LondonBristolian

At least we now know there is at least one player who would benefit from taking the emotion out of his game…

20 hours ago, robin_unreliant said:

What would it take for them to get rid of Manning? If we didn't win another game this season would even that be enough? I fear not.

I might be wrong but I don't think the club will be as patient as many think. 

Don't get me wrong - I certainly think they will try to give Manning every change but I don't think there would be a repeat of the bloody-mindedness when Johnson lost ten on the spot.

I reckon Manning bought himself time with the performance at Ipswich and win against Swansea and I don't see him gone this side of Easter but I reckon he could be gone by the time we play Norwich if we fail to win any of our next five. That said, we are playing fairly inept teams so I suspect he will just about get the results he needs to stay in post but I don't think it is a given. 

14 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Ron - just before he was appointed, when it looked pretty clear he was gonna get it I sat and watched a dozen plus of his post-match interviews, win lose and draw, last season and this.  I feel post match give you a good feel for what they are like.  Pre-match is all a bit of a game, but post-match is different, date I say, you get the “emotion” of the result.

I posted on here that they all sound the same, he gives little away.  What I didn’t hear was him under pressure.  That’s the difference here, he’s in the spotlight and it’s fair to say he’s lost a bit of the cool, calm, samey style I saw at Oxford.

Mike Holden (FoxPunter) was so close to profiling him:

“In any case, Manning is everything the club reportedly wanted”….thats the biggy for me, I think the club wanted one thing, thought they were getting it with Manning, but actually didn’t know what they wanted and therefore didn’t know what they were getting.

It's really hard not to see it as a massive failure of due diligence. 

If I recollect correctly, I feel the club set out the following criteria for a new manager:

1. Be closer to promotion than we were under Peason, which at the moment has to be seen objectively as not a success.

2. Get the best out of players in terms of level of performance, which has to be seen as not a success.

3. Play attacking, expansive front-foot football - again not a success.

4. Continue to bring in and develop young players. Not a success.

5. Continue to play the style of football the club has brought in the players to play. Harder to assess objectively but the impression seems to be Manning wants the team to play in a way that the team are not comfortable with.

6. Reduce injures. Again, that has not happened significantly enough. 

Ultimately I just cannot see that Manning is hitting any of the club's own defined success measures. 

2 hours ago, petehinton said:

Nailed my colour to the Luke Williams flag when Pearson went. 
 

LM - take the emotion out the game, something something behaviour

LW - running down the touchline joining in the pile on for their second goal in the derby yesterday

Sigh. 

I know it was said by someone on here that there was some sort of falling out behind the scenes but, whether that's true or not, the fact the club actually helped develop a genuinely talented young manager who fitted the criteria the club laid out when Pearson went and then couldn't or wouldn't recruit him and went for someone who appears not to fit the criteria at all is frankly a shambles. 

20 hours ago, Harry said:

We keep hearing Liam Nothing (sorry Manning) say how he’s always trying to make sure the players take the emotion out of the game. 
 

I don’t like this approach. Emotion is part of football. Sometimes it can affect you poorly but in my experience it can also have as much of a positive effect than a negative one. 
 

I actually WANT to see my team playing WITH emotion. Not without it. 
 

I’ve really had enough of this bloke. 
 

We also hear him say “at half time we spoke about how we might think about how to engage higher”. 
No no no!! It’s your effing job to TELL them how to engage higher. Not have a polite feckin conversation about it. 
 

Enough. Honestly. 

This has been annoying me for a while. I also think it's symptomatic of a manager whose approach is rooted in theory and following a coaching manual rather than someone who's learned the skills to apply learning flexibly. 

Ultimately the best managers - in any walk of life - are those that treat their teams as individuals and think about the different skills and approaches needed to get the best out of them. I've no doubt there will be players that perform to their best when they take the emotion out of their game and purely focus on the job in hand but I don't in any way think that that's the right approach for every player, or even most players. I think there are a lot of players - Flint is the most obvious recent example that comes to mind - who are at their best when they impose their character and personality on games. If you removed Flint's personality from his game, you essentially got a competent but technically limited centre-back. Add the emotion into the mix and you got a committee leader who could raise his game beyond his natural abilities and get that type of goal scoring return you'd expect from a midfielder or striker, to boot. Similarly, it's hard to imagine Adriano Basso would have been a better goalkeeper without the emotion. And those are just the really heart-on-their-sleeve players. On the flipside, I think Callum O'Dowda probably managed to take the emotion out of his game and I'm not too sure it helped him. 

