LondonBristolian

Bottom line is tonight has happened. The score line's not nice but it's over and results elsewhere mean - goal difference aside - we've pretty much emerged unscathed in terms of the table. We can sit and analyse what went wrong - I'm sure fans on here will and the team will too - but what really matters is how the team respond. LJ needs to make sure the team get it out their system, draw a line under it and don't let it undo our good work over the last month. If he can do that, we'll be fine and tonight will be forgotten.

6 minutes ago, YorkshireSection said:

 

Not at all, I finished last season on a massive high, with expectations to match. 

Im not happy that we messed up the summer transfer window, brought in a manager with no championship experience and we haven't got a striker, if we keep aiming low we will get there.

i want my club to be successful and to do that you need to seize your opportunities as they are few and far between, I'm not delighted that were better than 3 other teams at the moment, I don't need to get a grip, I'm just sick of seeing the same old cheap options being made.

this season has been bollocks both on and off it, we should stay up (?) but I don't see the decisions being made by the board at the moment as progressive, if SC can't attract players to Bristol then I have little hope that LJ will have much luck either.

i thought we'd finish about 15th, and build let's see but as I said before, I'm sick of seeing the cheap option made, especially on a 3.5 year contract.

Sorry for not having the same outlook as you but leave the get a grip bit out.

The cheap option wasn't made though. Whether LJ proved to be the right option or not, the simple fact is getting a manager under contract from another club who, though a division below, are of a comparative size to us, paying compensation and increasing his wages isn't the cheap option.  You're entitled to your opinion, which I happen to disagree with, but it seems a bit daft to back it up with assertions that are factually and demonstrably untrue.

19 minutes ago, Griffin said:

These pillars suit a average League 1 side not a Championship team who's ambition is the Premiership.

I completely disagree. I can see no reason why community engagement, good facilities and stadium, youth development, financial sustainability and buying players who will appreciate in value are League One specific concepts and am genuinely baffled as to who anyone would think they were. I'd be really interested if you elaborated on this as, on the face of it, your post makes no sense whatsoever. 

I don't think the five pillars ever went away - they're all things the club are trying to do behind the scenes.  To be honest - dislike of management speak aside - I've always been a bit confused by what the issues are with the five pillars.  Firstly I've had enough experience of supporting a club without a plan and I'd argue the absence of one from 2008 - 2013 explains why we went from the verge of the play-offs with a hungry young tight squad to relegated with a bloated squad of poor players on expensive contracts.  So I think a plan is a good thing.

Secondly I don't really see the issue with the five pillars.  Effectively all it is is the club saying the following five things are important to them:

1. Community Engagement and promoting "health, social inclusion, participation and education" via the Community Trust.
2. Investing in the academy and youth development to bring young players through.
3. Aiming to sign young players with potential who'll increase in value and having a database of potential talent so we have good ideas for future targets in all positions.
4. Financial control and prudence
5. Building a new stadium and investing in training facilities.

Personally I have no problem with any of those.

1. I want the club to be giving something back to the community.

2. I don't think I've ever met a Bristol City fan who doesn't want the club to have a good youth system.  It's great that Bryan has become an established player and, whether or not the likes of Burns, Vyner, Reid, O'Leary, Morrell and Wollacott become first-team regulars, it's great we have players in with a chance.

3. Our recruitment has gone wrong but I'd say that's because we've got away from having a good list of potential targets, not because the plan is a bad one.

4. I know financial control splits fans who want us to be more ambitious but I don't want us to be where Bolton or Portsmouth are, or where we have been in the past.

5. Surely having decent facilities and a comparable stadium capacity to other teams in the Championship is vital if we want to compete.

As far as I can see, whilst it's not yet translated to success on the pitch, the club following the five pillars has led to a rebuilt stadium, a Category B youth system with 3 youth recruits playing for the club this season and 3 more on the bench and a thriving community trust that's doing good things in the community.  I'd be really interested to know what it is about the principles of the five pillars that makes so many of the fans find them inherently terrible. 

