Alessandro

Positive for me is us changing shape. Been wanting us to do it for weeks - let’s see if he persists with it. Think we can cause teams a lot of trouble with the overlapping, rotating, switching flanks etc as we did today - 2 banks of 3: Weimann Wells Semenyo(Conway) James Naismith Scott EDIT - also Vyner and the spirit shown in the second half.

Game on and on top!

Look like its started 4-4-2 is now more 4-3-3 yeah

Change of shape? 4-4-2 Naismith CM

Awful first half. Pretty pathetic stuff. Felt like watching us against a premier league team in the cup, such was the gulf in class. Swansea schooling us in not only how to press, but how to break the press. Our only hope was looking long and for set pieces, all of which were wasted with poor quality. We had a few strings of passes but few and far between. An absolute stinker from Atkinson - the worst of several stray passes all over the pitch which suggest a complete lack of confidence in the team, worryingly. Without making excuses, when we did get in the area, we've had two very strong pen shouts - for Semenyo - if the defender did get the ball, it was the slightest touch, whilst still going through the back on Semenyo. The Atkinson one he was 100% clipped. Getting nothing from the ref as usual. Only positive - Vyner - outstanding half reading, blocking and intercepting. Continuing to develop really well as a player.

I don't think anyone is still celebrating it, but the reality is, in my 30 odd years supporting City, it's up there as one of the best nights. But does that mean my hopes and expectations for the club are any lower than yours, absolutely not. Do I think we've underachieved in my lifetime, absolutely yes.

I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you - I just see it a different way in terms of % of blame and the whole ‘that’s football’ and it’s the same with virtually every club and manager. Totally agree r.e the split in the camp - most polarising manager in recent history - for many he was doomed to fail before he started. I think though there are more camps than just he was 1) poor or 2) f terrible! For me he came in when we were on worse results/performance trajectory than we are now - took us: 1: out the relegation fight and to safety 2: had us progressing year on year for 2/3 years, often in the top 10 and at times top 6 even top 2. 3: gave us something fantastic performances/away days and cup runs. 4: put in a lot of ground work off the pitch. Ultimately yes he didn’t have to quality to get us over the line and stayed a year too long playing his part in the financial mess that came towards the end. Fine. But I’m not rewriting history to say it was all shit and everyone looks back at it as poor or terrible - if you do IMO you’re blinkered by not liking the man.

Pearson did come in under Ashton. They worked together for at least a few months before Ashton jumped ship.

Of course, all managers are the same, they want upgrades. But yeah, the very best managers get upgrades AND the best out of players. But you've got to remember, you can't get blood out of a stone... Either way - I just can't look back at LJ and be angry and say that was a period where nothing good happened, end of. Regardless of if you liked him or not, he was a man who respected the club and put his 110% into finding the edges that might have helped us punch above our weight in one of the toughest divisions in the world. Whatever "City transfer records" money was spent, it was never in the top 6, 4, 2 bracket. If you want to hold transfers over LJ, i'm sorry, but for me you blame more the CEO and the owner. They do the money. He can ask, but they say yes or no. In football, nothing is certain, sometimes you take a punt on a manager and you have to give time and loyalty. SL put his faith and loyalty in LJ (and MA) - if you think that was wrong, blame SL. If you think LJ had too many players, or was here too long, that's not LJ's fault. And yes, we are in the shit financially - but that was the risk SL and MA took, the gamble didn't pay off (and for us to get out the division, we will have to gamble)- so if it doesn't work you tighten, re-group and go again. Nearly every club is the same.

That wasn't the discussion but anyway while what you write is mostly 'correct' - I think we all know it's oversimplifying the situation a bit. We've done the money and transfers to death (money spent vs money received/Ashton/agents/SL etc etc) - I'm not denying his blame, but I can also step back and acknowledge: a) it's a share of blame - SL, MA also take blame IMO for transfers and strategies. b) Yes we are financially in the shit, but that is not LJ's fault. MA and SL signed on the dotted lines. They pushed the budgets. They knew the FFP implications. They appointed Holden who set us back further. IMO on the whole LJ had us fighting at the right end of the table but my biggest criticism was he should have gone sooner and the scattergun transfer policy that bloated the squad and ended up with us losing our way on the pitch - again, as more info comes to light over transfers, that is something MA and SL have questions to answer perhaps more so than LJ.

