Piccolo

True. A better example would be the 1,340 Bristol City brought on a Saturday afternoon in February 2020 whilst 7th in the Championship.

I would argue our home attendances are very healthy. Six matches have already been a sell-out for home fans this season, despite us until last few games really struggling. Furthermore, you have to take in account Millwall play a tube ride away from West Ham, Arsenal, Chelsea and Fulham. A bus ride from Crystal Palace and a good walk from Charlton. I would say that if you took the populations of all the areas considered ‘Millwall areas’, such as Bermondsey, New Cross etc, you are looking at c.200,000 people. Therefore average home support of 12-15,000 home fans is very good percentage wise, especially when you consider our complete lack of success and the transient nature of an inner London population too. For example, if the people of Leeds supported their one club in the same % of the population, they’d be getting c60,000 to games, even when they were in League One (they in fact dropped down to 16-18,000 at one point). Again, it is all about how you look at these things. How many do you think Bristol City would average if you played out their league history playing a few tube stops away from Arsenal, West Ham & Chelsea?

Around 16/17th I believe. We try to get in the right characters.

Mate, I didn’t. I concisely used facts to counter your opinion is all. But I often find people get all defensive and prickly when that happens these days.

To be fair to us (Millwall), we have been a top half Championship side in all but one of the last six seasons, and top nine in four of those. And I can see us finishing top 12 again this season too.

That is a bit unfair, as I think we executed our plan perfectly. Edwards has got us playing counter attack football and that is what we did today.

Okay. I was just pointing out that I was right is all.

Bristol City brought 1,122 to The Den last season for a fixture just before Christmas and that obviously included London & SE based fans. So I don’t think I am talking non sense when I suggest that you’d take a similar percentage of home fans (from Bristol) to us for a New Years Day match costing £35

Good. But £100 plus quid to watch us at a very familiar ground still isn’t gonna entice more than the hardcore on New Years Day, after Christmas and at the height of a cost of living crisis. As said, nearly 8% of STHs bothering is still pretty respectable imo. Would more than 1,100 Bristolians bother coming to The Den direct from Bristol today (ie not London/SE based), whilst near bottom of table?

Yeah, I didn’t say no women and children watch us away, just that it will be a lower % than any other club due to the crap we have to put up with from locals and local police forces. Also my cousin sent me this… so who knows… not sure why he’d lie?!

Yep. As said, over £100 for an adult to simply come by train (if lucky) and watch us today. That’s without eating or drinking anything. I love Bristol, great city, my sister lives there too, but I’ll be saving the money thanks!

It goes up and down, depending on who we are playing. I have been at 16,500 ‘sell-outs’ v West Ham. It was interesting to compare away followings that went to Millwall and Charlton when in same division. The two are 4 miles apart, with The Den actually easier to get to, but the same club took double the fans to the Valley nearly in every example.

To be fair, all but two home games at The Den have sold out for home fans this season. We can only hold 15,500 home fans due to poor design of The Den. If clubs travelled to us in the numbers they do to other London clubs we’d be averaging 19,000 odd (or whatever the Met now let us); 20,000 if we were allowed all seats to be used, which we aren’t.

