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Derby Deserve Relegation; Are the Football League going to bungle this one too?


havanatopia
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On 28/05/2021 at 10:55, marmite said:

When is a decision due on this matter, or are the EFL dragging their heels to avoid confrontation?  Absolute disgrace. Teams have to prepare and budget for next season. This should be announced as soon as the play off places are confirmed, i.e, by next week. But my guess is they will bottle it.

The anger amongst us fans and other owners and players is very real and palpable and will not go away.

On 28/05/2021 at 11:05, havanatopia said:

I hope we are all in for a very pleasant surprise. I believe around play off full time and they simply have to make a decision one way or other.

Well I lost hope now.

On 30/05/2021 at 19:02, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yeah agreed with this Hav. Bust the rules, you're not going to be popular and get caught the appropriate punishments must be handed down.

A small conspiracy theory of mine might be that the EFL, could they be looking to drag it out to await a suitable takeover in order to hand down a reduced punishment? Shouldn't be a factor and clear how long the legal process can take with this but Nixon did suggest a couple of weeks back that if Derby get a suitable new owner by August that a points penalty could be reduced.

By which time the season will have started. Derby are going to get royally booed at every fixture. And rightly so. State of governance everywhere now is so infested with corruption and small brain syndrome... Seems more and more that this is by design not error because they simply cannot all be dim wits. But a dim wit is easier to corrupt with a lower moral compass. That's my opinion. I think a lot of us understand education has been on a dumming down crusade for decades and all over the world. 

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4 hours ago, havanatopia said:

The anger amongst us fans and other owners and players is very real and palpable and will not go away.

Well I lost hope now.

By which time the season will have started. Derby are going to get royally booed at every fixture. And rightly so. State of governance everywhere now is so infested with corruption and small brain syndrome... Seems more and more that this is by design not error because they simply cannot all be dim wits. But a dim wit is easier to corrupt with a lower moral compass. That's my opinion. I think a lot of us understand education has been on a dumming down crusade for decades and all over the world. 

Oh I hope so.

Your post reminded me of a little idea I had a while ago but it kinda slipped away.

Fans of clubs, ie the majority should know and be told- that is to say, ideal world vs real world kicks in but in the Programme notes I'd like to see NP and managers of likeminded clubs point out that while those clubs stick within Regulations, there are clubs who do not- and they especially Derby but not exclusively, should be named and explained- NP and SL. Starting point.

Quote

"We as a club do things and operate in the right way, the correct way. However although this is something in which we should take pride, sadly as we all know this is not necessarily universal.

"A good example of a club who do not do things in the same way, are today's opposition. While we sold players, they sold assets. While we carefully monitored Amortisation, they chose a different method.

"As a club, in recent years we have made the difficult decision to authorise the sale of:

"Reid, Bryan, Kelly, Webster, Flint to name 5. These are in the case of the first 4, players who have in moved to Premier League sides with the last one joining a upwardly mobile (at that time) Championship side. Decisions such as these are difficult but are necessary, in order to comply with these Regulations, as indeed we must. The club take pride in this development potential and the fact that we have traded as and when necessary, in the way that the majority do. Today's opponents however, sold Pride Park to a Related company and switched their method of Accounting for Player Costs to improve their short and perhaps medium term position. Plus of course, the Rooney 32Red deal- a deal that some would argue, oversteps the mark in terms of Football and Betting links 

"Get behind the lads, as you always do- and let us give it an extra push today- this is what we are up against at times- as well as the Parachute Payments, clubs who hold the Regulations that Govern us all in contempt and as such we need that extra bit of backing.

You Reds!"

Signed NP/SL

It would certainly add a bit of spice, a bit of needle- booing every time the opposition touch the ball has happened in the past, this would be a good way to get behind home sides vs those who cheat and show contempt for the competition and the Rules of that said competition. It would quite possibly enliven the crowd, a bit more partisan than usual when Derby come to town- hopefully the mindset of fans vs Derby, would be as if it was a local derby. Noisier than usual in support of and nice and hostile atmosphere wise.