@italian dave - Having watched City go up and down the 2nd/3rd tier a few times and the odd Windscreens shield success - in my 30 odd years of supporting City - the league cup run and specifically the win vs. Man Utd was (sadly) a top 1 or 2 lifetime highlight. Probably the only time I’ve cried at a City match. You can draw positives and negatives from most managers’ times here - but frankly if you’re a pathetic fan so blinded by hatred of the manager that you couldn’t enjoy that night, one of the best in our recent history, you’ve got to feel very sorry for them and ask, why bother?

A slow start to the half seeing us affording them way too much space on the ball, losing most the midfield battle and it's another classic soft AF goal. You fear the worst. But you cannot fault the response - pretty much one way City traffic and the equaliser more than deserved. The Coventry fan's boos at half time telling you how one sided it ended. Now to kick on and get the winner. Suspect an open and possibly hectic second half.

I think the club will be looking to avoid sacking Nige at all costs. As I said before - I think we're currently hanging on for Jan, where selling will fund some buying to sure things up. I think that's our only play right now as our options are so limited financially. Survival is the only target and we've lost the luxury of holding on to our best players. FWIW - however there are some 'but's' with all that: - I think the squad is still underachieving at present. Questions over tactics/set ups. - Performances are on a continued downward curve - bottom 5 form. - We're starting to see more cracks in NP's facade which is usually not a good sign. Does he have the fight if all the blame/anger turns on him? Will he be a SL scapegoat? - Questions for me over the team around NP. We know previous success for NP were built with coaches he no longer has around him. So although I don't think they want to pull the trigger, things are not good at all and relegation simply isn't an option. But they'll be looking at the league table and luckily for NP there are currently 6 teams below us and 4 are in worse form, for now.

I think it’s much easier to ‘buy’ your way out of league one - and MA has had plenty of backing at Ipswich. Proof in the pudding will be in the Championship - average wage in championship is nearly triple league one - big step up financially.

"Harrods" - not quite true. Simply put, yes, we spent 'the most' we've ever spent on players and wages. Paid for, in part, with 'the most' we've ever received in transfer sales. The reality is though, in comparison to other top teams, what we spent and what we paid in wages was only ever really of the level we achieved - a play off push. What underpinned the ultimate failure of the strategy was the money we earned/spent was virtually completely wasted. The quality of recruitment just wasn't there, a plan simply wasn't there. Quantity of quality - a squad flooded with 'mediocre' championship players. Because we couldn't afford the wages of the top upcoming players, we took the easy route of shopping at the 'next best available' level and over paid for it - that's what has burdened the squad and tied NP's hand's behind his back. What we should have been doing was working harder to find the gems, the diamonds in the rough, but the club wanted to fast track yet couldn't really afford to do that - and we had a manager and CEO incapable of making the squad a better sum of it's parts.

I'm on the fence over Pearson, despite my concerns. For me the reasons to keep him just about outweigh the gamble on finding a replacement. Without making excuses or pointing to specific tactical mistakes he's made.... I genuinely think he's been a bit unlucky with defensive injuries and has had one hand tied behind his back with an already thin squad. Not sure what is happening with Atkinson, but a fit Kalas, Naismith and Atkinson all season, we're not in a relegation fight IMO. Add in the injuries to James for a period and Kane, Tanner and Sykes - the last 3 which frankly I said at the start of the season we are putting too much pressure/expectation on to step up to championship levels anyway. For what it's worth - due to the position we find ourselves in, my prediction is we will sell Semenyo in Jan, probably not for the massive fee we all hope, something like £6-8m and invest in 2 or 3 players to sure things up and the second half of the season will see us chip away till we're safely mid-table.

For me it's a case of getting our best players into the starting 11. Seems criminal a 20 goal a season striker last season gets played deeper, but the reality is we're not suffering from a lack of goals. We're top 6 in goals scored. The 'problem' is Wells, Conway and Semenyo are all at a higher level than Sykes and Tanner, so Weimann, Mr Team-Player, gets moved to try and help solve the problems the other end of the pitch.

