hilltop red

Hands up all those that drive a British car.

British car

please tell me more of this mythical machine?

Quite possibly.

It's not easy trying to back your doomed team on here... But I'll give it my best.

your s h i t ahhhh

Some of you have had a complete humour bypass.

Get a grip people. Anyway we had enough of you crowing when we went down.

"What goes around comes around" and "don't forget where you've come from because one day you might be back"

back too division one we go!

Dagest makes some interesting points, chiefly how we define a "race". Are the English a race or a collection of diverse people from various ethnic origins who live in the land we call England? Also, is there an Englisg culture or are there a variety of cultures and interpretations/expressions of English culture?

English culture is surley both. For example the cornish consider themselves cornish, so this must part of the overall english culture. Culture cannot be one thing. iT has to be a group of tradtions, people ideas etc coming togther. This is what makes the english culture so difficult to define, because the people and customs and language is so divers on such a tiny island.

I posted this link a while back i think, but here it is again.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2076470.stm

Interesting discussion.

As for military defeats. England/Britain not endured any? Please don't make me laugh!

Maybe the American Wars of Independence didn't involve the British after all?

And the loss of Singapore in 1942 was a figment of my imagination?

And...er..I won't bother talking about the humiliating defeats at French hands in the early 1400s, or the victories the Jacobites won over the English in '45?

not going to argue there. My original point was poor and not very well thought out.

Interesting discussion.

As you see my my avatar, I'm something of a fan of Orwell's. His observations on the nature of patriotism and national identity are astute.

So I'm what some of you on here might coinsider a "leftie". Please don't use that as a term of abuse or a convenient word with which to bunch together the politically correct. There is nothing politically correct about me, nor was there about Orwell, or many of the people who served on the "left" of British politics.

This is very goood point. Its like calling the right, racist.

You're quite right I haven't answered the question myself. And my quick answer is that I don't really know who the English are either.

I guess the concept of the nation or nationalism can be split up into various contituent groups. For example, the concept of Englishness can reflect geography, language, culture, history, ethnicity. There are probably others, but I'm too tired to give it that much fault. Anyway, if we take these one at a time, we can determine how important or pertinent they are.

Geopraphy: I guess we kind of established that geography really doesn't amount to much. It doesn't make much sense to say that whoever lives on this lump of land at any given time are the English.

Language: Historians commonly consider the Anglo-Saxon invaders to be the our (England's) direct ancestors. But it is worth mentioning, that these invaders/settlers consisted of three different tribal groups known as the Angles, Saxons and Jutes. As you probably know they were intially invited to this isand by the Romano-British. Anyway, they came here and "settled" with the Romano-British for a few 100 years. They all scrapped around for a while with their little kingdoms until Alfred the Great largely created an English kingdom. Then Vikings came along killed a monks and nuns and eventually settled in large numbers in northern England. Up to this point we can probably say that a recognised English language was in use throughout the land, though Scandinavian (Viking dialects) was also used a great deal and is still reflected in some northern place names. So, the Normans invaded a bit later as you know and imported their own cultural values. They used their own names like Robert, William, Henry etc. All these names were French and were soon copied by the "English". You don't tend to get many Ethelberts around these days do you? As you can guess the language is slightly more mixed up now. This is the case e ver since as well. Modern English is a big mix of original English, French, Latin and a few others. Lastly, if you consider that many people on our little planet are fluent in English now it doesn't really amount to a special feature does it?

History: I'd be here all day. My synopsis above will do.

Culture: The Normans largely replaced the Anglo-Saxon aristocarcy culture by using their own language and artistic tastes as illustrated by Gothic architecture. English culture ever since is really an assimilation of European in the first instance and later world culture. We only have a couple of aspects of distinct Anglo-Saxon culture left in a few place names and a few weekdays like Tuesday and Wednesday.

Ethnicity: As is illustrated above there can be very few people who can trace their genetic line back to the Anglo-Saxons. We really are a genetic mix of Romano-British, Celts, Angles, Saxons, Vikings, French, Dutch, Indians and plenty of others.

I don't know if you agree, but from this it's hard to know what constitutes a special feature of being English.

However, for illustrative purposes I'll tell you about the Ukraine. As you may know the Ukraine is only a new nation. In creating a national identity, the Ukranians have had to read their own history books and work out their own history. In a sense it is a prejudicial exercise with people picking what bits they want to believe and what they think counts.

The point is that the concept of a nation (which is often individual) is often an artificial construction or if you like a human invention. The questions for me are, who really benefits from the conception of a nation? And is it worth investing so much emotional energy in a concept that is often built on such shallow foundations?

Umm, sorry for the lecture, but you asked me what I thought.

A decent answer. I think the notion of belonging to a nation is just the human need to belong to somthing. like supporting a football team. I think you have explained the roots of the nation very well and in simpleton terms that make your point very clear.