Depends how you look at it. Compared to big, regional clubs like Leeds United, Sheffield Wednesday and Norwich City, no we don’t. But as a ratio of home support, our numbers are pretty decent in fact. They usually range between 8-12% of the home support (ie average home average minus away followings). That would be like Hull City averaging around 2,500 on the road, which they don’t. Also, you need to remember that many ‘normal’ Millwall fans will not travel to certain places, certainly not with family members. If you look at our away followings closely, you will see that we have less women and children than any other club as a percentage of the following. This is because no matter where we go, every local nutter will come out of the woodwork to prove themselves. This means our away followings tend to be 18-50 year old male heavy and this creates a self fulfilling prophecy sometimes, as they will encounter said local nutters. Furthermore, Millwall’s away games have all been members only and all-ticket since the Play-Off riot in 2002. This stops people just deciding the night before or that morning. In fact my sister now lives in Bristol and messaged to say about going today, but she’d have to go in the home end with her Welsh husband. However, the low number is just as much down to it being New Year’s Day and at a ground we’ve been to plenty of times to, but proving to be a bugger to get to in current times. Plus, with Christmas bills about to come in to, £100+ to watch us at Bristol City & miss a day with family is one for the die hards. We have c8,000 season ticket holders, so 619 (plus my sister in home end) represents 7.7% of STHs. I am estimating (your website says you have 14,000 STHs) that would be like Bristol City taking 1,078 to The Den today direct from Bristol, ie not including London/southern based fans. Now, considering Bristol City brought 1,686 on the opening day in lovely August sunshine with optimism high, including London/SE based fans and are currently averaging around that too, 1,078 of you coming to The Den today would be below average, but still pretty decent. Getting back to the first point, Millwall are currently averaging a higher ratio of home fans on the road than Bristol City, despite all the barriers to our away support I have highlighted (as well as terrible season so far). So again, it depends how you look at these things… are Millwall are well supported club? No. But the fact that 12-15,000 people still bother to come support us despite us being crap for all but two seasons of our history, whilst playing a tube ride away from Arsenal, Chelsea and West Ham, and a bus ride from Charlton and Palace, and a decent percentage of those put up with all sorts of crap from other fans and police forces, perhaps suggests we are at least a passionate bunch! You not seen… already cancellations!!

Rowett left. Under Edwards we are more positive. However, he has also recognised the need to not to go gung-ho. His first game saw us win 4-0 at Sheffield Wednesday, but then some reality checks against the likes of Leicester and Ipswich, plus late goals conceded meant we have tightened up again. However, the football is far more attacking than under GR, with some good combinations developing. Bristol City are in great form though, and at home. I would be very happy with an entertaining draw.

That is a very thorough write up on our history, so good in fact that I felt it would be amiss of me (as ex history article writer for the Millwall match day programme) to not add a few missing bits that may be of interest to fellow history boffins… When Millwall changed from Rovers to Athletic due to moving to the Athletic Grounds, we became the first ever ‘Athletic’ in English football. It must have had a nice ring to it, as Pine Villa soon after became Oldham Athletic and of course some lads just down the road in Charlton liked it too! Millwall actually pioneered professional football in London and the South. Along with Woolwich Arsenal, Millwall set about setting up the first competitive league competition for southern clubs. The London and southern FAs had been very much against professionalism, hence why northern and midlands clubs are responsible for starting the Football League. However, in 1894 the Southern League kicked off, thanks to Millwall. Woolwich Arsenal, sadly, had gone behind Millwall’s back and took the Football League place that had been offered to Millwall. The Football League had been keen to expand and attract southern clubs & Millwall were its leading stars with a fine ground and some talented players. Millwall were also in the heart of industrial London, so were a good fit. However, Millwall declined the invitation, as they were able to attract 15-20,000 gates for derbys and big matches (big crowds for the era) and felt playing the likes of Darwen and Burton Swifts in Division Two would not attract as big as crowds. Furthermore, travelling to the likes of Crewe, Rotherham and Stoke would be expensive and arduous. It turned out a costly decision in the long run, as Millwall had to wait until 1920 until joining the Football League having gambled on their competition being its equal or better. But at the time it seemed the right choice, as Millwall were able to attract some first class talent, including internationals, and won the first Southern League title as undefeated champions. They followed this up by retaining the title the following season. It was this football prowess, consolidated by knocking out Football League First Division sides like Everton, Preston, Derby County and the mighty Aston Villa of the time in the FA Cup, that meant Millwall are the only English club to be bestowed a nickname for footballing endeavour, that of ‘Lions of the South’, shortened to the now famous ‘Lions’. The club much preferred this to their original nickname of ‘Dockers’ and so readily adopted, including by naming their new ground ‘The Den’. For those of you who know Millwall more for our off-field reputation, you won’t be disappointed to hear that a Millwall v West Ham game was the first English match to be reported on by the press for crowd trouble, back in the 1890s and The Den has been closed more times than any other ground for crowd trouble.