4 hours ago, havanatopia said:

That is what banter is all about; respectfully countering or agreeing with another view; you kinda lose my interest in how you started off. Anyway we move on... Always a risk you are right taking stats from one site as gospel.

However you do keep harping on about his international attributes which have never been in dispute here; the guy has done a fabulous job. Although my argument of him never managing at club level was wrong i still stand by him not being suitable because its in a totally different era, its in a different country and its with teams i doubt would be good enough in our 4th Division. 

And if you read back through your posts you also define his league experience as relevant and later say its not the point. So i will assume your later position that its not which means you think he is a good candidate based on his international experience. Fair enough but i disagree.

First off, to be clear, I don't think he's a good candidate.  I think he's a completely unviable candidate because he's about to retire and, if he was looking for a new job, he'd quite rightly think he could do a lot better than a second tier club in England.   It just rankled with me that anyone would be so dismissive of the qualities of someone who has proven himself on stages far larger than Ashton Gate.

Secondly, of course 9 years of experience 30 years ago would be meaningless on its own but this is in the context of someone who moved from that experience to the international stage and has been in constant employment since.  I imagine Alan Sugar hasn't had direct experience as a salesman since the early 80s but, given he's only not worked in sales because he's worked himself into a higher position elsewhere, it'd be silly to use that as a reason why he wouldn't be suitable for a job as a salesman.

I don't necessarily think Lagerback is likely to come to Ashton Gate any time soon, and nor do I think it would necessarily be good for him or the club.  I just think your post was overly-dismissive of someone who deserves a lot more respect.

More generally - and this isn't particularly directed at you - I find it incredible how many people on here are so choosy and so dismissive about so many candidates.  Before my time as a City fan, the club appointed a 34 year old who had played 33 games in the top flight, 55 games in Division Three and then spent 5 years as an assistant manager in the second and third divisions.  Such a candidate would be derided today but Alan Dicks stayed for 13 years and took us into the top flight.  Our most successful manager since then had managed the Latvian national football team and a conference and League Two team prior to coming to us.  Meanwhile, of the two biggest names to be appointed in my time as a City fan, one spent a fortune but couldn't get us out of League One and the other stormed off after two matches.  I've no idea why so many people on here persist with the idea that past success is the best indicator of future success when there's so much first-hand evidence suggesting this is not the case. 

12 minutes ago, havanatopia said:

 I took my stat facts from www.transfermarkt.co.uk which only shows national teams he has managed; unless you wish to add on his time with Kilafors 33 years ago where he presided over zero matches. I am sure you are not so be happy to see where your stats came from. 

Transfermarkt lists his time with Kilafors from 1977 to 1983 (most profiles suggest he actually left in 1982) but leaves out two later spells managing Arbrå BK from 1983 to 1985 and from Hudiksvalls ABK from 1987 to 1989. Check any bio of him (the one on Uefa.com is an example and so too are the below from the bbc and the telegraph) and these spells are listed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/africa/8540420.stm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/nigeria/7767678/Lars-Lagerback-Nigeria-coach-at-World-Cup-2010.html

Even going with transfermarkt though, think for a second. They list him being there from 77 to 83. Do you really think he managed a football team for 5 or 6 years and didn't take charge of a single game? And, for that matter, then became Swedish u-21 manager and don't manage a single game there either? Or is it perhaps more logical to conclude transfermarkt does not actually stats from the Swedish lower leagues prior to the invention of the internet?

As for actual stats for how Lageback got on in those roles, I do not have those any more than transfemarkt do. All I can tell you is he was at his first club for five years so one presumes they weren't anxious to sack him, and he must have done enough in the two subsequent roles in order to get offered a job with the national set-up so I guess he did okay.

But how he did back then wasn't my point and nor is the fact that he has managed the likes of Henrik Larsson and Zlatan Ibrahimovic and has most recently taken a country with three quarters the population of Bristol to their first ever European Championship and the brink of a World Cup. My point was merely that it is inaccurate to say he has never managed at club level based on one stats site when this is contradicted multiple times elsewhere.

