OwlsonlineAdmin

I worked with Mkowl for several years. 

Do you understand how depreciation works Mr P,  often it is a paper number used to revalue assets yearly, it isn't allowed to be used to work out PCTCT as it becomes an add back. 

An example would be cars, you get a brand new 30k car, the second it leaves the forecourt the value reduces massive, would you say that the 30k car you bought at 11am is suddenly worth 25k at 11.01 cos it shifted a couple of feet? You wouldn't but financially it has. 

As I've said previously, if we are guilty of breaking the rules we deserve all we get but I suspect we sought both legal advice and financial advice before making any, ultimately, paper transaction. Derby's ground, as was ours, was valued by professional, "independent" valuers so they should have a report to explain their uplift from NBV. 

3 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

I agree with your general point, however, there’s every chance that you’ve probably never been to the memorial ground, or experienced what a complete embarrassment they are to our City. 

At least Weds & Utd are both good clubs, as are County & Forest, Liverpool & Everton, City & Utd, etc etc. 

Rovers are a stain on the entire map of the Bristish Isles, let alone Bristol itself. 

 

Went to The Memorial Ground in 2011.

6 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

That's sounds familiar. Maybe we've got more in common with that Gas than we thought. 

Course you have you're two sides of the same coin, let's be reyt two team cities are brilliant, there's about 70 clubs that don't get it, you've more in common with a Gas fan.

Ive loads of Blades mates and friendships going back 30 odd year, hating em on a Saturday and Derby day is fair game but they're still the lads you banter with, there's plenty of other clubs to truly despise, the Gas lads get what Bristol is about, verbally defend it like you lot would. Embrace the rivalry. 

The issue the EFL have is should they go at us, Derby etc they are opening a can of worms by questioning the professionalism of the accountants, who are under stringent review by their governing body and same with the valuers. 

I've 20 years of accountancy experience and know that signing accounts off is something not done lightly, so if they have then it's cos they trust their judgements. The delays and new companies did concern me but I'm absolutely certain that they took advice from people that do this time and again. 

That said if we've done wrong then we deserve any EFL sanction.

49 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Interesting stuff, how long ago was that? Will have to look up on it...football in 1980s did have some significant financial issues though. I thought he saved them from bankruptcy though.

Other clubs had I believe used liquidation prior to this to escape issues. Modern equivalent maybe Leicester gaining promotion in 2002-03, while in the same season they went into administration? Before any points deduction regulations etc.

The second one is quite interesting. I'm not fully sure it counted towards FFP- certainly given FFP is measured on profit (or at our level mainly loss!) before tax, then any profit gained on sale of a tax loss certainly should not!

Is a bit different too, because at that time the regulations allowed for a fine (possibly a hefty one) if promoted, an embargo if not.. and that's it!

No points deductions, demotion from top 2, top 6, probably nothing in the way of projected accounts for the current season either.

I do get the point you're making, that Gibson hasn't always adhered letter and spirit but both numerically and timescale wise there is a definite difference timescale wise!

Example.

Club Sells their ground in May 2018, let's say- or that's when it shows at Land Registry. Done within right reporting period etc, appears in 2017/18 accounts.

Because of the 3 year rolling period thing- it solves issues from 2015/16-2017/18, it provides a cushion in 2018/19 once 2015/16 drops off and provided it isn't blown that season, it helps all the way until the end of 2019/20. Only truly disappears off the calculations in the season commencing 2020/21!!

If it's at true fair market value and consistent with the correct accounting period, then it's acceptable I suppose- but it can't be right!

In 86, he let the club go as it was easier and cheaper to takeover the new entity than be saddled with the debts. 

