Rob26

is there anything where you can read about their case in a bit of detail to see what come out in the wash

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/roman-abramovich-made-secret-7m-payment-to-eden-hazards-agent-wpvz3xz3f anyone able to unblock this or copy and paste for me? here's another article (not blocked) https://www.givemesport.com/chelsea-facing-possible-points-deduction-over-investigation-into-secret-payments/ one reason I think everton may get somewhat of a hand slap if they can blame it all on covid as its probs the one situation they want to give a pass because if they don't it opens up huge cans of worms, along with all the costs that come with it. Its a once in a lifetime situation, i think the waters are muddied enough to probs just get a fine with a stellar legal team, if they went into this breach consulting sports legal teams to try and find as much grey area as they could before they breached it (which you would assume you would do surely if you had their money and half a brain :laugh:) not that I think that is fair, but do think covid is a get out clause for a lot of things these days, just be glad when it drops off the map for ffp. I really think covid losses should of been capped at a global figure for all clubs, make it fair, I hope they have something in place for if the situation comes up again where the league sets the allowed losses for any force majeure circumstances and applies it to all clubs in the league.

about the same time they also loaned them 3 players too, article describes it as chelsea doing swindon a solid, :laugh: no shit they did them a solid :laugh: https://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/chelsea-fc-transfer-rumours-news/2017/1/11/14238938/swindon-town-chelsea-loan-transfer-colkett-dabo-feruz

https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2023-11-15/roman-abramovichs-hidden-football-deals-during-chelseas-time-at-the-top lots of dirt here, not sure why its pasted with black background sorry :laugh: Abramovich’s hidden football deals during Chelsea’s time at the top Offshore deals with key figures were not recorded in Chelsea’s accounts, despite potentially benefiting the club

not sure how they are setup around the board, I might be remembering wrong, but I'm sure i've heard a few things on price of football podcast that there is a bit of a power struggle with the share holdings at norwich, so may be a reason why they are not getting people put money into the club as much if its a situation that the long standing shareholders dont want to give away equity and more control for the minority shareholders coughing up money in their place (which if they didnt match they would most likely have to pay him back or convert it to equity for him).

yeah if them sort of deals happened to get around the loans they would just be subject to a different valuation and there is no doubt in my mind that if the saudi club paid a big fee for the player that would be the value they would seek epically if the transfer was fresh in the first season, maybe every year they would reduce it but that idea of a proposed buy back of £1 wouldn't help the PL club trying to gain the system, the fee they paid would be re-valued and then they get £1 back when the buy back is activated. that would put them at a full loss on the books. any situation you imagine for a way to gain the system has to end in the PL club having a positive impact on their FFP, compared to signing the player. a simple way to avoid this is to have FIFA come out and it a rule that no clubs owned by the same entities are allowed to interact with each other professionally in the form of trades or meeting in competitive competitions.

there is an easy way to value it for me 1) what's the total max cost of payments to the player over the full length of the contract at the club that owns them 2) what is the full cost of payments to agents and the selling clubs for the full deal pro-rata what both of these figures are over the length of the contract to get your monthly/seasonally rate , then pro-rata the rate you come up for the period on loan, that way a club outside of FFP cannot absorb the cost for a club that is inside a FFP region then it would need at least another club to wash the player for them to do it and gain from it. which could also be investigated and revalued if it was in a short time period of signing the player, eg the same transfer window. take away the potential for gain and it will make it more complicated for them to gain the system, by letting a club under FFP borrow a player at a reduced/bargain cost.

bet their is savings on the wages tho too.

thankfully if they don't make the call its all boils down to what will be put on a extraordinary situation that covid 19 was really interesting how that wild card is going to stand up, seems to be a bit of a free pass for many

some of the stuff he has put out in that interview is batshit crazy, what he expect to happen that one of the fans is actually a millionaire and going to respond by buying him out the club? or have fans lend a club where the owner has said he will not put any more money into it, on the hope of keeping their club and making interest on it, yet if he wont put any money into the club there is no doubt the cashflow dries up and your unsecured loan sharp becomes worthless :laugh: he can't be such an idiot he would rather not fund the club and have administration take it out his hands to make him get less from a sale than if he funded it and sold it if someone comes in who can make a deal with him. there's no scenario in saying that where you get any respect from the fans or helps his situation at all.

