is,

and if derby did take it to court, it would open up legal action from every club who entered admin and left using said rules which in turn would prob bankrupt and fold the league structure

[semblar]

Isn't there something in EFL rules about using arbitration as a condition of membership?

[REDOXO]

32 minutes ago, Yellow&Blue&Red said:

Who would even take the EFL to court? I don't understand what people mean about this going to court. Even if there was a case, and there blatantly isn't, who would sue the EFL? Mel Morris is out of it. New buyers won't. Administrators can't/wouldn't.

Am I missing or misunderstanding something?

There are multiple facets to this now. But it seems that Derby supporters think there could be a case for the High Court to ponder over the league enforcing their rules that Derby signed up to because they place a higher standard on DCFC to maintain their place in the EFL than the cram down they really want to stay in existence.

(So to answer your question directly Quantuma, who are the administrators of the club would have to do it, further getting paid for taking Derby fans up yet another blind alley)
 

Even getting in to the HC on any sort of useful timeframe would be a feat of in itself. 

Edited February 3, 2022 by REDOXO

[Hxj]

 

37 minutes ago, Yellow&Blue&Red said:

Who would even take the EFL to court? I don't understand what people mean about this going to court.

30 minutes ago, semblar said:

Isn't there something in EFL rules about using arbitration as a condition of membership?

There is a lot of confusion about the issues.

The short version is: 

"FFS Quantuma - do something!"

Or slightly longer:

"Either do the EFL arbitration process as required in the regulations, or make an application to the High Court to do a reconstruction aka cross class cram down,"

Edited February 3, 2022 by Hxj

[Ska Junkie]

Hang on, are we saying Derby are now disputing a set of rules they, themselves, signed up to?

I can't see that ending well for them, with all possible respect.

The first bit about 'gaining an advantage' is interesting too, as that's pretty much / exactly what they (Derby) were doing isn't it?

Edited February 3, 2022 by Ska Junkie

[REDOXO]

1 minute ago, Ska Junkie said:

Hang on, are we saying Derby are now disputing a set of rules they, themselves, signed up to?

I can't see that ending well for them, with all possible respect.

The first bit about 'gaining an advantage' is interesting too, as that's pretty much / exactly what they (Derby) were doing isn't it?

 

[Davefevs]

I can’t see them resolving this.  Think they’re gonna be liquidated.

[REDOXO]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

I can’t see them resolving this.  Think they’re gonna be liquidated.

Every day I think this is more likely. 
 

Derby County/Morris/Quantuma have challenged the EFL who most would say haven’t done a great deal wrong. Morris flouted the rules of the league roared on by Derby fans, while building a hopeless amount of debt and buying the stadium. 
 

Gibson and to be fair Lansdown spoke publicly about it a while back. Gibson went after Morris, Couhig is doing what he is bound to fo under his fiduciary duty and Quantuma get paid for misleading people that bought their and Morris bullshit!

[PHILINFRANCE]

2 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

In which case: If the aged Judge is of the Distaff persuasion I trust Wayne will be behind a thick, perspex screen.....

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by PHILINFRANCE

[chinapig]

16 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

Hang on, are we saying Derby are now disputing a set of rules they, themselves, signed up to?

So it seems, though the argument their fans are making is still essentially that they are special so the rules don't apply to them. Coincidentally an argument being used in political circles.

Come to think of it Sue Gray is at a loose end at the moment, perhaps she could arbitrate?

[Monkeh]

The longer this has gone on the more I'm convinced quantuma don't want to resolve this,

They are point fingers at everyone lying to the fans and Rooney as well as getting deluded fans to get their pitchforks out to burn down the efl 

This administrator just want money, the longer it goes on the more money they earn

What the Derby fans should be asking is how much has quantuma been earning out of this?

 

And yes davefevs I came to that conclusion at Xmas and posted it a few weeks back,

I see nothing but Derby being liquidated as the outcome

[REDOXO]

8 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

Maybe  a few of the potential investors are preferring liquidation and then start from ground zero . They may start in non league , not sure where though . But they would rapidly rise back up . 

 Many many many pages ago I did mention this in conversation. Club worth nothing ground worth dirt. If I were a purchaser it would be the thing of story books and not out of the question. 
 

But who would take a new Derby. My mates are Aldershot fans and I went to places like Witney, Basingstoke and Wokingham with between 1500 and 4000. Can you imagine Derby County in the West Botinghamshire division three. 
 

The lowest even a reformed club could go is Conference North just because of logistics. 

[Ska Junkie]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I can’t see them resolving this.  Think they’re gonna be liquidated.

I'm inclined to agree, the latest moves seem those of desperation.

Big club, yes but certainly  not 'special' enough to flout rules they had already signed up to and agreed, while 'seeking an advantage' by doing it.

I get the impression they're done, sadly. 

They knew the rules I guess.

[Ska Junkie]

40 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

 Many many many pages ago I did mention this in conversation. Club worth nothing ground worth dirt. If I were a purchaser it would be the thing of story books and not out of the question. 
 

But who would take a new Derby. My mates are Aldershot fans and I went to places like Witney, Basingstoke and Wokingham with between 1500 and 4000. Can you imagine Derby County in the West Botinghamshire division three. 
 