I'm sure there are players that do need to be told to keep their emotions in check to produce better performances but I don't think it is most players and I don't want to watch a team of robots week in, week out. I think what often happens if you tell people to take emotion out of their game is that your get a flat, underwhelming team that are unable to express themselves. Mind you, in fairness to Manning, if that is what he does want then achieving it is the one metric where he is actually succeeding. 

I'd rather Manning go. Sacking a manager is never nice but I just don't think he is the right person for the club and I feel, the longer in stays in post, the more our progress over the past three years will be undone.

I'm going to be controversial and say that I don't actually want Tinnion out. I think we need an experienced CEO and/or Director of Football above him and I think it is in everyone's interests for him to have someone else to do the bulk of the media pieces for the club but I'd rather his role be configured than him moved on. For all of his flaws, I do think there is a value in having someone inside the club championing and developing the academy in the way he has done and all the evidence to suggests he's someone who was previously doing a good job who has got a bit out of his depth. 

Manning is finally getting his time to work with the players on the training pitch. Once he imparts his tactical magic, we'll be winning every game between now and the end of the season. 

I know this is basically pouring salt in our wounds but we've obviously won whatever the League 1/2 cup is called these days a few times. For that reason, I suspect there are teams in League 1 or 2 that have slightly duller histories but I struggle to think of teams in the Championship who have the same combination of underwhelming history and lack of promotion/relegation drama. That said, worth being careful what we wish for. It's probably more exciting being a League One/Championship Yo-Yo club but I'd rather not go back to it. 

Does anyone know how Araoye is getting on on loan? I was excited by his potential at the start of the season and I am not sure if I was outright wrong, a tad premature or things haven’t quite gone to plan….

2 hours ago, internetjef said:

There’s actually loads on I want to see but but the pyramid does look a bit sparse for my tastes 

LCD , Janelle Monae and probably Little Simz I will watch. Maybe Kiwanuka , maybe Paul Heaton 

hopefully there might be a large scale TBA to sprinkle a bit of magic on one of the days (bit like Foos last year)

 

Without sounding like one of those people, the Pyramid is one of my least favourite stages to actually watch things. I’m actually quite happy there’s plenty of reasons to be elsewhere…

6 hours ago, nebristolred said:

Peggy Gou should be great. Other highlights for me are Idles, Fontaines, The National, Black Pumas, Nia Archives, Justice, Kneecap, Alvays, Bonobo, Honey Dijon. There's enough there for sure - a few expected to be added too like James, Happy Mondays and Busted .

James are a phenomenal live act. Will be really happy if they are confirmed.

3 hours ago, James said:

And this is the problem with people (incorrectly) referring to blocks S25-27 as Section 82. (Not an attack on you @LondonBristolian)

It paints us (S82) in a certain light, which is inaccurate. And prompts these sort of opinions/responses - which I completely understand - and which generally will only have a negative effect on peoples perception of 'us'. As a result of people's actions/words which are often not at all reflective of our views/opinions.

So, for absolute clarity (although others have kindly already pointed out earlier in this thread, and others), Section 82 is a fairly small (<20) group of supporters who have season tickets in the above blocks. We don't speak for "the blocks" we speak for ourselves. And I can assure you that the 'petition', was absolutely not set up by us. And we do not hold ourselves in any higher regard than anyone else, within these blocks - or anywhere else in the ground.

 

On the topic itself, as @phantom has already eloquently stated. The SC&T (and others) are in dialogue with the relevant parties, as to the options which may/may not be available in terms of the expansion of safe standing within AG. 

So those who are of the opinion that a wider area of safe standing (and the perceived improvement in the atmosphere which that may bring) can be comforted in the knowledge that these conversations are taking place.

 

Excellent post. Thanks for your considered response.

