Piccolo

11 minutes ago, Peter O Hanraha-hanrahan said:

Between Christmas and New Year, think it was a Thursday night? 

True.

A better example would be the 1,340 Bristol City brought on a Saturday afternoon in February 2020 whilst 7th in the Championship. 

3 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

If our away attendances are inflated by 'South East' fans does that make your home attendances even more terrible as your fans don't move away from the 'South East'

I would argue our home attendances are very healthy. Six matches have already been a sell-out for home fans this season, despite us until last few games really struggling.

Furthermore, you have to take in account Millwall play a tube ride away from West Ham, Arsenal, Chelsea and Fulham. A bus ride from Crystal Palace and a good walk from Charlton. I would say that if you took the populations of all the areas considered ‘Millwall areas’, such as Bermondsey, New Cross etc, you are looking at c.200,000 people. Therefore average home support of 12-15,000 home fans is very good percentage wise, especially when you consider our complete lack of success and the transient nature of an inner London population too. For example, if the people of Leeds supported their one club in the same % of the population, they’d be getting c60,000 to games, even when they were in League One (they in fact dropped down to 16-18,000 at one point).

Again, it is all about how you look at these things. How many do you think Bristol City would average if you played out their league history playing a few tube stops away from Arsenal, West Ham & Chelsea?
 

9 minutes ago, old_eastender said:

Yep and probably with a bottom 6 budget too. 

Around 16/17th I believe. We try to get in the right characters. 

3 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

I just said we tend to travel well in London, and you gave me a life story.

Mate, I didn’t. I concisely used facts to counter your opinion is all. But I often find people get all defensive and prickly when that happens these days. 

6 minutes ago, Hocca said:

We are the one of the slowest, weakest and least creative attacking unit in the league it’s actually pathetic. Needs a good 3 attacking players brought in with pace and creativity or we will continue to suffer against poor opposition like Birmingham and Millwall. Time to move on players like James and Weimann good servants but clearly their best days are behind them.

To be fair to us (Millwall), we have been a top half Championship side in all but one of the last six seasons, and top nine in four of those.  And I can see us finishing top 12 again this season too. 

1 minute ago, ProfitInMyPocket said:

We keep playing the same way, back to Dickie or Vyner once our forward options don't show for it.

Weimann goes hiding in behind markers and looks like he is running through sludge. Knight hasn't got the strength/pace to hold off or get beyond players and hold it up. Mehmeti not consistent enough.

Conway isolated and the subs are always like-for-like so nothing changes. The opposition can stay in their set-up and defend as it was and we don't look like changing it up.

Wells on his own like Conway fighting battles they'll rarely win. Sykes looks crocked, Cornick and Bell not in favour, Yeboah won't get an opportunity now.

The players aren't being played to their strengths and that's evident with this tippy-tappy hot potato 'front-foot-football'. 

Can see what Manning is trying to do. Just isn't what I like to watch, I like to see teams mix it up a bit and we are so predictable.

I don't mind losing to better teams or teams with a clear plan that counter us but Millwall really didn't do that much to beat us today and that is deflating.

That is a bit unfair, as I think we executed our plan perfectly. Edwards has got us playing counter attack football and that is what we did today. 

4 hours ago, Lew-T said:

Mate I’m really not arsed.

Happy New Year

Okay. I was just pointing out that I was right is all. 

2 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

I would say so. We tend to travel well in London.

Bristol City brought 1,122 to The Den last season for a fixture just before Christmas and that obviously included London & SE based fans. So I don’t think I am talking non sense when I suggest that you’d take a similar percentage of home fans (from Bristol) to us for a New Years Day match costing £35
 

1 minute ago, Loosey Boy said:

Trains to Parkway cancelled due to flooding - looks like they will be cancelled for pretty much the whole day but trains to BTM are fine

Good. But £100 plus quid to watch us at a very familiar ground still isn’t gonna entice more than the hardcore on New Years Day, after Christmas and at the height of a cost of living crisis. As said, nearly 8% of STHs bothering is still pretty respectable imo. Would more than 1,100 Bristolians bother coming to The Den direct from Bristol today (ie not London/SE based), whilst near bottom of table? 

4 minutes ago, Olé said:

Seen both women and children going to watch Millwall on my train. Also not sure about cancelllations mate, can see half hourly trains running all morning! 

Yeah, I didn’t say no women and children watch us away, just that it will be a lower % than any other club due to the crap we have to put up with from locals and local police forces. 

Also my cousin sent me this… so who knows… not sure why he’d lie?! 

2 minutes ago, Offside said:

That’s a horrific price to charge fans. 

Yep. As said, over £100 for an adult to simply come by train (if lucky) and watch us today. That’s without eating or drinking anything. I love Bristol, great city, my sister lives there too, but I’ll be saving the money thanks!

Just now, GrahamC said:

Fair enough, wasn’t aware of the capacity restriction.

Is that a long term thing? Wikipedia says it can hold around 18100 as a result of this.

It goes up and down, depending on who we are playing. I have been at 16,500 ‘sell-outs’ v West Ham. 