I did not say you had to respect them or that they deserve respect. I said that whether people like it or not, they do command respect from many in their communities… and this was linked to my challenge to the stereotype of all hooligans being right-wing White blokes. Ie Tiny commanded respect, despite him the opposite to the stereotype. Furthermore, I said those that I had personally met… many seemed like decent blokes overall. They were firefighters, ex military, bank managers, one was a medic!! I cannot be sure, but they seemed only interested in like minded individuals. To be fair, this was in the late 90s and early 2000s, when I went away to most games. Perhaps things have changed, society feels a lot more obnoxious overall nowadays. I find most modern football crowds obnoxious now, sadly, not just the hooligans.

That was not the point I was making. I thought I explained that I was talking about stereotypes - as it was a reply to a post about inequality/diversity.

Ah yes, I did a history piece on him for the match day programme when we played Bristol City a few seasons ago. I will try and dig it out when I get a moment.

Whether people like it or not, hooliganism is a part of football fan culture… and in places like inner city London, as well as Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds and Bristol, these people do command respect amongst many of their community peers. However, what I meant by it was that people automatically equate hooligans with skinhead White blokes, especially Millwall hooligans. The reality was and is very different. Ian ‘Tiny’ Garwood is a terrace legend at Millwall… and being a very cool, Black south London geezer, he could not be further from the stereotype. (Pictured) I would argue the Millwall hooligan scene is far more inclusive than the BBC, law firms, banks etc. And as hard as it is to accept for many, a lot of the hooligans I have meet whilst following Millwall are actually pretty decent blokes… they just happen to like a punch up with like minded individuals. Indeed, some have been more knowledgable than most on football history etc.

We certainly have our idiots at Millwall, but it isn’t quite as ‘black and white’ as outsiders tend to think. Some of Millwall’s most respected hooligans have been of Black and Turkish ethnicity. One is now a relatively famous actor, highlighted in the ‘famous fans’ section of the original post. And this continues to this day. The club also attracts many everyday fans from diverse backgrounds… have a look around tomorrow, now that you do not have to be herded from the station direct to the away end. And as already mentioned, Millwall pioneered the professionalisation of female football back in the 1980s with the Millwall Lionesses. An affiliation we are very proud of. Indeed, it is because of my nan that I am a Millwall fan. It was her who dragged my grandad down The Den and got him hooked just after the war. Her and my aunt Vera used to be regulars back then. Furthermore, yes much of the fan base is very proud of our armed forces & pro monarchy, but there has always been another dimension to Millwall. People, even some of our fans, forget how pro union and socialist many of the dockers were. And Millwall fans are credited by the Socialist Worker paper for helping defeat the NF in the Battle of Lewisham in 1977 (look it up). As a club, we reflect our surroundings… inner city London has its problems, and yes you will find some very nasty people, but you will find lots of brilliant and good people too, from all kinds of backgrounds. I have always argued Millwall are far more Only Fools & Horses than Football Factory, but one of those characterisations is probably easier for people to see from the outside & certainly sells more papers & attracts more clicks.

No worries. I wonder how you got that idea. Like I said, Millwall did have to apply for re-election in 1950, after finishing 22nd in the Third Division South. Our application was happily accepted by all clubs… remember, this was when clubs had to share gate receipts equally. Millwall, despite finishing 22nd, averaged 20,753. Some impressive gates at The Den were… 32,497 v Torquay United 30,005 v Crystal Palace 27,012 v Walsall 26,158 v Watford - whilst rock bottom and Watford in 10th! Funny enough, one of our few wins that season was against Bristol City. A 3-1 victory in front of 23,875 at The Den. The return match saw Bristol City get a 2-1 win in front of 16,331.

