Mr Popodopolous Posted January 20, 2022 Report Share Posted January 20, 2022 (edited) Interesting to note that Derby aren't paying rent on Pride Park!? Nixon... Hope the EFL are on this. A paper transaction at the very least needs to be there for FFP purposes! That's not to say that it doesn't figure because the Gellaw Newco 202 and the Gellaw Newco 204 accounts for 2019 and 2020 showed nothing- not even a paper transaction. Unique among clubs who have 'sold' and leased back their grounds! Edited January 20, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTRFTG Posted January 20, 2022 Report Share Posted January 20, 2022 11 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Interesting to note that Derby aren't paying rent on Pride Park!? Nixon... Hope the EFL are on this. A paper transaction at the very least needs to be there for FFP purposes! That's not to say that it doesn't figure because the Gellaw Newco 202 and the Gellaw Newco 204 accounts for 2019 and 2020 showed nothing- not even a paper transaction. Unique among clubs who have 'sold' and leased back their grounds! As no monies were exchanged during the sale (other than the 3rd party loan charged by MSD against the freehold,) why would the holding company expect to receive rent? Other than to create an artificial 'income' (sic) the beneficial owner of the stadium never changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted January 20, 2022 Report Share Posted January 20, 2022 13 minutes ago, BTRFTG said: As no monies were exchanged during the sale (other than the 3rd party loan charged by MSD against the freehold,) why would the holding company expect to receive rent? Other than to create an artificial 'income' (sic) the beneficial owner of the stadium never changed. Gellaw Newco 202 and 204 sit outside the football group. Had it been or remained within the same group, then the profit would have not been a factor for FFP. Whether it's real or paper, there needs to be something for this season and beyond. Possibly all of the transactions were paper but where profits/'profits' count towards FFP, so must the rent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted January 20, 2022 Report Share Posted January 20, 2022 Presumably Bielik or Jozwiak? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted January 20, 2022 Report Share Posted January 20, 2022 39 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Interesting to note that Derby aren't paying rent on Pride Park!? Nixon... Hope the EFL are on this. A paper transaction at the very least needs to be there for FFP purposes! That's not to say that it doesn't figure because the Gellaw Newco 202 and the Gellaw Newco 204 accounts for 2019 and 2020 showed nothing- not even a paper transaction. Unique among clubs who have 'sold' and leased back their grounds! 25 minutes ago, BTRFTG said: As no monies were exchanged during the sale (other than the 3rd party loan charged by MSD against the freehold,) why would the holding company expect to receive rent? Other than to create an artificial 'income' (sic) the beneficial owner of the stadium never changed. Almost as if the stadium sale was a bit dodgy isn’t it? That just makes the decision to allow a “sale” of £81m look massively generous to Derby. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTRFTG Posted January 20, 2022 Report Share Posted January 20, 2022 7 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Gellaw Newco 202 and 204 sit outside the football group. Had it been or remained within the same group, then the profit would have not been a factor for FFP. Whether it's real or paper, there needs to be something for this season and beyond. Possibly all of the transactions were paper but where profits/'profits' count towards FFP, so must the rent. Without accounts who knows? Perchance if there is a lease it came either with an extended rent free period, else peppercorn rent. Of course, if the former, there should still show an amortized charge against both budget and liability but nothing against cashflow. I'm not sure how FFP deals with lease amortization? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTRFTG Posted January 20, 2022 Report Share Posted January 20, 2022 4 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Almost as if the stadium sale was a bit dodgy isn’t it? That just makes the decision to allow a “sale” of £81m look massively generous to Derby. Not to forget there was an existing floating charge against the freehold from when it was constructed though I'm told that was minimal. Some time ago I posed the question as to whether the figure of £81m was required to account for that and the MSD charge but apparently not? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted January 20, 2022 Report Share Posted January 20, 2022 5 minutes ago, BTRFTG said: Without accounts who knows? Perchance if there is a lease it came either with an extended rent free period, else peppercorn rent. Of course, if the former, there should still show an amortized charge against both budget and liability but nothing against cashflow. I'm not sure how FFP deals with lease amortization? This is a fair point. If you look at Birmingham, Reading, Sheffield Wednesday and even Aston Villa you will see a corresponding rent payment which is ultimately charged to Profit and Loss. No accounts for Derby for 3 years but looking at the other clubs possibly except Birmingham due to IFRS and the parent being in Hong Kong, rent is on a straight line basis. The company who 'purchased' Pride Park is Gellaw Newco 202. The 'company' who controls them is Gellaw Newco 204, obviously all under Mel Morris ultimately. Neither show rent. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted January 20, 2022 Report Share Posted January 20, 2022 7 minutes ago, BTRFTG said: Not to forget there was an existing floating charge against the freehold from when it was constructed though I'm told that was minimal. Some time ago I posed the question as to whether the figure of £81m was required to account for that and the MSD charge but apparently not? Getting a bit complicated for me now but appreciate the knowledge on here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted January 20, 2022 Report Share Posted January 20, 2022 33 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Almost as if the stadium sale was a bit dodgy isn’t it? That just makes the decision to allow a “sale” of £81m look massively generous to Derby. As if anything Morris did was dodgy! Of course if the stadium was really worth £81 million, and it had stayed within the 'FFP group' there would not be a problem now. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted January 20, 2022 Report Share Posted January 20, 2022 I dont think a white Knight is coming, I dont see Derby escaping this, I'm fully expecting them to be liquaded a week tuesday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted January 20, 2022 Report Share Posted January 20, 2022 1 minute ago, Monkeh said: I dont think a white Knight is coming, I dont see Derby escaping this, I'm fully expecting them to be liquaded a week tuesday Wouldn't be so sure. Nixon is running a story that suggests a rich American tied to one of the bidders is putting up £7m, Rich Riley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted January 20, 2022 Report Share Posted January 20, 2022 6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Wouldn't be so sure. Nixon is running a story that suggests a rich American tied to one of the bidders is putting up £7m, Rich Riley. The elusive preferred bidder that has been imminent for weeks I wonder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchred Posted January 20, 2022 Report Share Posted January 20, 2022 Simon Jordan (knob I know) was confident on talksport this morning that good news was just around the corner for Derby fans! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsene's Wanger Posted January 20, 2022 Report Share Posted January 20, 2022 12 minutes ago, Monkeh said: I dont think a white Knight is coming, I dont see Derby escaping this, I'm fully expecting them to be liquaded a week tuesday Mike Ashley's got a fair bit burning a hole in his pocket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyderInACan Posted January 20, 2022 Report Share Posted January 20, 2022 10 minutes ago, Monkeh said: I dont think a white Knight is coming, I dont see Derby escaping this, I'm fully expecting them to be liquaded a week tuesday Not that I have a particular hatred of Derby, but I think it will take a “big club” going completely and utterly to the wall, and then being hoisted by their own pétards, * to make the game rethink what football means and how it is funded. The status quo just cannot continue. * obvious mixing of metaphors accepted 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exAtyeoMax Posted January 20, 2022 Report Share Posted January 20, 2022 https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/derby-county-pride-park-quantuma-6514394 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted January 21, 2022 Report Share Posted January 21, 2022 (edited) 10 hours ago, exAtyeoMax said: https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/derby-county-pride-park-quantuma-6514394 I dont see how they can force the sale of pride Park, That's like me forcing you to sell your house to pay my bills, If Derby don't legally own pride Park and mel does then how can it be sold with out mels say so, It's as if Mel knew the gamble sold himself the ground as an insurance policy incase his gamble didn't pay off, Like Mel Morris didn't have the club's best interest in mind but his own and used the ground to cover his investment Edited January 21, 2022 by Monkeh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted January 21, 2022 Report Share Posted January 21, 2022 It also seems like the longer this goes on, the more evidence that the administrators haven't got a clue what they are doing and the paper is clutching at any straw thrown at them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exAtyeoMax Posted January 21, 2022 Report Share Posted January 21, 2022 9 minutes ago, Monkeh said: I dont see how they can force the sale of pride Park, That's like me forcing you to sell your house to pay my bills, If Derby don't legally own pride Park and mel does then how can it be sold with out mels say so, It's as if Mel knew the gamble sold himself the ground as an insurance policy incase his gamble didn't pay off, Like Mel Morris didn't have the club's best interest in mind but his own and used the ground to cover his investment Don’t know. If Mel owns the whole lot then he might. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTRFTG Posted January 21, 2022 Report Share Posted January 21, 2022 18 minutes ago, Monkeh said: I dont see how they can force the sale of pride Park, That's like me forcing you to sell your house to pay my bills, If Derby don't legally own pride Park and mel does then how can it be sold with out mels say so, It's as if Mel knew the gamble sold himself the ground as an insurance policy incase his gamble didn't pay off, Like Mel Morris didn't have the club's best interest in mind but his own and used the ground to cover his investment Because there's a charge against the ground and that, ultimately, is guaranteed by Morris. If the club goes bust he's still on the hook to MSD, would have to pay them in cash, but he would still own a pretty much worthless football stadium without a team. He doesn't have to sell, but he'd be crazy not to. Nothing clever about the 'sale' which was done wholly to artificially create 'income' (sic) to improve the FFP figures. Remember, no monies changed hands. Using different companies he effectively bought his own stadium at an inflated price using loans taken from, er, himself (plus the MSD loan used for cashflow.) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh1t_ref_again Posted January 21, 2022 Report Share Posted January 21, 2022 Interesting point of view about the action against Derby https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-10424221/MARTIN-SAMUEL-Middlesbrough-Wycombes-lawsuits-Derby-based-fantasy-seasons.