It was interesting to compare away followings that went to Millwall and Charlton when in same division. The two are 4 miles apart, with The Den actually easier to get to, but the same club took double the fans to the Valley nearly in every example. 

2 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Really small club at our level, in the bottom five for home attendances & one of those (Argyle) are only below them because their ground is smaller, every game at Home Park has sold out.

When you consider the number of away fans for London games it shows how tiny they are.

To be fair, all but two home games at The Den have sold out for home fans this season. We can only hold 15,500 home fans due to poor design of The Den. If clubs travelled to us in the numbers they do to other London clubs we’d be averaging 19,000 odd (or whatever the Met now let us); 20,000 if we were allowed all seats to be used, which we aren’t. 

2 hours ago, Fat Cigar said:

They never seem to travel in big numbers. 

Depends how you look at it. Compared to big, regional clubs like Leeds United, Sheffield Wednesday and Norwich City, no we don’t.

But as a ratio of home support, our numbers are pretty decent in fact. They usually range between 8-12% of the home support (ie average home average minus away followings). That would be like Hull City averaging around 2,500 on the road, which they don’t. 

Also, you need to remember that many ‘normal’ Millwall fans will not travel to certain places, certainly not with family members. If you look at our away followings closely, you will see that we have less women and children than any other club as a percentage of the following. This is because no matter where we go, every local nutter will come out of the woodwork to prove themselves. This means our away followings tend to be 18-50 year old male heavy and this creates a self fulfilling prophecy sometimes, as they will encounter said local nutters.

Furthermore, Millwall’s away games have all been members only and all-ticket since the Play-Off riot in 2002. This stops people just deciding the night before or that morning. In fact my sister now lives in Bristol and messaged to say about going today, but she’d have to go in the home end with her Welsh husband.

However, the low number is just as much down to it being New Year’s Day and at a ground we’ve been to plenty of times to, but proving to be a bugger to get to in current times. Plus, with Christmas bills about to come in to, £100+ to watch us at Bristol City & miss a day with family is one for the die hards. We have c8,000 season ticket holders, so 619 (plus my sister in home end) represents 7.7% of STHs. I am estimating (your website says you have 14,000 STHs) that would be like Bristol City taking 1,078 to The Den today direct from Bristol, ie not including London/southern based fans. Now, considering Bristol City brought 1,686 on the opening day in lovely August sunshine with optimism high, including London/SE based fans and are currently averaging around that too, 1,078 of you coming to The Den today would be below average, but still pretty decent. 
 

Getting back to the first point, Millwall are currently averaging a higher ratio of home fans on the road than Bristol City, despite all the barriers to our away support I have highlighted (as well as terrible season so far). So again, it depends how you look at these things… are Millwall are well supported club? No. But the fact that 12-15,000 people still bother to come support us despite us being crap for all but two seasons of our history, whilst playing a tube ride away from Arsenal, Chelsea and West Ham, and a bus ride from Charlton and Palace, and a decent percentage of those put up with all sorts of crap from other fans and police forces, perhaps suggests we are at least a passionate bunch! 

27 minutes ago, Olé said:

Absolutely fine. Every half hour. On one now and seen about 20 Millwall fans in total. Small groups of either old timers or teenagers. I guess those old enough and young enough to still party hard didn't want to curtail NYE with an early start.

You not seen… already cancellations!! 

1 hour ago, Garland-sweden said:

They will play defensive like Brum I suppose. Patient, fast passes and legs will be needed. 2-0 City. COYR 

Rowett left.

Under Edwards we are more positive. However, he has also recognised the need to not to go gung-ho. His first game saw us win 4-0 at Sheffield Wednesday, but then some reality checks against the likes of Leicester and Ipswich, plus late goals conceded meant we have tightened up again. However, the football is far more attacking than under GR, with some good combinations developing.

Bristol City are in great form though, and at home. I would be very happy with an entertaining draw. 

13 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

hooligan

 

noun

 

1. a violent young troublemaker, typically one of a gang.

    

   So going back quite a few years I was having my usual pre-match pint or two at The Try Again - a really peaceful City pub when a small group of Millwall supporters  burst in hit the nearest people and ran out. One was a young lad and the other was an old fella who suffered a cut above his eye. These were not "like minded people"- just people wanting to watch a game of football in peace.

    

   Hooligans pretending to support any team be it Bristol City or Millwall are, imo, absolute scum and do not deserve respect from anyone. If they want to fight then do it elsewhere and not in pretence of being a football fan. 

    

   I like your history lesson but equally despise your comment regarding respect for these sub humans and NO - they are not "decent blokes".

    

I did not say you had to respect them or that they deserve respect. I said that whether people like it or not, they do command respect from many in their communities… and this was linked to my challenge to the stereotype of all hooligans being right-wing White blokes. Ie Tiny commanded respect, despite him the opposite to the stereotype.

Furthermore, I said those that I had personally met… many seemed like decent blokes overall. They were firefighters, ex military, bank managers, one was a medic!! I cannot be sure, but they seemed only interested in like minded individuals. To be fair, this was in the late 90s and early 2000s, when I went away to most games. Perhaps things have changed, society feels a lot more obnoxious overall nowadays. I find most modern football crowds obnoxious now, sadly, not just the hooligans. 