5 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said:

Don’t want to turn it into one of those threads, but to me the atmosphere is as good as the performance. Look at West Ham games and Southampton for reference. Matches like Swansea are never going to have an atmosphere due to performance on the pitch.

So to me, it’s irrelevant where they sit.

Also, if you need a drum to create an atmosphere I would give it up completely.

I think the other bit of context for this thread is most clubs have an underwhelming home atmosphere in comparison to what people ideally want it to be. I think people remember how the atmosphere felt when they first went as a kid, or during a particular game, and imagine that is what all games are like but it really isn’t.

Granted, Leeds fans have really impressed me and Millwall are decent if slightly over-rated but there are a lot of teams - QPR, Forest, Southampton and (especially) Fulham whose atmospheres have felt pretty underwhelming when I have visited. I get that our atmosphere could be improved but I don’t think an objective observer would see it as anywhere near as bad as some of our fans perceive it to be.

4 minutes ago, Wedontplayinblue said:

Think that is a harsh on the lads who are within section82 and not the whole standing area, I highly doubt they would view themselves as that. 

Ah, sorry - to be clear, I certainly wasn’t talking about everyone in Section 82. Just specifically how a petition to effectively kick season ticket holders out of their seats comes across…

1 hour ago, EmersonsKev said:

The arrogance and contempt certain sections of our fan base has towards other supporters shows no bounds!

 

"I want to sit somewhere else, so people who already sit there can move for me!"

 

The only workable option in my view is to split the Atyeo and have home fans in the corner next to the Dolman with the minimum amount of tickets made available to away fans.

I think there is a valid point here. I’d like more people to sing and there to be more of an atmosphere but there is an underlying tone of “we in Section 82 are the REAL supporters and all the other season ticket holders matter less than us”, which I find a little ugly.

Not my dream line up for sure but plenty there I’ll enjoy. LCD Soundsystem and Yard Act are both great live, as were Dexys when I saw them in about 2011. I’m looking forward to Declan McKenna and Paul Heaton and really keen to see Peggy Gou.

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Would that be signed off by the relevant bodies and how long would it take?

Agree in principle a whole standing end or the top half /2/3 minimum would be desirable. However are there limits, what considerations etc.

All 'Safe Standing' areas need sign off from the relevant bodies.

Secondly, I don't know if it still holds but at one point unreserved meant the risk of a 10% capacity reduction in said area.

Multiple searches suggest unreserved still=<10% as recently as 2022-23. Maybe it's changed since who knows.

The major change over the past two seasons has been all seating being reserved at away matches. I don’t know for sure and may be wrong on this but I’m not convinced clubs above a certain level are allowed unreserved allocations at all now. 

Tinnion has accepted a senior role at the club and put himself forward for press and media appearances as part of that. Ultimately that is going to result in points where he gets the credit (often deserved over recent years in his previous roles) but, if he wants to get his share of the credit, he also needs to accept his share of the flak when things go wrong.

I don't want to get into some of the speculation and comments about his personality and character because I know nothing about those and it would be unfair to comment. In terms of his actual ability in the role, I think there are two areas where I slightly disagree with the consensus:

1) I don't think he's manifestly unqualified for the job - a Technical Director/DoF is NOT a manager and, when you look at who does those roles at major clubs, it's not necessary or relevant to have been a successful coach to do it. Promoting someone with several years backroom experience to the role - in and of itself - makes sense. That said we have a specific issue with the fact that most or all of the key figures at the club lack significant experience elsewhere so I'm not sure who supports someone promoted to a new role to learn.

2) I don't necessarily feel certain he's the wrong person for the long-term, although I think there is a need to get some more experience elsewhere in the structure to make it work, and he also needs to be able to acknowledge and learn from mistakes made in recent months. I think at the moment it is clear his role is not working and will not work unless changes are made. Of course, he might be outright unsuitable for the role but I don't feel certain on that. 

What I do think though is:

1) It is utterly valid to criticise his performance over recent months and he's in a role where it is fair enough that he is subject to fan scrutiny. I'm not personally a big fan of the personal attacks but there may be posters who are more informed than me on some of those and feel more qualified to discuss his character.