"On 21 May 1986, the club called in the Provisional Liquidator and shortly afterwards, the club was wound up. In August, Rioch and 29 other non-playing staff were sacked by the Official Receiver and the gates to Ayresome Park were padlocked. Some players left, while others stayed under Rioch and coach Colin Todd. Without the £350,000 capital required for Football League registration, the death of the club was announced on Tyne Tees Television, and it seemed inevitable that the club would fold permanently. However, Steve Gibson, a member of the board at the time, brought together a consortium involving Bulkhaul Limited, ICI, Scottish and Newcastle Breweries and London businessman Henry Moszkowicz. With ten minutes to spare, Middlesbrough F.C. avoided missing the deadline and completed their registration with the Football League for the 1986–87 season with both a change of crest to a circular crest with the lion in the middle and the words "Middlesbrough Football Club 1986" around the circle, and a change of name to Middlesbrough Football and Athletic Club (1986) Ltd. With the gates to Ayresome Park having been closed by the bailiffs, Middlesbrough were forced to play their opening game of the season at Hartlepool United's home ground, Victoria Park"

7 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I also wondered a bit earlier what the precise nature of Gibson's legal action vs the EFL might entail.

Whether for example, it could be not just about the stadium deals but also the projected accounts- or more accurately the apparent failure to factor these in.

Year 1- Real. Year 2- Real, Year 3- Projected by the CLUB. If eg the Year 3 Projections don't include a ground sale- thinking very specifically Sheffield Wednesday and then quite possibly Aston Villa and Derby- well that's a big mismatch right there.

I wonder if this rule and apparent failure to utilise it could be at the heart of his actions here.

The ironic thing is that Gibson has previously allowed the club to be liquidated so he could take over so his morals aren't all that. 

Also weren't there some dodgy intercompany transactions in their accounts that bent the rules a little while ago? 

8 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Gemune question, not having a djg for any reasonable contributors who post on here and support Aston Villa, Derby and Sheffield Wednesday.

IF that fixed asset loophole hadn't been opened up seemingly in error or had been noted sharpish and closed that same season ie before any- and I include Reading- of the stadia sale and leaseback and indeed the other fixed assets applicable what could be done?

I accept Derby sold players so are in a slightly different boat to the others, especially Aston Villa and Sheffield Wednesday, plus their losses seemed borderline but still.

@DerbyFan @OwlsonlineAdmin

Any reasonable Aston Villa fans on here? Quite interested to see 'the plan' in the event of that loophole being shut soon after it opened or better yet not made available in the first place from fans of sides who did it. Mainly Aston Villa abd Sheffield Wednesday though but I also suspect less of Tomori, Mount, Wilson, Jozefzoon. Maybe 2-3 of them?

You won't find me defending the route we went, to enforce FFP clubs should be penalised for failure to comply

However given that the EFL is very unique in how clubs that hit its top division via relegation are rewarded the current system isn't fit for purpose. 

Barely 4 years ago, with the odd exception, clubs could buy players of a decent ability for low to mid 7 figure fees but when Newcastle and Villa dropped their reliance on a quick return saw them decimate the market and blow fees sky high, the choice was either try and compete or just let them go up, come down, go up etc unchallenged. 

Owners want the PL riches, fans want the PL status so you make decisions, right or wrong. 

To make FFP fair then parachute payments aren't counted or owners can match it with equity providing there is proof of funds not payday loans. 

24 clubs, realistically 18, chase that pay day, and most of us are reliant on the whim of an owner. 

Genuine question Mr P,  have you seen Bristol City FCs accounts to Oct 18?

A P&L £120m overdrawn isn't very FFP friendly is it? 

The club has a 60m negative Balance Sheet, by rights you're a massive GC issue.

You can't sell the ground as it is outside the football club assets.... How can you be so pious? 

Location yeah and a proper football ground but it's still a Dive and needs bringing into the 21st century

Away end and Kop do, North and South are quality.

Not anymore ???

Hillsborough is beautiful, better than Pride Park etc

Fair enough. Not blaming SW solely for ticket prices just happened to be the first match so easier example. Just like seeing stadiums look full. All the empty seat are wasted. Maybe could've made U12s free for the first match bring more people in. As I said not SW solely just an example as we've seen it.

I'm not fussed about what we got in to be honest, more home fans than first home fixture last season.

Hopefully winning games will get folk in, that said we charged 10 quid for Reading game last season, only 29k in.

Well regardless of FFP, think a cheaper ticket would've made your stadium look more full while still getting close to the same income. Say 30k at 30 a ticket compared to 39 at 23k. You make slightly more than at 39 per ticket. Of course you can't calculate it that way with season tickets but you get the point. Like I said it's pointless though as its over and even we are going to charge more than 30(which is too much but for now I'm gonna assume around average for this league) in some matches.