Put it on the Official Site a few days before as well, if a Club can get away with it. My suspicion however, is that it would not be permitted- the Official Site bit.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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12 hours ago, havanatopia said:

Parry sitting down with Morris in some Steak House in the West End this evening with a nice bottle of Malbec.

Are we at all surprised? 

I am. A Cabernet Sauvignon would have been a far better choice of wine with a steak. 

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On 05/06/2021 at 04:08, Norn Iron said:

I am. A Cabernet Sauvignon would have been a far better choice of wine with a steak. 

Far too broad a generalisation. The country that gives us some of the best beef cattle in the world also happens to grow some of the best Malbec. Both are like hand and glove and you will find few restaurants of Argentine origin suggesting a somewhat light weight cab sauv over a far more full bodied Malbec. 

Of course it's all about personal preference as well.

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50 minutes ago, havanatopia said:

Far too broad a generalisation. The country that gives us some of the best beef cattle in the world also happens to grow some of the best Malbec. Both are like hand and glove and you will find few restaurants of Argentine origin suggesting a somewhat light weight cab sauv over a far more full bodied Malbec. 

Of course it's all about personal preference as well.

Prefer a Leoville-Barton myself, no relation to Joey

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1 hour ago, where's the joy said:

Prefer a Leoville-Barton myself, no relation to Joey

Wow that's a new name... I shall need to look that up. 👍

Arhhh yess... St Julien.... And good ratings on Vivino but a little pricey. Get what you pay for of course. I shall look out for it next next time I venture to a big supermarche. Appreciate the tip.

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5 hours ago, havanatopia said:

Far too broad a generalisation. The country that gives us some of the best beef cattle in the world also happens to grow some of the best Malbec. Both are like hand and glove and you will find few restaurants of Argentine origin suggesting a somewhat light weight cab sauv over a far more full bodied Malbec. 

Of course it's all about personal preference as well.

What has personal preference got to do with postings on here? :laugh:.

Some of the best beef cattle in the World also comes from the emerald isle but the rest of the argument currently falls flat until global warming kicks in big time. The Glens of Antrim will grow incredible grapes!

Havana, I've been to the home of the Malbec grape which is Cahors in France! Mind you, a Cahors wine tastes nothing like the Argentina version. What's more the Argentinians  produce a superb Cab Sauv available in the Co-Op....or did when I was last on the mainland.

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1 hour ago, Norn Iron said:

What has personal preference got to do with postings on here? :laugh:.

Some of the best beef cattle in the World also comes from the emerald isle but the rest of the argument currently falls flat until global warming kicks in big time. The Glens of Antrim will grow incredible grapes!

Havana, I've been to the home of the Malbec grape which is Cahors in France! Mind you, a Cahors wine tastes nothing like the Argentina version. What's more the Argentinians  produce a superb Cab Sauv available in the Co-Op....or did when I was last on the mainland.

Firstly, apologies to @cidered abroad for the continued digression from the original point of the thread.

I am familiar with Cahors wine, which, incidentally, has improved dramatically in the last twenty years or so - it used to be quite rough back in the 1980s, but improved once the relatively new vineyards became established, but must say I have never tasted an Argentinian Malbec.

You suggest there is a large difference between the two: which is better, in your opinion?

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1 hour ago, cidered abroad said:

Another thread derailed!

“Wineing”  has been a pretty common thread subject this last season, so not sure it counts as derailing!

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1 hour ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Firstly, apologies to @cidered abroad for the continued digression from the original point of the thread.

I am familiar with Cahors wine, which, incidentally, has improved dramatically in the last twenty years or so - it used to be quite rough back in the 1980s, but improved once the relatively new vineyards became established, but must say I have never tasted an Argentinian Malbec.

You suggest there is a large difference between the two: which is better, in your opinion?

I drank it every night for 2 weeks when over in Cahors 20 odd years ago! It was like chalk and cheese compared to Malbec. Cahors was an acquired taste. Full of brambles in flavour but I soon got used to it. We bought Cahors wine via Internet as well when we returned. We had visited a vineyard owned and run by a retired English couple near Montcuq. Good stuff.

Malbec has no issues. Full of fruit and soft, if any, tannins.