South Bermondsey is not closed as such, it is more that due to industrial action there will be no trains stopping there circa two hours before or after the match. I think this because the platform gets so busy even with regular trains running; that if the service is cut due to lack of staff, fewer trains running would cause chaos on that platform. Therefore it is easier just to pause the service, so people find other routes: Bermondsey / Surrey Docks / Canada Water / New Cross. I think this is where a lot of confusion has arisen. Many Millwall fans will probably still use South Bermondsey to get to the ground early. You just cannot jump on a train at London Bridge at 2pm now, after having a drink. If you are going to use South Bermondsey you need to be prepared to get to the ground early. Check National Rail for cut offs. It is the same going home. Wait around a fair while or walk to one of the other stations. The walkway is always open. As locals use it on non match days. However, as someone has said, it makes no real odds in this situation. If you are coming from Bermondsey way, you can kinda of use it as a cut through, saving about a minute maybe. Most Bristol City fans will be coming from Surrey Docks (Quays) way (the area used for filming Football Factory - if you have watched that film you may recognise the railway arches etc). The opposite side to the walkway.

Millwall fan here, and former writer for the history article for the match day programme. I can confirm, Millwall have never been relegated from the Football League. Our last spell in the bottom tier was back in 1965. Our lowest ever finish in the four-tier format was 9th in 1958/59. The club did have to sadly apply for re-election in 1950, having finished 22nd in the Third Division (South). Indeed, as you can see, the post-war period was the worst in Millwall’s history. This is made even more heart-breaking by the fact that it followed the most promising period in the club’s story. Between the two world wars, Millwall were one of the best supported clubs in the entire country. The Den was at the centre of a huge working-class community, which supplied labour to the London Docks, the very heartbeat of the British Empire. Crowds of 30-40,000 came to watch important matches even in the doldrums of the Third and Second tiers, 40-50,000 came to watch big cup games or London derbies. Even the pre-season match between Millwall Blues and Millwall Reds (a first team v reserve team game) attracted 15-20,000. I mention this, as know that Bristol City are very similar in being a club that had the potential to go on and be a truly big club. Neither Millwall, or it seems Bristol City, ever caught the breaks needed. Indeed, in the late 1930s Millwall were building real momentum, the club were signing past and future internationals, crowds were building and a run to the FA Cup Semi-Finals saw First Division sides Fulham, Chelsea, Derby County and that season’s eventual First Division Champions, Manchester City, fall at The Den. In the 1938/39 season, 37,115 came to Cold Blow Lane to see how Millwall would fair against hot favourites for promotion and league leaders Blackburn Rovers. The Lions won 4-1. Rovers would finish as champions and so many at The Den that day thought that surely the next season would be the one in which Millwall finally joined the top table. However, Hitler had other ideas. The London Docklands that surrounded the club suffered greatly during the Second World War. The Den was hit by a German bomb in one of, if not the very last, attacks of the Blitz. The insurance company refused to pay out, as it had more pressing claims to cover. When ground was reopened, still with a bomb crater, a discarded cigarette burnt down the main stand. Again, no insurance money was available. The club went from being one of the richest in the land and on the way up in the late 1930s, to being broke and ground sharing after the war. The application for re-election and then the indignity of becoming founding members of the new Division Four in 1958 were lingering symptoms of the impact of the war on the club. The decline of the docks then saw an end to Millwall ever becoming one of the big London clubs for good. At least Bristol City still have the opportunity to become a big, regional club ala Brighton & Hove Albion. We are far too hemmed in, by Chelsea to the west, Palace to the south, Charlton to the east and only a short tube ride away from Arsenal, Spurs and West Ham north of the river. In fact, it is pretty amazing that we are still able to draw 12-15,000 fans to matches, given our complete lack of success, horrific reputation and the geography outlined above. No-one could accuse the children and grandchildren of the old dockers who didn’t give up on the club in the post-war period of not being passionate about their club at least. As an aside, I always find it funny that many of the most interesting history snippets about Millwall are often left out of these reviews, not just on football forums, but by the likes of Sky and the BBC too. For example… Millwall are the only club in England to have been bestowed a nickname based on footballing endeavor. Nicknamed the ‘Dockers’ on account of the occupation of many of the original players and supporters, Millwall were christened the ‘Lions of the South’ by the sporting press