Alessandro

I was talking about this on another thread today - it’s considered to be ‘fact’ Tinnion is THE academy man. He seems to get the majority of plaudits for our youth set up, but the question is…is that fair?? The fact is - he’s wasn’t head of the academy until 2021 - when the last crop of academy boys had made their first team debuts - Scott, Conway and Bell etc. The plaudits there should be going to Gary Probert, academy manager for 9 years - who left to go to….Ipswich…. Semenyo, Scott, Conway, Bell, Vyner, Max, Pring, Kelly, Bryan, Bobby… all pre- Tinnion as manager of the academy. We also know the pathway has been a success in recent years, but that was ironically largely due to FFP blunder transfer restrictions and NP having to blood so many. Before 2021 he was part of the scouting team and he was the loan manager (remember NP’s comment on that) - but credit to him for his part in finding some of these players. We are yet to see what ‘his’ crop of 2021 onwards boys can do at first level, the supply has seemingly slowed. Perhaps in part because they are chasing FA youth cup glory? Now we have more room with the cash, you could argue the Jan signings he made have played a part in blocking the pathway. Interestingly in my research for all this - you get the sense for some years the club have been grooming Tinnion for this role. In all the articles about the success of the academy or signings of youngsters like Scott etc - there is Tinnion “loan manager” in the picture with the player and sometimes Probert. And it’s often Tinnion who is the one doing to media on the academy, despite him being “loan manager” or “pathway manager” - not Probert as head of the academy in the limelight, but Tinnion put forward. Hence why I think the perception is what it is and why I think he may be getting more credit than he’s due… Sorry if people think I’m being harsh on Tinnion - if anyone with a better knowledge of the academy can refute my analysis - I’m happy to stand corrected.

That post was in response to another that brought up the academy. And with respect, this is a public forum -all relevant discussion is allowed - there are no rules that say other things can’t be discussed in a thread - just ask the pun producers. If you don’t want to discuss one part of thread, just skim over it.

Can you reference any of those interviews, any links? Just I've never seen them... "pivotal" - debatable. I've not mentioned his ability to express himself, so that's irrelevant to this discussion. He was one of a group that scouted players for the academy - in that role i'm happy for him to continue. Ironically, one could argue we're yet to see the product of his time as academy manager on the pitch - as the number of first team debuts have dried up - time will tell on that one too.

Yep all good to have opinions - but facts also help. The fact is our current crop of first team academy players (including recently departed Scott and Semenyo) were under the stewardship of Gary Probert as academy manager. Talking of Alex Scott (as you mentioned premier league players earlier), he wasn't discovered or coached by BT - Scott was already in the first team when BT became academy manager in October 21. Same goes for Conway (1st team debut mid 21) and Bell (early 22) in reality. Yes BT has played a big role in scouting and bringing in youth players, Semenyo for example, and we give him credit for that and he can continue in that role no problem. But that's only the very start of the process - back to Scott again - my opinion this time - i'd give far more credit to the lad himself, his family, the city youth coaches, the England youth coaches, NP and his coaches, and Phil Alexander or even SL for the sale - than I would BT in any of the process. That's not me saying he doesn't get any credit, but keep it in perspective.

Yes well done Brian, you are one cog in a big machine. I think the vast majority have given and do give him credit for his part in that process - but I also think some want to give him more credit than he might actually be due, in that process. And I also think the vast majority of fans also believe that, regardless, all of that doesn't add up to justify the promotion into the position he is now in at the club.

You do realise that when a player comes through our academy and is sold on, that is down to numerous individuals within the club, not just being 'nursed' by Brian Tinnion, right?

So £60m for WBA - Have a made up the figure of £200m SL wants for City? Was that reported or is it rumours??

I was saying this 3 or 4 years in the Ashton days! Look at the setup of a club like Brentford, Brighton, Bournemouth, Villa etc. They have structures like this before you get to the head coach etc: CEO Director of Football Technical director or COO Head of Academy Head of recruitment Financial director Commercial director Obviously each club differs and some roles overlap - but we basically have 2 or 3 people doing the roles of sometimes 5,6,7 people at other clubs. Step one move Tinnion sideways to Head of Academy and Pathway. Then employ, as a minimum, a Head of Football and a new head of recruitment. Both with relevant premier league or champ experience, not some project person. Set your budget - then JL and SL step back big time, stay out the dressing room. Stay out the weekly meetings.

I said a couple of months back it's always felt like when the club talk about the academy and pathway: The emphasis is on producing players to sell to the premier league... and therefore to take all the plaudits and say ooh look we sold X for ££££££££ aren't we good - rather than Producing players to build a squad to get Bristol City to the premier league... This stuff about coming out about the FA youth cup kind of proves that doesn't it.