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6 minutes ago, Norn Iron said:

I drank it every night for 2 weeks when over in Cahors 20 odd years ago! It was like chalk and cheese compared to Malbec. Cahors was an acquired taste. Full of brambles in flavour but I soon got used to it. We bought Cahors wine via Internet as well when we returned. We had visited a vineyard owned and run by a retired English couple near Montcuq. Good stuff.

Malbec has no issues. Full of fruit and soft, if any, tannins.

Cahors is certainly strong in tannins, but such an earthy taste is a preference of mine when eating beef, whether as a steak or in a goulash type dish, or even with duck.

Nevertheless, I would generally choose a bordelais wine for such dishes and, of course, duck is very popular in the south-west of France - I am sure you ate lots of it when you were in Cahors.

Unfortunately, Argentinian wines and South American wines in general are quite hard to find in France, mainly because they are so heavily taxed and, thus, exhorbitantly expensive (in comparison to their French equivalent).

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9 hours ago, Norn Iron said:

What has personal preference got to do with postings on here? :laugh:.

Some of the best beef cattle in the World also comes from the emerald isle but the rest of the argument currently falls flat until global warming kicks in big time. The Glens of Antrim will grow incredible grapes!

Havana, I've been to the home of the Malbec grape which is Cahors in France! Mind you, a Cahors wine tastes nothing like the Argentina version. What's more the Argentinians  produce a superb Cab Sauv available in the Co-Op....or did when I was last on the mainland.

No I very much understand the origin of Malbec, it's a French word don't you know!! I just much prefer the full body of Argentina.

I always say to myself if I cannot find anything that I know play safe and take a cab sauv.. Chile being a good average.

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7 hours ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Firstly, apologies to @cidered abroad for the continued digression from the original point of the thread.

Well I started the thread Phil and I am perfectly happy with such digression. We all know ultimately it's coming back to Mel Morris and that Steak with Parry in the West End. It's not gonna go down well. 

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I can't understand why Wycombe and their Lawyers aren't all over the EFL about this. A few points deduction for Derby sees them retain Championship football. On that basis they surely have the right to harass the EFL for a prompt decision. 

Whilst I'm not at all surprised that nothing has been heard from the EFL, I'm just amazed that it's been all quiet from the Wycombe lot. 

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I think that there are a few clarifications needed.

Firstly as regards other clubs and lawyers you won't see any court action.  Part of signing up to the EFL is that you agree to exclusively use Arbitration with no recourse to the courts.

Secondly it is not the EFL which punishes clubs, but the Independent Disciplinary Commission.  That has to meet, listen to the evidence and then agree on a punishment.  That punishment is the subject to appeal by either party. 

Thirdly the added complication in Derby's case is that two charges of breaches of the FFP rules were found proven, one (misleading) by default as Derby admitted it and the second (incorrect amortisation) by the League Appeal Panel.  But they were not charged with a breach of the loss limits as a result, as simply put the EFL didn't know. If Derby are now in a breach of the loss limits then they might needed to be charged again, and then the process starts again.

I doubt that there will be a final resolution until much later in the year.

The EFL certainly could have handled matters better and more effectively, but they did actually pin two proven charges on Derby against fierce resistance.

I'm not sure the delay is going to save Derby for anything more than one season.  It would appear that they are still under a transfer embargo, possibly a hard one by now.  That with a potential significant points deduction in the upcoming season is going to make their life very difficult. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Hxj said:

I'm not sure the delay is going to save Derby for anything more than one season.  It would appear that they are still under a transfer embargo, possibly a hard one by now.  That with a potential significant points deduction in the upcoming season is going to make their life very difficult. 

 

I think you're probably right in this respect, to me it shows what a crappy disciplinary system it is though. The fact that Derby will get their comeuppance a season late will be absolutely no consolation to Wycombe who will have been shafted by then anyway. 