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted January 21, 2022 Report Share Posted January 21, 2022 34 minutes ago, BTRFTG said: Because there's a charge against the ground and that, ultimately, is guaranteed by Morris. If the club goes bust he's still on the hook to MSD, would have to pay them in cash, but he would still own a pretty much worthless football stadium without a team. He doesn't have to sell, but he'd be crazy not to. Nothing clever about the 'sale' which was done wholly to artificially create 'income' (sic) to improve the FFP figures. Remember, no monies changed hands. Using different companies he effectively bought his own stadium at an inflated price using loans taken from, er, himself (plus the MSD loan used for cashflow.) And that's the point, no one knows, sadly it just seems their local rag is clutching at straws and just trying to write anything positive about the situation to me, I mean they must of posted at least 30 articles about the preferred bidder about to be named, in the last 2 or 3 months Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted January 21, 2022 Report Share Posted January 21, 2022 2 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said: Interesting point of view about the action against Derby https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-10424221/MARTIN-SAMUEL-Middlesbrough-Wycombes-lawsuits-Derby-based-fantasy-seasons.html It's just a puff piece, The Middlesborough thing keeps being brought up as if it's come about last minute, But it's been ongoing since 18/19 and Derby keep kicking the can down the road and now crying foul about it, If it had been dealt with like if Derby accepted their punishment last season and took their 5 point deduction instead of appealing 4 or 5 times None of this will be happening, It's a situation of Derby's own making and I have little sympathy for them, only for the fans 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Red Posted January 21, 2022 Report Share Posted January 21, 2022 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTRFTG Posted January 21, 2022 Report Share Posted January 21, 2022 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Monkeh said: And that's the point, no one knows, sadly it just seems their local rag is clutching at straws and just trying to write anything positive about the situation to me, I mean they must of posted at least 30 articles about the preferred bidder about to be named, in the last 2 or 3 months Well we know who the beneficial owner is of each entity and in the case of the loan charge we know it's original value, though reports say further loans have been made to keep the club trading, one assumes secured against the asset. Naturally the local 'rag' will say anything to keep it's viewership onside (not sure Reach publish papers anymore.) The preferred bidder is pretty much 'chicken and egg' as they can't be announced until all bidders are happy that documents provided for their due diligence are in order and they've been able to submit their BAFOs for consideration. As the EFL highlight, by the end of the month the plan needs to be in place and that has to include the EFL having conducted their 'fitness' assessment on whoever the preferred bidder is. They aren't being given much time by the administrators. Edited January 21, 2022 by BTRFTG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted January 21, 2022 Report Share Posted January 21, 2022 4 minutes ago, Monkeh said: It's just a puff piece, The Middlesborough thing keeps being brought up as if it's come about last minute, But it's been ongoing since 18/19 and Derby keep kicking the can down the road and now crying foul about it, If it had been dealt with like if Derby accepted their punishment last season and took their 5 point deduction instead of appealing 4 or 5 times None of this will be happening, It's a situation of Derby's own making and I have little sympathy for them, only for the fans So Samuels is another one who doesn't get that the EFL is not a party to the disputes between the clubs concerned. Nor do the Administrators and their antics get a mention. Seems to be a bit much to expect some journalists to do actual research before pontificating. Next up: HMRC should leave Derby alone because, you know, Brian Clough and stuff. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTRFTG Posted January 21, 2022 Report Share Posted January 21, 2022 More interesting are reports in papers today of Jason Knight saying he'd like to stay at Derby despite attracting serious interest from The Premier. Were I in his shoes, knowing if I don't go this window opportunities will still be there in the summer, what's to lose by sitting it out? Club goes bust I'm a free agent and you can have me for a percentage of what you would have spent on a transfer fee. Derby saved, they're unlikely to keep me next season in Div 1 hence will be desperate to get me off their hands. Win, win for him, I'd say, but minefield for Derby if he doesn't go immediately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted January 21, 2022 Report Share Posted January 21, 2022 16 minutes ago, BTRFTG said: More interesting are reports in papers today of Jason Knight saying he'd like to stay at Derby despite attracting serious interest from The Premier. Were I in his shoes, knowing if I don't go this window opportunities will still be there in the summer, what's to lose by sitting it out? Club goes bust I'm a free agent and you can have me for a percentage of what you would have spent on a transfer fee. Derby saved, they're unlikely to keep me next season in Div 1 hence will be desperate to get me off their hands. Win, win for him, I'd say, but minefield for Derby if he doesn't go immediately. When does the transfer window close, If its 31st Jan and Derby are gone on 2nd Feb, Does that mean all players that stay can't sign for other clubs until the summer as they can't be registered? Shows the situation the players find themselves in, and to be fair you have to give tons of respect to them and Rooney, they have shown themselves to be a fantastic group Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTRFTG Posted January 21, 2022 Report Share Posted January 21, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Monkeh said: When does the transfer window close, If its 31st Jan and Derby are gone on 2nd Feb, Does that mean all players that stay can't sign for other clubs until the summer as they can't be registered? Shows the situation the players find themselves in, and to be fair you have to give tons of respect to them and Rooney, they have shown themselves to be a fantastic group No, free agents may sign for whoever they wish at any time. That was the point about the 8 who'll be 'celebrated' (sic) this weekend. In their day when clubs folded the administrators retained their registrations to attempt to sell on, though that could take years. No income, can't play elsewhere. That's why they negotiated hard for their registrations plus the monies they took in lieu of contracts. No dream or benevolence on their part and who could blame them? Part Bosman but rules have now changed. Club fails to fulfill your contract and registration reverts to you Edited January 21, 2022 by BTRFTG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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