We'd all love cheaper tickets mate but our new owner is aiming to try and get more season ticket holders by selling them much cheaper than match day (it was 42 quid for my seat but my ST works out at 20.86).

Hillsboroughs stuck in a time warp, needs bulldozing to be fair.... Shithole

???????

Well there you go. Think you could've been close to that at 25 a ticket and appropriate youth tickets. It's over now though. Just think you guys missed an opportunity at filling your stadium. I would've most likely gone if not for the ticket prices and I'm sure you would've had a few more supporters as well.

Oh well though. Have a good season

Last time we had close to capacity was in 2012 when we got 39k v Wycombe.

23k is good. I just think we all feel it could've been more if the tickets would've been a tenner cheaper. I watched it and it didn't look full so I imagine your capacity is around 30k?

We can't say much though as our aren't much cheaper for our opener. Think 34 but that may not be our cheapest. Point is, football ticket prices in England are appalling. Our 16k(for now) will probably just about sell out no matter the price as it's the first game(and about 12.5k season tickets of I'm not mistaken).

To the game, SW surprised me. I thought they'd be less organized than they were with their new signings. Think you did a fair bit of business early though and seems to have paid off. Wallace and your other winger(can't remember but missed a couple gimmes) were outstanding and will be a nightmare for everyone if they play like that every week. I've watched this group for Bristol City quite a bit last season and we always struggled with one of our wing backs missing. We played a good hour without both. Fredricks needs time to adapt to the role and I hope Bryan isn't out long(naughty challenge by the way) and Little can come back soon. With Bryan and Little out there we are much better both attacking and defensively as they both know when to get forward and when to sit back a bit. Our strikers had no service at all. Don't think it's too fair to judge them harshly. Kodjia needs more time to get some English down and an understanding with Wilbs and Agard. Just think it's too early to judge everyone. Think a good spanking will do us some good. Hopefully show our owner we need to spend a bit more, our manager the holes and what we need to work on and the squad that mistakes will be punished and need to be close to perfect.

Capacity is just shy of 40k.

TBF that is Kodjia's first English league game.

In Cotts we trust to fit him into our style which - last season - was based on exactly the sort of passing game you describe.

It was the same for Joao, who did more in 20 minutes than Kodjia did all the time he was on the pitch.

We haven't had the capacity to seat that number for some time. However that is being addressed.

I was being facetious, but found it funny someone slating 23k.....

My thoughts :

First off fair play to the City fans that made the trip at those prices 1,184 deserve credit, even the two minibus full of lads who tried to be a bit lairy outside the Leppings Lane End.

On to the game, I thought you were unfortunate to lose the lad Bryan as he seemed a threat, he and Freeman looked lively, wasn't impressed with Flint mind, expected more from him.

You seemed to have the possession in the first period without looking remotely threatening, Westwood had one gimme save to make from Wilbraham, we took a bit of time to settle but could and should have been ahead at half time just Matias and Lopez missed gilt edged chances.

Second half we took control and probed, our patience was rewarded with a simple header from a corner that an unmarked Tom Lees nodded home despite the best efforts of Fielding, you lot tried to get back into it with that Burns header that McGugan cleared and barely thirty seconds later Fielding misjudged a teasing Wallace ball that allowed McGugan to tap home, game set and match.

After that we had chances to extend the scoreline particulary the Matias chance after excellent work by Joao and Kieran Lee although you seemed to have claims for a penalty.

On the whole I felt it was comfortable and ended a 11 year wait for a home win over you.

If you cut out the long balls, which were food and drink for our defence and try and play the passing game you have you'll do ok, not sure Kodjia is the answer, he looked a little lost tbh get another striker in and Agard fit.

All the best.

Does for me. Hate the place.

You're entitled to your opinion but the City is nice and we sit on the cusp of a national park, stunning scenery if you ever get the chance to take it in.

Glad some perspective of how difficult this season will be. A lot of people need to calm their expectations and support the team.

Positives

1. Loads of empty seats at Hillsborough / pathetic attendance.

2. Gas lost

23k, let me know when you last had a 23k inside your stadium? There was more home fans there than our opening home fixture last season.