15 seconds in - "it's a squad that should be at the top end of the division" This interview's not aged well at all: "we're clear now in how we want to play and be, a front foot team. We want to be aggressive, we want to play forward, we've got pace in the team" "The next head coach has to develop this team into the way we want to play as a football club...it's going to be a long term thing for the football club" "You'll see a lot of young players coming through the academy into the team" "we've got a squad that's built to play the way we want to play" R.E ironic injury quotes - "you have to make sure players a trained a certain way to play the way we want to play...'we've' fall short a little bit on that" - "when they're ready we want them back fit and to stay fit"

His very few 'supporters' can say it wasn't that bad (damning with faint praise) and that whatever he said we'd pick up on: Yes, no shit sherlock - If you're the technical director of a championship football club, at least be over the basic details and get them right - He's given us 2 or 3 statements that are either bare-faced lies or incompetently incorrect - neither answer is good. And then he's topped it off with some gem's like - I've been here 30 years I deserve this position, Manning is learning on the job, we want to be 10 points better off next year and disclosing disclosed transfer fees. All whilst insulting the fan base as if we'd all just get behind them all will be fine. An awful appearance from SL's worst (both times, can't make it up ) appointment.

This is why it’s hard to guess this time - comparisons with LJ not the same, as he was fully invested emotionally and financially - perhaps that was his last throw of the dice. If he is looking to sell - value is everything and it seems he’s also looking for minimum investment from himself…AKA “Sustainability” He said what football earns, football spends - but we’ve not seen much of that Semenyo/Scott money yet - and there will be more in the summer - will we invest it? If the taps are limited this summer, fans will get restless. So he absolutely needs to have a head coach/manager getting the team playing better than the sum of its parts - at the moment Manning is no where near doing that.

You may well be right…but I’m not so sure that’s the case with Manning - have a feeling he’s BT and JL’s pick so wouldn’t be surprised to see Steve step in on this time. Either way him going next week or later this year (if he doesn’t markedly and quickly improve) - there will be no ‘good’ way out on this one for the Lansdown’s - and they’ll know the reality is the longer he stays, the longer and more expensive it will be to put it right…which may dictate things more this time round and they may save more face by acting quicker on it.

Sorry if it’s been said elsewhere…if it was on the players and Pat the other night when we conceded from a free kick… Presume it’s credit to Pat that we won today? Given it was his short corner routine that was calmly executed by the players? Thank you for the 3 points Pat Mountain!

Agree entirely - surprised how many people presume he’s now safe after that 1 win. For me there is still debt to his name, one win has paid some of his overdraft, but he’s far from the black. Didn’t see much of the game today, but have read it wasn’t great and I saw the empty seats you talk of..money talks… 2 loses in the next two with similar showings up to now and as you say he’ll be in big danger of going.

Absolutely - you can talk about interpretation of what he said, as @ExiledAjax is on the other side of the coin. But for me, it's vague - if you have a specific point, make it. It felt to me it was a half-hearted attempt to explain (absolve blame) conceding from a freekick vs Ipswich. But that phrase he used is really not good. Even if those defending manning are right, I still disagree with what he said: set up, freekicks etc, the manager can affect things - yes the players need to know roles and adapt to changes in game but: Take the freekick example - the players will be focussed on one thing in the heat of the moment and jostling - "winning their duel". The manager has the responsibility to see the bigger the picture - perhaps a player's set up to make a late far post run, for example, that is unexpected. Even if it's time sensitive or hard to get message to players - that's your job! You can't expect the players to take all the responsibility to see "the whole picture" when they've also got to mark a player who is pushing and shoving you to get into position. That's what they should be focussing on. EDIT - I don't mind his interview manner, I actually quite like him, I imagine he's thoughtful and supportive of the players off the field. Yes I was a fan of Nige and he had the opposite style in many ways. But for me - if the message is good and the quality is there, I don't mind how it's delivered. My question is not Manning as a personality, it's Manning as a coach.

The words don't match the reality for me. He keeps talking about us going in the right direction? The only thing I can think he is referring to is this ethos that he repeats time and again that clearly runs through his whole coaching philosophy - that is to equip the players with the skills to do it on the pitch themselves and take responsibility. Hence a lot of talk of players; didn't implement the plan, let emotions get in their way and when they cross the white line he (Manning) can't affect things. One on one player meetings. Giving them the tools. etc etc etc So perhaps when he talks about making progress, I can only presume he means in terms of the players accepting this way of working and reproducing it on the pitch? I don't mind some elements of this man management to an extent - but my god, sorry, the best coaches in the world facilitate their players in ways beyond just preparation and set up. That's a crazy comment about in game influence. Manning is putting a hell of a lot faith in his processes and the players ability and willingness to make it a success. He's basically all in on it with little flexibility or ideas beyond the players "producing" his imaginary, ideal plan - if they can't, what does he have in his locker next? Very little it seems so far. Must win on Sunday or concerning times...

