LondonBristolian

I came away from the away game a bit unsure what to think. On the one hand, we narrowly lost to a quality strike and arguably created decent chances. On the other, I'm not sure I believed we'd score and I'm not wholly sure they got out of second or third gear.

As good as a result on Saturday, I think it'll be a tough one assuming Twine and Sykes aren't back as I'm just not sure we'll have the players to create the chances we need. I think it'll tight on paper but I reckon they'll find a way to score and I'm less convinced that we will. Hope I'm wrong but I reckon it'll be 0-2 Saints. 

17 hours ago, JBFC II said:

‘Muppet’ is incredibly harsh.

Has he achieved all he should have with the squad we have? Of course not, but then neither has any England manager since Ramsey. In reality, a Euros final, World Cup semi final and Quarter final (with a loss to France hardly a major disappointment) and a 3rd place finish in the Nations League is about as good as we’ve had for many years.

Is he the best option out there? No. Is the national team in a better place than it has been at any point this century? Yes. Is he a ‘muppet’ who we should get rid of as soon as possible? Of course not

I'd possibly change should to could. 

I'm not sure I'd say we had the best team at any of those three tournaments and I certainly don't think our 2018 or 2022 squads were better than the French teams of those tournaments. Losing to Croatia in 2018 was frustrating but I think any manager we had would have struggled against France in the final that year or in the Quarter Final in 2022. 2021 was the most frustrating in that we just didn't attack enough in the second half against Italy but, as you say, Southgate was the first manager since Ramsey to get us in a final in the first place.

Southgate is frustrating risk-averse in this approach - and I think this year'll be interesting as it'll be the first tournament he's been charge of where you could make a reasonable case that the two best players there will be England players and that we should be considered favourites. I'm not confident we will win it and, if not, I think that'd be the first time Southgate could reasonably be achieved of under-achieving at a tournament.  But - whilst there may well be better options out there - most, if not all, are all untested in international football. There's not a single manager I can think of that I'd confidently predict would get better results than Southgate has. 

2 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

He may be in the Boro squad.

Bloody well hope not or the transfer window went worse than I thought!

For me, beyond Williams' form, the big thing is trying to minimise the non-essential transfer business over the summer so we can focus on getting in an attacking midfielder and key striker, especially if the belief is we'll be losing Conway. Keeping Williams enables us to know our budget and focus it where needed. Even in terms of his wage, paying him a little more might avoid paying a transfer fee for someone else. 

1 hour ago, Beni71 said:

No league win since Dec 26th, two massive games ahead and need a result in at least one of them.

If we go into QPR needing a win, think the board will need to come out and back him.

 

It's a tricky one. I'd argue that most of our results since then have not been terrible in isolation but we've got two tough fixtures coming up that could leave us 8 league games without a win. I think there's mitigation - not just the cup games but the fact that there were only one or two games in that period that we'd be seen us heavy favourites for and Millwall home is the only one where we lost at home to a team you'd expect us to at least be drawing against. But a winless run is bound to sap morale. I don't think Manning will be under pressure after the next two unless we're genuinely abysmal but there's run of games against Wednesday, QPR and Cardiff where we'd be expecting 6 or 7 points from 9 and that's where things could look tricky if there's no sign of improvement. 

It sounds like a lot of the issue here was disorganisation over who had been searched and who hadn't. The reality is drug use is up at games (and, to be honest, I have been to more than one away game this season where coked up ***** are making it less fun for everyone else - although it must be said Southampton away wasn't all that much fun in the first place!) and I've no issue with being searched or examined by a sniffer dog on entry but there isn't any need for the same person to be sniffed by three different dogs. And I do think people on this thread are being a little unfair - I don't mind being searched but I totally get some other people get a bit intimidated or nervous around dogs so I do get why it makes others uncomfortable. 