The lowest even a reformed club could go is Conference North just because of logistics. 

Where did Wimbledon restart and Bury for that matter? The Combined counties premier league (tier 9), in Wimbledons case. North West counties division 1 in Burys (tier 10). The comparison for Derby is the Midlands football league division 1 or the united counties league, division 1, both tier 10.

Each league has a Premier division which is clearly tier 9.

Long, long way back.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Ska Junkie

[Yellow&Blue&Red]

6 hours ago, Ska Junkie said:

Where did Wimbledon restart...? The Combined counties premier league (tier 9).

Long, long way back.

It was fun though. Derby fans will enjoy it. If they buy it and do it themselves, they'll never get mistreated again.

[Sir Geoff]

8 hours ago, Hxj said:

 

There is a lot of confusion about the issues.

The short version is: 

"FFS Quantuma - do something!"

Or slightly longer:

"Either do the EFL arbitration process as required in the regulations, or make an application to the High Court to do a reconstruction aka cross class cram down,"

Steve Gibson has been seeking arbitration with Quantuma since they were appointed and even before that with MM. Apparently Gibson has heard nothing from Quantuma since his approach to them back at the beginning (September ?). This is ALL on them.

[HitchinRed]

I’m guessing there’s are plenty of other smaller creditors that are owed money in addition to the big boys named in the proposed arbitration. 

It does seem inherently unfair that the likes of Middlesbrough get preferential treatment over the 1 man band from down the road that may have sorted out the club’s electrics problems, for example.

I’m not saying that the EFL’s approach is illegal or looking to override Insolvency Law. They are simply saying to the Administrator to pay the football creditors first or get banned from the league. If this were the case, it would seriously devalue the club and reduce the amount that any new purchasers would pay for the club - reducing the pay out for all creditors.

The problem is that there is a limit to the amount that the new purchasers will want to put into the club, and if all this goes to the Football Creditors, they’ll be little left for anyone else. In this case, there is little reason for these creditors to agree to such an arrangement - they might be better off pushing the club into insolvency.

In my opinion, it’s not in anyone’s best interest to drive the club into insolvency, and therefore everyone will come to an agreement sooner or later. At the moment it’s just a poker game with everyone trying to bluff each other in order to secure a bigger payout for themselves.

[Monkeh]

10 minutes ago, HitchinRed said:

I’m guessing there’s are plenty of other smaller creditors that are owed money in addition to the big boys named in the proposed arbitration. 

It does seem inherently unfair that the likes of Middlesbrough get preferential treatment over the 1 man band from down the road that may have sorted out the club’s electrics problems, for example.

I’m not saying that the EFL’s approach is illegal or looking to override Insolvency Law. They are simply saying to the Administrator to pay the football creditors first or get banned from the league. If this were the case, it would seriously devalue the club and reduce the amount that any new purchasers would pay for the club - reducing the pay out for all creditors.

The problem is that there is a limit to the amount that the new purchasers will want to put into the club, and if all this goes to the Football Creditors, they’ll be little left for anyone else. In this case, there is little reason for these creditors to agree to such an arrangement - they might be better off pushing the club into insolvency.

In my opinion, it’s not in anyone’s best interest to drive the club into insolvency, and therefore everyone will come to an agreement sooner or later. At the moment it’s just a poker game with everyone trying to bluff each other in order to secure a bigger payout for themselves.

The problem is, there is so little money in the lower leagues that the efl put the football creditors rule in to protect other clubs,

Imagine if Derby owed us 25 million in transfer fees, they went into administration and that debt was wiped off in turn putting us into administration which in turn puts Swindon into administration because we owe them money,

The Football creditor rule is vital to protecting the integrity of the competition,

Otherwise clubs rake up millions in transfer debt go into admin reset with better players and no punishment

 

That and all the crying Derby fans don't think they are in debt, they forget about the hmrc

[HitchinRed]

3 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Imagine if Derby owed us 25 million in transfer fees, they went into administration and that debt was wiped off in turn putting us into administration which in turn puts Swindon into administration because we owe them money

I think the reality of Administration is that there is not enough money going round. If I was running a cleaning business that was forced into liquidation because a football club couldn’t pay its bills, would I be happy will millions being paid to a Football Creditor instead? Absolutely not.

In terms of the integrity of the league - I’m not sure it shows much integrity to force smaller companies out of business in order to protect your colleagues. I would suggest it shows much more integrity to let these companies go out of business. Maybe then these owners will think more about the impact of their decisions. But then again, maybe not!

[Monkeh]

27 minutes ago, HitchinRed said:

I think the reality of Administration is that there is not enough money going round. If I was running a cleaning business that was forced into liquidation because a football club couldn’t pay its bills, would I be happy will millions being paid to a Football Creditor instead? Absolutely not.

In terms of the integrity of the league - I’m not sure it shows much integrity to force smaller companies out of business in order to protect your colleagues. I would suggest it shows much more integrity to let these companies go out of business. Maybe then these owners will think more about the impact of their decisions. But then again, maybe not!

That's not the leagues fault though, that is solely Derby county's fault,

The league enforce the rules they don't  manage the clubs, 

It wasn't the leagues choice for Derby not to pay the hmrc or to cheat,