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18 hours ago, havanatopia said:

Wow that's a new name... I shall need to look that up. 👍

Arhhh yess... St Julien.... And good ratings on Vivino but a little pricey. Get what you pay for of course. I shall look out for it next next time I venture to a big supermarche. Appreciate the tip.

or try Chateau Palmer if you want to keep the football names in the west country

 

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3 hours ago, Redstart said:

The fact that Derby will get their comeuppance a season late will be absolutely no consolation to Wycombe who will have been shafted by then anyway. 

I have a huge amount of sympathy for Wycombe.  I hope that they will be back.

There is the option of Wycombe asking for Derby to be expelled at the AGM, but I would be really surprised if that was even discussed let alone voted on.

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On 06/06/2021 at 14:16, havanatopia said:

Far too broad a generalisation. The country that gives us some of the best beef cattle in the world also happens to grow some of the best Malbec. Both are like hand and glove and you will find few restaurants of Argentine origin suggesting a somewhat light weight cab sauv over a far more full bodied Malbec. 

Of course it's all about personal preference as well.

Agreed!

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9 hours ago, Hxj said:

I think that there are a few clarifications needed.

Firstly as regards other clubs and lawyers you won't see any court action.  Part of signing up to the EFL is that you agree to exclusively use Arbitration with no recourse to the courts.

Secondly it is not the EFL which punishes clubs, but the Independent Disciplinary Commission.  That has to meet, listen to the evidence and then agree on a punishment.  That punishment is the subject to appeal by either party. 

Thirdly the added complication in Derby's case is that two charges of breaches of the FFP rules were found proven, one (misleading) by default as Derby admitted it and the second (incorrect amortisation) by the League Appeal Panel.  But they were not charged with a breach of the loss limits as a result, as simply put the EFL didn't know. If Derby are now in a breach of the loss limits then they might needed to be charged again, and then the process starts again.

I doubt that there will be a final resolution until much later in the year.

The EFL certainly could have handled matters better and more effectively, but they did actually pin two proven charges on Derby against fierce resistance.

I'm not sure the delay is going to save Derby for anything more than one season.  It would appear that they are still under a transfer embargo, possibly a hard one by now.  That with a potential significant points deduction in the upcoming season is going to make their life very difficult. 

 

Wouldn't know it reading a) Twitter and b) Their forum- not the hard season bit but deduction. Agree with your post btw, though seen it suggested that (don't laugh) to penalise them with points for past periods newly failed under the Straight Line method if it reaches that point, would be immoral! Some would say that their approach since 2018 has been, so what goes around comes around!!

Intriguingly- that's one word for it as it's certainly a long shot- a few of their fans even suggested Adam Armstrong sometime in May on their Transfer window thread...where to begin with that idea!?

Hope MSD show them no clemency either if required- Debt is debt after all.

Would quite like some clubs to raise objections- about Derby and Pearce- at the League AGM. Surprised he's still one of the Elected Reps tbh- brings the League into disrepute!

If Mark Ashton could do one good thing on the way out- could he be theoretically representing us there- maybe it should be to put up some kind of anti Stephen Pearce motion. Would it be too far a stretch to hope he might propose expulsion/suspension for Derby from the League, or at least a refusal to allocate them any fixtures for 2021/22 under current conditions? I'd definitely applaud him if he proposed something to fit their crimes!

They're more objectionable as a club than Wednesday IMO. Aston Villa are more loathsome still.

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14 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Wouldn't know it reading a) Twitter and b) Their forum- not the hard season bit but deduction. Agree with your post btw, though seen it suggested that (don't laugh) to penalise them with points for past periods newly failed under the Straight Line method if it reaches that point, would be immoral! Some would say that their approach since 2018 has been, so what goes around comes around!!

Intriguingly- that's one word for it as it's certainly a long shot- a few of their fans even suggested Adam Armstrong sometime in May on their Transfer window thread...where to begin with that idea!?

Hope MSD show them no clemency either if required- Debt is debt after all.

Would quite like some clubs to raise objections- about Derby and Pearce- at the League AGM. Surprised he's still one of the Elected Reps tbh- brings the League into disrepute!

If Mark Ashton could do one good thing on the way out- could he be theoretically representing us there- maybe it should be to put up some kind of anti Stephen Pearce motion. Would it be too far a stretch to hope he might propose expulsion/suspension for Derby from the League, or at least a refusal to allocate them any fixtures for 2021/22 under current conditions? I'd definitely applaud him if he proposed something to fit their crimes!