It'll be interesting to see how we look once Sykes and Twine are back and Mebude is eligible. In theory, we may finally have the options to create chances and stop the striker looking so isolated. Obviously theory and practice are very different things but I think the point those players are available is the point we'll start to get a clear indication of what Liam Manning believes our best formation and line-up to be. My guess is it will be 4-3-3 in the long-run but we will find out...

5 minutes ago, Dan11 said:

I think Leif Davis would inevitably go. He's a Premier League full back in style and quality and will command a big fee. How we got him in L1 I have no idea. The biggest worry of course would be a PL club wanting McKenna which is inevitable at some point.

Financially we've really not invested that heavily at all. We built a squad in L1 under SCMP rules that could compete pretty well in the Championship. Highest fee we've paid under our new owners is £1.5m (Broadhead, Hirst, Taylor) - on 3/4 year contracts for FFP and players that have future resale value. I don't expect Moore is coming cheap in terms of loan fee/wages but that's a signing we had to make in our position. If he makes the kind of impact he did on Saturday then he will be worth every penny!

Cheers - that's useful. FWIW, I honestly don't have any issue with Ipswich at all. What worries me a bit from your perspective is that Ashton's spending approach for us was very high risk (i.e. throw a lot of money at young players in the hope we unearth a gem or get promoted, which worked well at first but then the "gems" dried up and we had a lot of underwhelming players on our books) but obviously he could have learned a lesson. 

2 minutes ago, Dan11 said:

I'm sorry but that is drivel. We had as many errors playing out from the back in that game as we have all season. We are very good at it generally and we've scored far more goals than we've conceded by playing that way.

It was one of those halves on Saturday. We were sloppy and nothing went for us.

I know you guys don't like Ashton but I find the dislike for us a bit odd to be honest. Clubs that aren't in receipt of parachute payments should be united and happy to see another club defying the odds to compete! I certainly would be if the boot was on the other foot.

We've really missed Hirst since Boxing Day (and Morsy has been suspended for 3 games too). Moore is in and up and running now though. After West Brom on Saturday, we have a run of 9 games where you are the best team we play. So that's where we need to make hay. I back us to go close to the top 2. But if we finish in the top 6 it is an amazing season for us regardless. 

I'm asking this genuinely rather than having a dig but do you know where it leaves you financially if you don't go up? From the outside, it looks like you've invested quite heavily. Would key players need to leave to stay in line with FFP or would the squad likely be intact to compete again next season? 

43 minutes ago, Randy Marsh II said:

Even a City XI on ability from the start of his career to now wouldn't see him in there. Shaun Taylor, Caulker, Webster and Flint would probably be ahead of him in the pecking order.

Committed as he was (ignoring the time he went off to Cov and then had to back), I do think it's a bit sad that he was allowed to become the clubs record appearance maker ahead of the clubs number one legend.

Edit - he might have a better chance of being picked in his younger RB role tbf.

Sure - but it would have been a bit petty for the club to deny the appearances too (although, if memory serves, he ended up being extended for one more season than I would have probably kept him on for).

I think the pragmatic reality for most recent club "legends" - especially the ones from the late 90s and early 200s when we were mostly in League One - is the amount of time they spent with us was partly a sign of loyalty and partly a sign that more successful clubs didn't covet their services. 

2 minutes ago, Super said:

Taylor surely wouldn't be in anyone's either? Good player but lots were better.

I think he really captured the imaginations of people of a certain age. I was slightly too young or got into football slightly too late - he left for West Brom not long at all after I became interested in City but I know people a year or two older than me who'd see him as their favourite ever striker. 

No disrespect to Carey but nobody makes a case for him being one of our best ever players, do they? He's rightly acknowledged as our record appearance holder and someone who was a fixture of our side for a long, long time but I don't think many people, if anyone, would have him in their all-time Bristol City XI. 

10 minutes ago, mozo said:

Probably a lot of revenue actually

Bit confused of the relevance here. Nobody has criticised Manning or anyone else for failing to bring revenue into the club. 