Early Christmas present for Stoke as we go back to our league one defending again. Utterly soft goals against a team that offered little else. You can complain about the ref or Stoke's antics but the bottom line is we threw the game away today. Giving away pathetic goals needs to stop and needs to stop yesterday. I hope Atkinson and Kalas are back soon.

I’ve been saying since the summer I think people have overestimated the depth and quality of this squad - but we can’t click a finger and change that, perhaps not for sometime and as @Davefevs said it may get worse before it gets better. So we’ve got to focus on what we can change, if you think we need to change. We all know the reasons we are where we are and that brings a level of goodwill - the questions you have to ask: Is Nigel Pearson and his team taking us in the right direction, longer term? Are you willing to, worse case, accept relegation in order to instil that culture while we don’t have the quality we need, can develop or can afford? It’s much harder to ask, can someone get more from this team? Hypothetical, who knows. So that’s why I prefer the above two questions. I’m on the fence about this still - I guess it depends how realistic you think a relegation scrap is and mentally I’ve been considering it for longer than it feels the majority of others have on here. Although I appreciated a few wins would help massively, it’s that tight this season. But that argument works both ways and we’re trending sharply downwards in form and levels. Eitherway NP needs wins soon and I think, ala Cotterill, “if” we cross that dreaded line, I can see them pulling the plug.

Yeah, so those games in hand in the championship - not going particularly well for us…only one team below us currently have worse form, Wigan. 2 from the drop. 5 from bottom. Levels continue to drop - Time to look down.

I understand playing devil’s advocate - but in this case you basically saying, well I could have won the lottery if I bought a ticket. It’s a very different situation now to then, we were in full trying to fast track and buy promotion mode - but reality is we know deep down it’s highly unlikely, nay most likely simply didn’t happen, that the pathway was blocked for some mythical young player the calibre of Scott or Conway, that we could/should have had more opportunities under LJ. Cream rises to the top and no one can really name one player who has shot on since, despite being ‘held back’ by LJ. Morrell no. Vyner, not particularly. We are simply producing more players now that we will sell upwards more often vs that period when we were producing one player capable of that every 2, 3 years. The transfer policy is another conversation we’ve all done to death!! But I just simply don’t buy the argument LJ particularly held back youngsters, because they weren’t there in the numbers they are now. Those who were good enough, he played - Kelly. And he gave plenty of debuts to likes of Semenyo and Moore. And finally I’d say, for all the criticism of LJ and MA - the players we are producing now didn’t simply appear out of nowhere over last 1 or 2 years - the foundations were being put in place during that period. Scott for example signed under their ‘watch’. That’s not me saying they take credit or are responsible - but we are seeing the fruits of work they started/were involved in, if we like it or not. @David Brent- yep I’d say that’s put to bed ?

How many youth players can you name that came through academy during LJ’s tenure that you believe he didn’t give any/many chances - who’ve gone on to prove him wrong elsewhere, out of interest? EDIT - sorry someone else has already asked you and yeah, as suspected, not one name. I can name Burns, Morrell, Akinde, Rory Holden, McCaulsky, De Girolimo off top of head of the kind of equivalent quality - incomparable to the quality we’re developing now.

Well it’s nice to be leading despite being second best after that Sheffield Utd game. An eyebrow raising choice of Weimann and Semenyo as wingbacks, can only presume late illness or injuries have forced NP into that….yet it’s Weimann who gets the opening goal. Not sure how they’ve not scored TBH, with some school boy defending, wasteful possession and dubious positioning, Vyner particularly guilty of being sucked out of position - MOL with several excellent saves, Boro wasteful a number of times and the post saving us when last ditch defending doesn’t. Despite that we’ve looked a threat on the break (Conway pick of the forwards, Nakhi wasteful a few times) we need to try and control the ball a bit more however second half, the midfield battle being lost. Feels like more goals in this one, but we need to sort out our defensive organisation or you feel we will eventually concede.

Fair enough, I’d like to see it again to be honest. I think whenever I see a pen shout I try and think, “how would I feel if it was given against us?” In this case, maybe a little hard done by - yeah there’s contact and it’s clumsy from the defender but first view thought it was 50/50 on pushing and shoving and then Wells looked for it a bit? As I said though I’ve seen them given and we don’t seem to be getting rub of green on these types of decisions….

One man's cynical is another's streetwise. All part of the game and they did it well last night, getting away with most of it.