24 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

Phew, one of my biggest concerns when I or others get physically attacked or intimidated due to the football team I support is whether it's by an appropriately racially diverse group reflective of the nearby area. That really sets me at ease for future Millwall trips!

That was not the point I was making. I thought I explained that I was talking about stereotypes - as it was a reply to a post about inequality/diversity.


 

33 minutes ago, chowie said:

Great read thank you.

My Great Grandfather Alf 'Jasper' Geddes played for Millwall & Bristol City, I think this picture is displayed at The Den somewhere (or used to be)

Signed to Bristol City from Millwall (via Bedminster) in 1899 then stayed here and my Nan was born 11 years later.

Ah yes, I did a history piece on him for the match day programme when we played Bristol City a few seasons ago. I will try and dig it out when I get a moment. 

38 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

I've been struggling with this .

 

Whether people like it or not, hooliganism is a part of football fan culture… and in places like inner city London, as well as Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds and Bristol, these people do command respect amongst many of their community peers. 

However, what I meant by it was that people automatically equate hooligans with skinhead White blokes, especially Millwall hooligans. The reality was and is very different. Ian ‘Tiny’ Garwood is a terrace legend at Millwall… and being a very cool, Black south London geezer, he could not be further from the stereotype. (Pictured)

I would argue the Millwall hooligan scene is far more inclusive than the BBC, law firms, banks etc.

And as hard as it is to accept for many, a lot of the hooligans I have meet whilst following Millwall are actually pretty decent blokes… they just happen to like a punch up with like minded individuals. Indeed, some have been more knowledgable than most on football history etc. 

27 minutes ago, phantom said:

Interesting video released by Millwall this afternoon, hopefully we don't get to witness them getting ignored tomorrow, but if previous visits are anything to go by..... 

 

 

We certainly have our idiots at Millwall, but it isn’t quite as ‘black and white’ as outsiders tend to think. 

Some of Millwall’s most respected hooligans have been of Black and Turkish ethnicity. One is now a relatively famous actor, highlighted in the ‘famous fans’ section of the original post. And this continues to this day. The club also attracts many everyday fans from diverse backgrounds… have a look around tomorrow, now that you do not have to be herded from the station direct to the away end.

And as already mentioned, Millwall pioneered the professionalisation of female football back in the 1980s with the Millwall Lionesses. An affiliation we are very proud of. Indeed, it is because of my nan that I am a Millwall fan. It was her who dragged my grandad down The Den and got him hooked just after the war. Her and my aunt Vera used to be regulars back then.

Furthermore, yes much of the fan base is very proud of our armed forces & pro monarchy, but there has always been another dimension to Millwall. People, even some of our fans, forget how pro union and socialist many of the dockers were. And Millwall fans are credited by the Socialist Worker paper for helping defeat the NF in the Battle of Lewisham in 1977 (look it up). 

As a club, we reflect our surroundings… inner city London has its problems, and yes you will find some very nasty people, but you will find lots of brilliant and good people too, from all kinds of backgrounds. I have always argued Millwall are far more Only Fools & Horses than Football Factory, but one of those characterisations is probably easier for people to see from the outside & certainly sells more papers & attracts more clicks.  

20 minutes ago, Jerseybean said:

Thank you Piccolo and others I stand corrected, Millwall have never been relegated from the Football League. 

No worries. I wonder how you got that idea. Like I said, Millwall did have to apply for re-election in 1950, after finishing 22nd in the Third Division South. 

Our application was happily accepted by all clubs… remember, this was when clubs had to share gate receipts equally. Millwall, despite finishing  22nd, averaged 20,753. Some impressive gates at The Den were…

32,497 v Torquay United

30,005 v Crystal Palace

27,012 v Walsall

26,158 v Watford - whilst rock bottom and Watford in 10th! 

Funny enough, one of our few wins that season was against Bristol City. A 3-1 victory in front of 23,875 at The Den. The return match saw Bristol City get a 2-1 win in front of 16,331.

South Bermondsey is not closed as such, it is more that due to industrial action there will be no trains stopping there circa two hours before or after the match. I think this because the platform gets so busy even with regular trains running; that if the service is cut due to lack of staff, fewer trains running would cause chaos on that platform. Therefore it is easier just to pause the service, so people find other routes: Bermondsey / Surrey Docks / Canada Water / New Cross. 
 

I think this is where a lot of confusion has arisen. Many Millwall fans will probably still use South Bermondsey to get to the ground early. You just cannot jump on a train at London Bridge at 2pm now, after having a drink. If you are going to use South Bermondsey you need to be prepared to get to the ground early. Check National Rail for cut offs. It is the same going home. Wait around a fair while or walk to one of the other stations. 
 

The walkway is always open. As locals use it on non match days. However, as someone has said, it makes no real odds in this situation. If you are coming from Bermondsey way, you can kinda of use it as a cut through, saving about a minute maybe. Most Bristol City fans will be coming from Surrey Docks (Quays) way (the area used for filming Football Factory - if you have watched that film you may recognise the railway arches etc). The opposite side to the walkway.