because they were the first working-class club from the south to give the dominant northern and midlands Football League sides of the late Victorian era a bloody nose in the FA Cup. Millwall not only knocked out the famous Preston North End club, plus the mighty Everton in runs to the Semi-Finals of the FA Cup in 1900 and 1903, but also defeated one of the most dominant forces English football has ever seen in the Aston Villa side of the turn of the century. Villa were five times English Champions between 1893 and 1900, as well as FA Cup winners on three occasions between 1887 and 1897. They were double winners in 1896/97. But could not knock-out the East End team over three matches. Millwall’s 2-1 win in the second reply cemented Millwall’s image as the ‘Lions’. Indeed, no other club has knocked out more sides from a higher division than Millwall have in the FA Cup. Millwall are the ultimate giant killers, with FA Cup holders and League Champions all being mauled by the Lions over the years. Premier League Champions Leicester City were the latest scalp to be added to an illustrious list, when the then League One Lions beat a strong Foxes side in the last minute of the 5th round tie at The Den, despite playing the entire second half with ten men. Other interesting facts (if you are still reading!) that often get overlooked are… Millwall are the only club to go undefeated at home for an entire season on five separate occasions, and across four separate divisions. Once the club went 59 consecutive home games without defeat between 1964 and 1967, consisting of 43 wins and 16 draws, scoring 112 goals, and conceding just 33 with 35 clean sheets. Even on moving from the intimidating Old Den, the club still has a very strong home record. Millwall only lost one league home game in the first season at the ‘new’ Den, unfortunately it was the first ever league game in SE16, a 4-1 spanking live on TV to Southend United. In fact, fans only saw 5 defeats in the first 46 home league matches in the new surroundings. Millwall were the first club to have a community scheme and partnership with its local authority. Long before sports washing became a thing in the 1980s. Furthermore, in was in this period Millwall also became the first club to open an official family stand and creche, as well form an affiliation with a women’s team – the Millwall Lionesses. The Lionesses were true pioneers of the women’s game in this country. Millwall hold the record for most official fans at both the new and old Wembley. 47,349 Millwall fans officially attended the Auto-Windscreens Shield Cup Final v Wigan Athletic in 1999. They were also more in the corporate boxes. In 2009, 49,661 Lions fans attended the League One Play-Off Final v Scunthorpe United. Neither of these records have been beaten by official sales. Both turnouts are no doubt a nod to Millwall’s history as well supported club when the docks were thriving, with everyone connected to the club wanting to see us on our first official visits to the new and old stadiums. *Millwall did play Chelsea in a Football League War Cup (South) Final at Wembley in front of 90,000 spectators. Millwall were the first southern club to be offered a place in the Football League in 1894. They were probably seen as a great coup, being an inner-city London side, with good support and a decent ground. However, the club turned down the offer, as it was pioneering its own professional league – the Southern League. The Millwall directors believing that competitive matches v the likes of old rivals Arsenal and hopefully other London clubs and decent southern sides like Southampton would be more attractive than playing provincial sides like Darwen, Burton Swifts and Grimsby Town. Travel costs were also seen as a big factor. However, despite promises of helping to pioneer the Southern League idea with Millwall, Woolwich Arsenal (a poorly supported club on the Kent borders at the time) accepted the Football League’s offer instead… and the rest, as they say, is history! Who knows… a few of you may read that on the train to London to past the time. Re the actual match. It will be very emotional. I just hope our players can handle the atmosphere. I do not foresee any trouble, but Millwall still remains a place that if you go looking for trouble, you will find it (bit like Bristol!). I recommend drinking around London Bridge and then tubing it to Bermondsey / Canada Water if you are sensible walking through Bermondsey. Or you can go to Surrey Docks (Quays) and drink at the Wetherspoons there, as often see away fans around there and if they create no bother, they get no bother. I have seen young lads thinking that it was like a trip to Watford or Reading, where singing ‘XYZ is a shithole I wanna go home’ and all those obnoxious songs wouldn’t draw attention… around Bermondsey they will. For those asking about avoiding main pubs… as in hooligan pubs… I doubt your Google maps will take you past any of these, as they tend to be more off the main roads. Saying that, walking past the Blue Anchor or Ancient Forresters on the main roads will still require some respect for the locals inside. I would not drink in them if I was you, just because they are very partisan and will be very busy Saturday. The Bermondsey Beer Mile is pretty good for drinking and avoiding the football crowds – look it up.