5 minutes ago, Kingswood Robin said:

Just saw Micky Mellon on TV and thought I'd have a look at his managerial record. He has a win ratio of over 50% from 319 games, albeit in the lower half of the league. 

Indeed.  I'd have thought he might be the kind of manager that the board are looking at and certainly I think we could do far worse.

8 hours ago, havanatopia said:

Calling one ignorant is a silly and condescending choice of words regardless of argument but set against the inconvenient truth, for you, that the man has no league experience whatsoever is perhaps the real definition of that very word. By copy and pasting my remarks you are responding to me directly yet you choose to state the obvious of his record, start with fool and then finish it off with ignorant and within your same context.

P.s. Nobody disputes his 'vast' experience but that is not the point.

In this case your 'inconvenient truth' is actually an 'inconvenient factual inaccuracy'. Not to let facts get in the way of a good rant but he's got 9 years of league experience over 12 year with three different clubs.  I apologise for calling you ignorant but, in this particular case, you do have your facts wrong.

On 1/17/2016 at 15:17, havanatopia said:

You have mentioned this fella Lagerback, I don't know maybe 45 times over the past 12 months, so for once you deserve some sort of riposte.. the guy has only ever managed at national team level so has no experience, whatsoever, of club football. That does not mean he would be a failure but he sounds a scarier version of Benny if you ask me so, in short, he is way too risky as much as you obviously have shares in him. His PPG is not bad but not revolutionary given its relatively few games and, again, international matches only.

Sorry bud... he will not be managing our club anytime soon if ever.

Name in home country:	Lars Edvin Lagerbäck
Date of birth:	Jul 16, 1948
Place of birth:	Katrineholm
Age:	67
Nationality:	Sweden
ø term as coach:	4,73 Years
Points per match as manager:	1,52
Success rate as coach:	43,8 % Wins 21,1 % Draw 35,2 % Losses
Preferred formation:	4-4-2

To be honest, anyone who would turn down Lars Lagerback is a fool.  Massively experienced and respected manager who did well with Sweden has worked miracles with Iceland.  However firstly I'm sure he could do better than a Championship club, secondly I don't think he's going to turn his back on a final European Championship this Summer and thirdly it's a completely moot point as he's already announced his attention to retire.  However the fact that there are fans on here dismissing him just shows fans' ignorance of global football.

1 minute ago, Redtone said:

I like it in the old third division, we are good at that one  

 

Anyway I still don't think we are going down. Always one club that falls like a stone like one that will sneak into the playoffs. 

I'm not backing us to sneak into the playoffs on this evidence...

I'd obviously go for Moyes if he said yes.but don't believe he would.  Of more realistic options, I'd be happy with Garry Monk or Di Matteo.  Or indeed Chris Powell.  In terms of leftfield options that are showing up on the bookies' lists, I'm a bit intrigued by Jaap Stam and wonder if the board should interview him and see if they like what he has to say.  Pearson'd be interesting but it'd basically be signing the closest thing we could find to a carbon copy of Cotterill and it'd make me wonder about the logic of replacing him in the first place. 

I'm massively against Warnock for one reason alone, which is that I'm aware he doesn't sign or play young players for the future because he only wants players who'll make him look good in the short-term rather than building clubs for the long-term.  I also think we need someone who's more of a head coach than a conventional control-all manager.

1 minute ago, Red Right Hand said:

Cotts has obviously taken notice of everyone and has used a sub early for once.

Giving youth a chance too.  Hurrah!

7 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

I thought Kodjia was miles onside. We don't need a change, Cotts needs to change. Reid Burns need to be starting. Fingers crossed our new signings help us survive. 

A few weeks ago I'd have agreed.  But Cotts isn't going to change.  If he's not going to pick Reid and Burns when we've two games in 48 hours, not going to pick them for the next match after a 4-0 defeat and only going to bring one on 8 mins from time when we've not had a shot on target and one with 1 minute to go when we're a goal don. we have to accept he isn't going to pick them. 

There's no point in counting on suddenly Cotterill becoming a person he isn't.  The club have to decide whether we make to do with the manger he is or whether to change.  And they have to decide now whilst there's till time in the transfer window to make the change.  To my mind, there's ten days until our next league game and only one decision that can be made. 