11 hours ago, Ryan said:

We are back to being a poor quality relegation threatened team, with a ridiculously inexperienced head coach who no doubt is working tirelessly and doing his best - as did LJ and Holden. We are also back to the policy of collecting players again. This was how it was before Pearson, and is clearly how the owner, his son amd BT want it. It didnt work then, and it won't work now, but for some reason they either cant see it or dont care. 

I think this post needs a little bit of context. We've used (by my count) 19 players this season and have between 23 and 25 senior first team players, depending on if you count HRW and Benarous. Even though we added 6 players in the transfer window, 1 was a permanent signing of someone who was already here, 2 are loaned back out and 1 isn't first team ready. In practice we've gained 2 players and lost 1 player from a squad that has frequently lacked enough fit players to fill the bench. It is true that 3 more signings will come into the squad by the summer but 4 players are out of contract at that point so it remains to be seen whether the new signings add to the number of players in the squad or simply replace those who are going to be leaving. 

There's plenty of utterly valid criticisms to aim at JL, Tinnion and Manning but "collecting players" strikes me as massively inaccurate based on the evidence.

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

As it stands and we can debate the theory….LM is devaluing Conway to the external market and devaluing his use to Bristol City.

The true definition of a shit sandwich.

My theory - which of course be utter nonsense - is there are people in the world who excel through "conscious learning" (i.e. they study how to do things and they then work out how to apply a theory and get better) and there are people who excel through "unconscious learning", and who learn and improve by absorbing information around them and applying it without noticing they are doing so. I think that trying to get someone who learns unconsciously to learn consciously can learn to them over-thinking things and losing the instinct that made them stand out in the first place. My major question with Manning is whether he can adapt to different players learning in different ways, and, with Conway, I feel he's trying to improve someone but ultimately stifling their instinct. 

1 hour ago, Sir Geoff said:

This is my big worry. Mentioned on another thread that TC was having a right old slanging match with TGH. That wasn't borne out of passion but sheer frustration. Several players have regressed in the past 6 weeks or so, others totally isolated in their roles and some being played out of position. All makes for a lot of discontent.

The big worry for me at the moment is I find it easier to list players who I think look worse under Manning than players who look better under him. Obviously there is an extent to which thanks to be expected as players adapt to a new style of football but the whole idea of getting Manning in was getting someone who could get the best out of the players we have.

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That was the thing Nige brought to this club and put into an average bunch of players (in the main).  That was our differentiator, our USP.

And not just better coached, but to another level that beats the gap to the PP clubs.

Not saying it is happening, or it will happen, but it’s possible there becomes a point where for all the refreshing training sessions, results don’t happen on the pitch and players begin to question the methods.

These typically happen between transfer windows, when players begin to think “what’s the point”.

Ismael had it at West Brom.  Intense training sessions, got results early on, everyone happy.  Then results fade, those players not playing start moaning, drags everyone down.  Manager sacked.

We will see whether this group are as “pro” as we’d like to think they are if we continue to struggle a bit.

Conway is one of the bigger worries. The problem is that it is all well and good Manning trying to make him a different  type of striker but, if Conway is doing what Manning wants and then finds he is not getting chances and not getting goals then it would be utterly natural for him to start to question that. And he will be very aware poor performances will limit both his chances of breaking into the Scotland squad ahead of the euros and his options in the summer or when his contract expires.

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

Good post & I think a lot of what you say will happen.

My hunch is Wells will stick around & see out the last year of his deal though. Think he’s settled here & if Conway goes it will be useful to have an experienced, proven back up to whoever we sign as our main CF.

If Knight moves back into a more conventional centre mid role than maybe him, Bird & TGH is enough if we see Murphy as a possible. The lesser spotted Naismith has another year & could play there as well.

If one of the midfielders OoC is going to be offered anything it is almost certainly as you said, going to be Williams.

Re the keepers I’m pretty sure Wiles-Richards is out of contract & I don’t expect he’ll get another. Impossible to know the thinking on Bajic as through no fault of his own he hasn’t played.