2) The club need to accept that he, JL and Manning are all poor at communicating to fans and, if there is nobody in the structure who communicates with fans well, PR disasters are going to be more likely and there will be greater scrutiny of mistakes. 

Very sad news but, as @MarcusXsays, it is good she had her children with her at the time of her passing. Condolences and thoughts to the whole family.

I think Arsenal are a poor comparison if the aim is to point out flaws in the club’s approach.

They appointed an ex player as Technical Director and then got rid of an experienced manager who had done well elsewhere to replace him with someone with coaching qualifications and back room experience but without comparable first team managerial experience. The fans did not take immediately but ultimately he won them over.

Arsenal may well be Mario to our Wario but ultimately they are an example our board and technical director could point to and say justifies their decision making and belief that Manning will prove us all wrong.

I don’t agree with that but trying to use Arsenal as evidence of our board’s fallacies feels like a mistake as they could just as easily be used to justify the board’s thinking.

3 minutes ago, 42nite said:

So , it's all our eggs in one basket this season.

All in for the Youth Cup big time!

If we lose...we've won FA!

That counts as a failure doesn't it?

Who's head will be on the block then?

 

 

Ephraim Yeboah's. 

12 hours ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

It saddens me to hear talk of giving Manning money in the summer, but what is even more depressing is that it'll be for "one or two" signings ...

There's absolutely no way in living hell Manning has the talent to turn this squad into a top6 outfit with only 2 signings.

That's not going to get bums on seats is it Brian ... IS IT BRIAN. 

In fairness, much as I'd criticise much of Tinnion's interview, I do actually agree with that bit. I think we desperately need an attacking midfielder and a striker and, as those are both expensive positions, I'd rather we focused the budget on getting quality in in rather than spread it thinly and spend less on the 2 positions we need the most. There's obviously a question about depth in terms of goalkeepers but I genuinely think, if fit, then our defenders, centre-backs and midfielders - especially with Bird to come in - should be good enough at this level. If anything, I was actually reassured that we weren't going for yet another major squad overhaul. 

Obviously the elephant in the room is the bit in bold. I think the right manager could make our squad competitive with 2 quality signings. i am very far from convinced that Manning is the right manager. 

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

Slightly wrong Timothy. Lots of people on here have been talking about us not filling the bench and suggesting we could use academy to do so for experience if nothing else - indeed, I remember a poster saying it was good Twine was on the bench vs QPR for integration and the point was made that it would be equally good for an academy product to be so.

You’re also missing knock on effect. If you’re holding U18s in the U18s it means the U21s have to be held in that age group, meaning you can’t give experience to the U21s. I’m not an Omar Taylor-Clark fan for example but would his development have been better had Meerholz played up to the higher age and then OTC go into the first team group (I’d argue undoubtedly)

I’d also disagree that holding a team together in the U18s is good for development- take Medube. Looked shit hot for Man City under 18s but both in Belgium and here seems lacking for the men’s game. The fact is that all 11 of the U18s aren’t going to make it so you push the ones that will into higher ages to advance development. If you don’t you can hold the better ones back.

Finally, the point I think it’s fair to make is that if Liam Manning is being told he can’t have U18s (and by extension the U21s) because they’re needed for those fixtures it’s manifestly unfair on him. I’ve raised concerns about his use of youth - he may want to, he may not want to, but cutting off his legs from doing so is an entirely different matter.

I think the other thing to say is that it just adds to the contradictions. For example, it's been widely reported that Pearson was criticised for playing King instead of an academy player and now we're being told the plan was never to play the academy players. 

12 hours ago, REDOXO said:

Injuries effected Liam….FFS and they didnt Pearson?

Everything that was said at that time is now seen to be what it was utter bullshit!

Peasrson had 7 U18U21os in the squad at Cardiff….But hey poor old Liam!

Agggghhhh!

To be fair, no self-respecting Technical Director would tolerate a manager jeopardising the club’s chances in the Youth Cup in such a cavalier fashion…

8 hours ago, Simon bristol said:

Do you not want the under 18s to win the youth cup? Id quite like to see that personally.