5 minutes ago, samo II said:

I get called away for the final 4 minutes including injury time, and return to find we've conceded late once more, costing us anything from the game.

Worrying thing is; I wasn't really that shocked - similar happened against Charlton, and we seemed to be more in that game.

I didn't expect anything here, so not going to change my stance that we need to give SC significant support in the transfer market immediately, and not sack him, as I simply think we don't have the playing resources to compete (I'll be honest; I expected us to take a worse beating today).

But we cannot hesitate; forget value for money, forget buying for the future - we need players to come in and immediately improve this squad, and our position means the only way this happens is with serious investment.

We either do that now, or in May it looks very likely we'll have gone right back to square one, because anyone decent will be sold, and all we'll have is a decent stadium and League One football.

The thing is I can forgive a poor performance and I can forgive players not being good enough.  What I can't forgive is playing the same system and same players week on week even though it's not working and then refusing to make substitutions even when you have players who are clearly fatigued (as last Saturday), losing (as on Monday), or had no shots on target (as today).  Or bringing players in on loan and refusing to play them.  Ultimately when things aren't working you have to try something different.  And, as you say, we desperately need players.  But didn't SL say quite recently SC hadn't even approached him to suggest potential targets?   If SC has got ideas for players we need that are likely to want to come here, are likely to make a difference and are going to enable us to vary the way we play a bit then fantastic.  But, at the moment, Cotterill seems bereft of ideas and the team seem bereft of fight. And much as we need players, I actually think the problem runs deeper than anything one or two singings are going to fix...

1 minute ago, OddBallJim said:

I think today was a prime chance to try something new. Shame.

Apart from anything else, I think it's proved to everyone else in the squad - Reid, Burns, Little etc. - that no mater what they do, the manager is not going to give them a chance.  And it proves to everyone in the team that, no matter how abject they are, they'll continue to get picked unless we sign anyone.  Not really much of a motivator is it?

For me, Cotts is taking a big gamble using the same line-up after 1 win in 13 games.  Especially with this being our 3rd game in 8 days, and how bad we were Monday, you'd think we'd have to try something to see if we can get a different result - whether that's a different shape, playing Reid or Burns or whatever.  It might not work but we know that it's not working with the players we've got. Surely there's a point where you have to try something?

I seriously hope Cotterill and the team prove me wrong but another poor performance and another heavy defeat and surely that HAS to be the final straw?

For me, the failure to make subs is the final straw. If we're playing like we are, and the manager isn't even prepared to take risks that might improve things even when there's nothing to lose, there really is nothing else to say. I don't want us in league one next season and that's where Cotts is taking us.

I think the worst thing is the crushing inevitability.  The transfer window can't open quickly enough...

Not really. I think Walsall were quite hard done by to lose by two goals. They dominated possession for parts of the game

 Completely disagree.  We were utterly comfortable throughout.  At times we let Walsall have the ball in areas where they couldn't hurt us but, a slight wobble mid-way through the first half aside, there wasn't a single moment where I thought Walsall might score and I reckon our players had more than enough in the tank to respond if Walsall had got a goal from someone.

I thought it was a thoroughly professional performance.  What also really struck me, from sitting right up at the top of the stadium and looking down on the action from above, is how fluid our formation is.  At different points of the game we were be 3 - 5 - 2, 5 - 3 - 2, 3-2-4-1, 4 - 4 - 2 and 4 - 3 - 1 - 2 and it made it pretty much impossible for Walsall to pick players up or know where they'd be.  Seeing the team in a big stadium with a quality pitch just emphasised how good they actually are.

Equally, the Orient game was the only one which Cotterill has bettered the result achieved by SOD... Sean didn't get the pleasure of playing Stevenage. 

I don't disagree that it is a bit sad, but he doesn't help himself at all (Neither did SOD, who said things that would only piss some people off) and as Harry said earlier in this thread, the soundbites and interviews (Written and spoken) are the only way we can gauge a managers personality. I know that many will be like me and find unwarranted arrogance a major turn off with regard to liking a manager's personality. There's nothing worse than hearing that kind of self-adulation when quite frankly his performance at this club and the two previous clubs he has been at have resulted in vast mocking from their supporters and an unpopular legacy. 