The way I describe last night was like a boxing match. We were a weight division below, but came out positive and swinging - landing some good blows. Ahead on points. But instead of being ready for the inevitable comeback from our superior opponent and looking to box clever - we kept looking for the knock out blow, left ourselves wide open, and got knocked out. So you can say, oh well done, we’ve had a go and showed some spirit and looked good at times, but we still got knocked out. It was naive. Against lesser opponents it might work, but ultimately again we seem unable to play the right game for the right opponent. Interestingly though - I’ve got a question - if I and plenty others can see that, did Manning: A) Not see that and froze in the headlights again, failing to adapt to the game situation again. or B) See it and think, no we stay the course, regardless of result? I suppose what I’m asking is, did anyone else have the feeling Manning is now playing ‘his way’ almost like he’s been told he has a free pass - “just go out and play your game” from above or is he being stubborn to show, “this is how I play, take it or leave it and back me in the summer if you want us to close that gap”? Because surely he can see what us layman can, right?

We’ve done well in large parts of that game. Our 2 goals, from very direct play. But I’m sorry - you cannot say Manning is without fault tonight. Yes it’s 3 bits of poor defending - but: I thought we were just too naive tonight. It could have been 4 or 5 in the end. You don’t concede that many goals (in such a short period) if the set up and instructions are good. We were under the cosh, Ipswich coming at us and he doesn’t make one change to try and help the defenders out in response to their multiple attacking subs - they just sit and watch us concede 3 goals and a penalty with no response from the bench. Maybe Roberts to double up Burns who tore Pring apart to start with. The players looked lost defensively and crumbled there at the end - and when so many do in one go, you have to question the manager too. Shame because we really could have won that tonight and we wouldn’t be having this chat.

Low bar I admit, but he’s done his job off the ball, on the whole, yes one stray ball I can think of, but 3 or 4 others at least guilty of that. Supported his LB more. Carried the ball and pressed better IMO.

Well in terms of being away to the team in 2nd - a very good first half. Matched them, pressed well, been brave in possession, Manning gone to 4 at the back, good energy levels. Defensively strong, Vyner and Dickie great. Much, much improved. Less good - still looking rather toothless up top, very little to shout about, better from Mehmeti, not sure about Knight up front (other than what he does off the ball) We’ve got to be careful, looked master of our own downfall with careless possession that has almost cost us a few times. Feel if we keep doing so, they will punish us. And finally will McKenna have an answer to us tactically, surely Ipswich will have a tweak at half time and improve? Can Manning do the same?? Or can we do to Ipswich what others have been doing to us and nick a goal for an unlikely win?! COYR

Excellent post and the fact that this similar thing keeps happening over and again at the club - suggests something about the Lansdown’s. I read a quote recently from SL, can’t remember exactly what it was, but something like: ”we’ve created a direct line of communication from owner to manager” or something on those lines - and that’s the rub for me: He can’t have people of experience and talent in those roles of JL and BT because frankly no one good would put up with the meddling. Hence the pile up of bodies fired or people jumping ship - Burt, Cotterill, Ashton, Gould, Alexander, Pearson in not many years. We may not hear from SL anymore, but his fingers are all over the current set up and situation IMO. There’s the other view the Lansdowns want the glory and they want to own it themselves. Hence why they’ll experiment with bringing in their ‘own men’ and running the show themselves, but then when they’re in a mess, go back to basics and get someone with experience in to fix it. When we’re back on an even keel, they go back to the ego move of saying “we can do this ourselves again now”, but they can’t and we get in a mess again. What next?

I agree it’s very unlikely we’ll go down, there’s a lot of teams between us and the bottom 3, despite what the points say. But I do see us getting within 3 or 4 points of it and from there if we’re in a tail spin, we don’t know how the players and management will react under the pressure and that could see us getting dragged mighty close for comfort, maybe even in as soon as 3 or 4 games time as it’s a tough little block of 4 coming up.

If these rumours are true - you can see why Tinnion went for him - big enough ego to stroke and he’ll toe the line to keep ‘ITK’. However, Brian, it’s turning into another bad appointment for you mate - he’s not as talented as you hoped and is crumbling under pressure!

Yes noticed that - low blow considering you’re not there to defend. Maybe I’ll have a listen on Wednesday