But i think England sailed the world and spread its ideas like sports such as football, cricket, rugby and the americans perferred to use are language instead of german, helped spread the language.

This spreading of are culture ment that to the english people that there culture was diluted, not having its own language, car industry or a cause to rally around like independance. The empire probably used to fill this hole but this has know gone and people no longer means what the english are, (the goverments need to try and make us embrace europe is doing further damage and causing stern resistance)which this debate proves.

But we seem to be willing to try anything, how many indian and chinese resturants would you find on the continent, baseball caps and rap music. we seem to be able to meet things head on and try other cultures out with ease.

"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at everything from horse racing to suet pudding. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during God Save the King than of stealing from the poor box."

George Orwell

i see your point about the swastika,

HOWEVER

The BNP are a small political party that aint exactly setting the world alight with their "policies". But the Nazi's are known for their out right racism all over the world. If you go to anywhere else in the world and say who are the BNP, it is likely that they aint likely to have heard of them. the Nazi's are world renouned for their racist views, and they inherrited the swastika. The country of a flag surely cannot be considered racist if it's "taken over" by a minority party in Britain. It aint like the flag has a copyright law against it.

http://www.manwoman.net/swastika/swastika.html

http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swastika/...tikahistory.htm

How odd. You think that a Franco/Norman aristocracy created the English nation. I always thought it was the Franco/Normans whom invaded England and imposed Franco/Norman culture at the expense of English culture.

So, you don't think the English existed before the Norman Invasion? But you said the Romans, Anglo-Saxons and Vikings were English constituents as well.

I think this brings me back to my original point, which I shall repeat for you:

"I don't even think you know who the English are."

you may have posted this before i edited my original post.

"I don't even think you know who the English are."

you have yet to answer this question yourself. Instead of being dismissive of my posts why don't you help me out?

You've almost completely lost me now. Regarding English defeats, I'd suggest the Norman invasion was a bit of hiding wouldn't you?

The normans invaded and unified the english into one nation

William believed he was the rightful heir for the throne. His reign in England may have been brutal, but made england rich and strong

http://www.britannia.com/history/monarchs/mon22.html

Bizarre. So, you think that every ethnic group who has lived on this island over the last 2000 years can be defined as English?

If the Norwegians invaded next week and expelled us all, would they suddenly become the English within a generation?

And how do you explain your earlier comment about us never "suffering a military defeat"?

You got me on a technicality, were are desecndants (sp) of these people.

I said we have never suffered a major military defeat. Please let me know if we have since england became one nation.

And you have yet to offer anything except critisim of other peoples replays.

Naturally, but it does mean it is tarnished by association. The swastika is a similar example. The swastika is over 2000 years old and had associated meanings long before the Nazis came along, but can it be rehabiltiated now? Would you go outside displaying it?

You could also argue that a flag as a representative symbol could have a racist symbolism. For example if you were a native Indian under British rule and were consitently referred to as a "*Racist Term Removed", as they were then you probably be quite entitled to view the Union Jack as a symbol of racism.

I agree with the Rev essentially, as long as you allow the "Right" to monpolise its use then it will de fatco be recognised as a symbol or racial intolerance.

Hilltop Red, I don't even think you know who the English are.

Cider Hider, I think you are quite profoundly confused, with your hotchpotch of Left and Right rhetoric.

England is one of the oldest nations in the world, and it's people are comparised of many diferent settlers and invaders, the romans, anglo saxons, vikings and normans. English people are normally defined as people who were born in England.

If you care to add anything please do, i know who the english are.

The st george needs be more visible in life and not hidden as a dirty secret, this may get rid of some peoples view as it being racist.

Good point Wills!!

Lefties: How come you all fly the flag of a totalitariah dictatorship, which easliy matched the fascists for murderous aggression. To whit the Red Flag, and that Socialist dirge Keep the Red Flag Flying (Personally I only like the City fans version), rather than the flags of the country of your birth?

Why do you hate your own countries so much? Didnt you get laid enough as angst ridden teenagers?? Or could you only pull die hunde??

These same countries (In this case Britain, educate you for nowt, send you to uni for a very fair price (Try paying for all education mate, as they do where I came from), allow you total freedom, and all you do is abuse the state, and in one memorable case on of you Rabble called me and all military and ex military "Baby Killers".

Go on, why DO you hate your country of birth eh, lefties?? Illuminate this poor immigrant boy, because I wanna know? I'm grateful for the chances I've had here, and the lack of racism from 99% of the people, is hugely relevant. You wont find the same conditions any place else.

who said that the englishman was the luckest person in the world? because whoever did was right. Nice safe climate, no nasty snakes or spiders, mostley civilsed people that can adapt quickly to changes in industry. We havn't slaughterd our head of state for ages, respected by most in the world, everybody wants to live here and we should be proud of that. never suffered a major milatry defeat, no independance day because we have always been free. How can anyone be embarresd by being english or want to cover up our flag and history, these people are nutters.