You could well be right re Wells. I certainly would be neither surprised or unhappy if he was here next year and, in many ways, it would be better to focus on bringing one forward in and getting the budget for that right.

It's an interesting one re Williams - in a way 4 midfield options plus Naismith is enough but, in another, the squad I listed out still comes to 24 (25 if you count Palmer-Houlden, who @And Its Smith pointed out could well be in contention too. In isolation, I think 8 defenders is enough and I think 4 midfielders plus a defender who can cover is enough but I'm not sure if 12 players across those 6 positions gives us enough cover across the season so I'd still keep Williams, especially as Murphy's development is a bit of an unknown.

15 minutes ago, TomSutton said:

Do wonder whether this team has the potential to lack experience pros.

could possibly see Naismith being moved on too not down to ability but more his availability concerns.

If Naismith was to move on your most experienced players within the squad would be Dickie, Vyner, Williams (if kept on), O Leary and Sykes.

This of course is in terms of age and not games played but having played under different managers and systems can be all the more beneficial to the squad like King is atm, evidenced by how he appears to be always one of the first to greet the new player and take them out socialising with the squad. 

By no means do I think that moving on the likes of Weimann, king, James is the wrong decision but we do not want to end up with a squad solely made up of 20-25 year olds I personally feel.

This might be a good reason why Wells does stay, and it's why I reckon Naismith could too. As you say, Naismith's availability is a concern but less so if there are decent numbers in the squad - plus his availability could also make it harder to get another team to get on his contract so we might end up paying a chunk of his wages even if he departed so I think it is pragmatic to keep him. 

In terms of James and King, for me it's less so about wrong or right so much as what I expect. I rate James and can see what King brings as a presence in the squad but, based on King's partner's comments and the signing of Bird, I just don't reckon either will be here next season. Like you, I don't necessarily think that it's the wrong decision but I'm yet to decide that I think it is the right one either. 

I think it's far too early to write Bell off. We're not getting the best out of him at the moment for sure but there are plenty of players who've struggled at Championship level football at 21 and then it clicked for them a couple of years later. He's struggled this season but I certainly wouldn't say with any certainly that he isn't good enough.

Mehmeti is a tough one. I think he could become a good player in time but the move here hasn't worked and I can see him slipping further down the pecking order as more players come in. As others have said, he could look very different with better decision making but what we have is what we have at the moment and "he'd be a good player if..." doesn't change the fact the if isn't there

All that said, the pragmatic answer is very obvious here. It's a bit daft to start a "get rid of player x" thread two days after the transfer window closes. The reality is we have Mehmeti, Bell and everyone else anyone wants rid of until the summer so the only thing to do is see how they do between now and then and reassess in the summer. 

19 minutes ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

Question: would you as a player walk in to a dressing room and feel motivated by Manning? I haven’t been able to watch one press conference in full, SOD was more engaging! That says it all! I never missed a second of NP pressers.  I go back to Tommy and the player reactions from Manning’s first intro to them, it was very uninspiring. The assistant coach also looks a rabbit in headlights in every photo! He reminds me of that Tony Doc who failed with McInnes. 

Being honest, I’d say it was a mistake to judge how motivational a manager is or isn’t when speaking to players based on how they communicate with the press. How a manager speaks to those outside the club, how a manager speaks to the dressing room as a group and how a manager speaks to players 1:1 are three different skill sets and being good or bad at one does not necessarily mean they will be good or bad at the others. I have no idea how motivational Manning is in a dressing room because I’ve never seen him in a dressing room.

I honestly don't know what I think at the moment. 

I could easily be convinced any of the following three statements is true:

1. The team is still adjusting to what Manning wants and we look particularly poor at the moment as a result. But we've got Twine and Sykes to come back in, plus Mebude and then Murphy, Stokes and Bird to come in the summer. If we get a new forward in too, and Manning gets a full pre-season then we could surprise people next season. Despite the poor performances, there are genuine positive signs and those criticising Manning are going to be feeling a bit silly next season. 