They're more objectionable as a club than Wednesday IMO. Aston Villa are more loathsome still.

Let it go, Popodopolous.

Let it go.

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4 hours ago, AnAstonVillafan said:

Let it go, Popodopolous.

Let it go.

The problem is not  Mr P letting it go, but that the EFL look increasingly likely to let it go, as far as Derby is concerned.

What’s the point in having a set of financial rules brought in, to which the majority of clubs adhere ( in most cases to the cost of their competitiveness on the pitch) only for some clubs to chose to ignore those same rules in order to maintain/improve their competitiveness and then, when found out, to be let off the hook by the governing body?

In “Arry’s day it was brown envelopes, now it the title deeds of a club’s stadium.

 

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5 hours ago, AnAstonVillafan said:

Let it go, Popodopolous.

Let it go.

Well yeah. I still wonder about even with the loophole- plus legitimate HS2 compensation- used to date, about compliance. May not be a major breach but I'm all about a simple numbers are right or they aren't/need further analysis.

18 minutes ago, downendcity said:

The problem is not  Mr P letting it go, but that the EFL look increasingly likely to let it go, as far as Derby is concerned.

What’s the point in having a set of financial rules brought in, to which the majority of clubs adhere ( in most cases to the cost of their competitiveness on the pitch) only for some clubs to chose to ignore those same rules in order to maintain/improve their competitiveness and then, when found out, to be let off the hook by the governing body?

In “Arry’s day it was brown envelopes, now it the title deeds of a club’s stadium.

 

Nailed it. Brown envelopes were probably a lot cheaper also.

Derby is still ongoing, I believe both sides have the right of appeal after the IDC hands down the sanction- or lack of!

Based on precedent, League Arbitration Panel bit is fairly binding, IDC can seemingly be appealed. What's happened here is unusual in that IDC handed down innocent verdict, EFL Appealed and won in part in front of the LAP. 

The LAP would have had the power to hand down a Sancton but referred this bit back to the IDC. IDC are the lower body, LAP the higher one.

Both will now make cases/representations to the IDC and I can only assume that any Appeal would be heard by the Upper Body- LAP- and this would be the disposition, the final decision.

Pass the parcel between Independent Disciplinary Commission and League Arbitration Panel though feels fairly unusual.

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20 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Nailed it. Brown envelopes were probably a lot cheaper also.

Derby is still ongoing, I believe both sides have the right of appeal after the IDC hands down the sanction- or lack of!

Based on precedent, League Arbitration Panel bit is fairly binding, IDC can seemingly be appealed. What's happened here is unusual in that IDC handed down innocent verdict, EFL Appealed and won in part in front of the LAP. 

The LAP would have had the power to hand down a Sancton but referred this bit back to the IDC. IDC are the lower body, LAP the higher one.

Both will now make cases/representations to the IDC and I can only assume that any Appeal would be heard by the Upper Body- LAP- and this would be the disposition, the final decision.

Pass the parcel between Independent Disciplinary Commission and League Arbitration Panel though feels fairly unusual.

Just to fill in the gaps.

In the Derby case both parties have the right to appeal any decision of the IDC to the LAP.  The LAP decision is final in all respects.

The problems with the LAP determining the sanction in respect of the 'amortisation' decision are three fold:

  1. Firstly the LAP had no power to impose a penalty in respect of the 'misleading' decision as the actual decision was not before it.  Derby admitted this and the IDC confirmed that decision and it was not under appeal.  So you could have two different panels imposing different penalties in different ways.
  2. A sanction decision by the LAP cannot be appealed.
  3. The 'elephant in the room' being that if the decision of LAP means that Derby fail FFP loss rules then that is the real offence.  In that case that sanction, being a potentially very significant points deduction will become the real sanction and the other two charges will become aggravating factors in arriving at that sanction.

1 &2 are really sensible reasons from a natural justice perspective and third simply reflects the reality of the position.

All in all painful - but they will get there.

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