 

I just wanna be clear with this, I wasn't at all enthused by his appointment, but I have actually liked some of what I've heard from Cotterill. However, judging him at this point there is nothing I would argue that he is 'succeeding' at. His transfer activity has been abysmal, his coaching has had no effect (If anything many aspects of the team have looked to be going backwards, under SOD it was individual errors that were costing us games having played well as a unit for the majority of games. Under Cotterill we're getting torn apart much more and defensively are an absolute shambles.) and tactically he still doesn't have the foggiest idea what his best team is. If we ignore SOD comparisons, personality and reputations from before (Which I admittedly have not done much) Cotterill is failing miserably here already and does not appear to be a good fit for BCFC at all.

I utterly agree with this.  These debates seem to inevitably collapse into SOD vs Cotterill and that muddies the water so I don't want to go down the road but Cotterill has not impressed me at all and has shown absolutely nothing that suggests to me he can find a way to lift the club and improve our fortunes.  I completely agree with how bad the transfer activity and coaching seems to be.

We've had the slight improvement of fortunes that clubs tend to get for a few games when they get a new manager but, now that has passed, there is not very much left.

What Steve Cotterill means is that he is a winner but he's having to manage and coach a team of losers. The BCFC team were a team of losers last season and they're a team of losers this season. No point blaming the current BCFC manager.

There comes a point though, where the manager has to start doing something about that and I just don't think he is.  Obviously it's not SC's fault we're in the position we are but I'm increasingly convinced he's not the man who's going to save us from it.  When he was appointed, I genuinely wanted to give him a chance but bizarre team selections, players being dropped for no particular reason, perseverance with formations that don't work  and a general lack of ideas are extremely concerning.  I'm not normally the first in the 'sack the manager' queue - I was all in favour of giving Johnson, Millen, McInnes and O'Driscoll time to prove themselves (in some cases perhaps wrongly) butI honestly think that the sooner this arrogant, clueless no-mark gets out of our club, the better it'll be all round.

Warnock should've come in at the time of Cott's appointment. My opinion on that is unequivocal. But now Cotts is here I think we need to stick until Xmas, whether we are league one or otherwise.

No point sacking now in my opinion. I think we are going down, we look like going, and deserve to go. There is no one out there I believe can save us between now and the end, and no-one who I'd appoint long-term. So why pay him off?

To get someone who can rebuild us over the summer.  I know full well that was the plan with SOD last season and it didn't work but it was the wrong manager rather than the wrong plan.

 

 

Initially Cotts seemed to be improving things, better results and better football, it all went tits-up when the board allowed him to rubbish our stated transfer policy and bring in El Bad on a 3.5 year contract - that's exactly the sort of thing that landed us in the mire before!

Initially McInnes, Millen and SOD all seemed to be improving things too.

Think you'll find he confirmed he was

He confirmed he would have been if an opportunity had come up at the right time in the past.  He's said several times that he does not want to manage now.  Our fans just choose to ignore that repeatedly.

Cotterill may not be the answer, but really I think El-Abd and W Elliott are no worse or better than Shorey and Harewood.

 

I think both managers have made mistakes in their own way, but I don't think there was some golden age under the past manager. We're now in the same place he left us, no better, no worse.

 

Anyway, they clearly won't sack Cotterill this season. So, move Osborne centrally and bring back Moloney?  Rest JET and start Burns?

 

There are options, but we have to take them as this line-up clearly isn't working. 

Fair point.

I didn't mean to suggest SOD was in any way a golden age.  The results were awful for the most part and, as I said, he didn't seem to motivate the squad.  What I do think is he brought in a group of players in order to play a certain way and, if we'd got a manger in to build on that, we'd be be in a better position than bringing in a manager who seems to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

There were, of course, several things that needed to be improved from the SOD era but I'm just not convinced Cotterill is improving them.