2. We've moved away from the strengths of the team and morale is in danger of collapsing. We'll stay up this season but only because teams are worse than us. We'll lose another key player in the summer and struggle to attract quality within our budget. Despite the odd decent result in the cup, there are major warning signings and those defending Manning are going to be feeling a bit silly next season.

3. Despite the manager change, we are what we always have been. An average mid-table team who'll get the odd streak of wins or losses but never be higher than 8th or lower than 18th. We'll spend the next few months arguing whether the club is doomed or on the verge of a great season only to find it is more of the same next time round.

As I say, I could be convinced that any of the above is true. But I honestly couldn't tell you which of 1 or 2 I think is most likely. 

15 hours ago, Jerseybean said:

Listening to BT got me thinking about next season and who (of our established squad players and newcomers) I see as definitely part of the future.

So here goes, I’m sure this will divide opinion.

Players that I see as being definite ones for the future include:

Max O’Leary

Cam Ping

Rob Dickie

Zak Vyner

George Tanner

Jason Knight

Mark Sykes

Taylor Gardner-Hickman

Tommy Conway

Ross McCorie

Rob Atkinson

+ the new recent recruits

Those that I would happily see depart include:

Anis Memheti

Harry Cornick

All the rest I would be on the fence about that includes:

Nahki Wells

Joe Williams

Matty James

Andy King

Sam Bell

Haydon Roberts

Kal Naismith

My sense is Williams, James and King won’t be offered new contracts, Pring, Conway and maybe Vyner could be tempted by pastures new and move on. Plus a couple of others, perhaps Wells and Naismith depart.

Let the debate commence.

With the players we have secured in the recent window it looks like a new midfield with Murphy, Knight, TGH and Bird being the core.

Depending on outgoings I fancy our defence will remain as is, Max, Cam, Zac, Rob D, Rob A, Ross and George.

It’s been clear for sometime that we need another striker and as BT indicated a 23-24 year old physical and pacey forward would be ideal. Then, again depending on outgoings/incomings, they’d be joined by Conway, Sykes, Bell, Wells, Mebude (if he stays), Twine (if he stays)

My hope is there won’t be that much change in defence and midfield in the summer, bar the business already done.

I agree James and King are off but I think we’d need at least one more midfielder or the squad would be thin and I can see that being a new deal for Williams 

I think it will be hard to keep Conway and I reckon Wells could go if we got two new forwards in. I reckon we could keep everyone else - bar Twine - and I think it would be a good strategy to do so as it would enable the recruitment to focus on the two positions that desperately need it.

I can see our squad next year being:

GKs

1. O’Leary 

2. Poss Bajic if Manning genuinely rates him. 
3. HWR or whoever is next on conveyer belt if HWR isn’t kept on

Defenders 

1. Tanner

2.McCrorie

3.Pring

4.Roberts

5.Naismith

6.Atkinson

7.Dickie

8.Vyner

Midfield:

1.Bird

2.Knight

3.Murphy

4.Williams

5.TGH

Attacking midfielders/Wide forwards

1. Key signing 

2. Stokes

3. Mehmeti

4. Sykes

5. Mebude (if a success)

Forwards

1. Key signing 

2. New back-up or Wells

3. Bell

Moved on:

Conway 

James

King

Cornick

Weimann

Maybe moved on too:

Wells (I rate Wells - this is just a hunch)

Bajic

HWR (only listed as his contract is up and I have no idea where the club feel he is in terms of his development)

14 minutes ago, LoyalRed said:

Whoever this striker is … are we loaning him back ? 

It’s time to come clean. I’m the striker. I’m going to be loaned back to my armchair until 2026. Manning expects me to need a preseason until approximately 2037 to get anywhere approaching match fitness, and even then it is touch and go as I’ll be 55 by then.

To be honest, if the only way we can get the deal done is by agreeing to the loan, then we've still got a deal done ahead of the summer. It's not ideal and I'm sure it's not what the club initially pushed for but it's still good business in my opinion.