Chansiri is having a wip arround if anyone wants to donate so he dont have to pay anything https://www.thestar.co.uk/sport/football/sheffield-wednesday/sheffield-wednesday-dejphon-chansiri-fans-hmrc-wages-4391378 Sheffield Wednesday owner Dejphon Chansiri: Fans must ‘save club’ with £2m for HMRC and wages Sheffield Wednesday owner Dejphon Chansiri has asked supporters who ‘call themselves owners’ to come up with £2m within the next few days to save the club from a multi-window transfer embargo - and admitted players and club staff might not be paid this month amid major cash flow issues.

god bless amortisation :laugh: the clubs that went down wont even get close to 300m, thats just what they are probs asking for you, like the league asking for 12 points, that's their top end, obviously will be contested and brought down appeals process can take a long time because its a legal issue not a sporting issue as it would be challenged in court. if they carry on as they have this season I think they will finish above a 12 point penalty. Dyche will grind enough results I think to keep their head above water, the teams below them are just significantly weaker and I think only one of them out the 4 would probs get them out that rut with a change of management. It's probs the perfect season for them to be docked 12 points. man citys 115 counts actually sound a lot easier to defend than evertons, everton only have covid to rely on, but the evidence on citys claims is lacking, I've seen a few videos where people with a legal mind have gone through it all and alot of it looks like fluff, the obv have broken ffp but think they have covered their tracks enough legally to just get a slap on the wrist, not enough of the claims are backed with good evidence. people look at the uefa case and think it was time barred but that was only one small part of the case and most of it was not sufficiently evidenced and the fine was for not co-operating. the premier league has a uber high burden of proof in this case. here is a good legal summary on how hard some of these charges the premier league has made are going to be to evidence and prove and most have been tried and failed by uefa, a lot based on the number of auditors and other bodies that have previously approved all of these facts in the cases. and unless the deception is proven there is a 6 year statue of limitations which has clearly passed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuz2z2m1Vzk then you also have to factor in the governments role in this, they rely on the UAE for their special relationship with them that makes our country lots of money and no doubt a call will of been made to them to sort it out for them as well. the league is essentially accusing them of full on fraud and deception which you know they wont let slide. this also increases the chances of their being a slap on the wrist fine, probs for the agent fees and manager off the book payments, which really are just next to nothing offences in the grand scheme of things. then factor in another goverment element, if they did fake revenue do the goverment owe them millions in overpaid tax :laugh: the whole thing also is going to done at the request of the premier league behind closed doors, that sounds to me they are not confident or do not want what they are putting forward viewed by anyone. I don't doubt city have had plenty of early day shenanigans with ffp like many other clubs and gotten away with it, but this whole situation to me just reeks of the premier league trying to get leverage with the goverment against getting a regulator established to control them. The timing was indicator of it and also them wanting to keep it all private tells me that its probs has a lot of frivolous parts to the case. Epically with it failing for Uefa where the proof required was much less. After all like I said its one of our countries golden gooses this relationship we have with them, and the whole thing seems setup for a similar out come as the city case where they will just pay it off and maybe they may not be as regulated as they may have been. both sides in both cases have option to taking it to high court and the court of appeal afterwards as well, this is why the appeals process will take a long time, they can't rush appeals like that otherwise that may likely be used in follow up appeals so everything needs to be correct

I'm guessing its going to fully fully negoatied as everton do have the leverage I think to appeal and drag it out several years. so would expect things if they get settled without appeals to turn out to be a fine and the points to come down or have a good chunk of them to change to suspended. part of me thinks that they would have to be stupid to think they could just breach and blame covid without taking strong legal advice to confirm if it would stand up or not. covid's been used as a massive get out clause for all sorts of failings in business in and out of football, so for me I think that is one thing that cannot be underestimated even tho we all know its a cop out/fiddle, but they may be fortunate that covid gets them out of it. I think 12 points is fair for sure, think even 6 has potential to take them down if they don't sort out their performances on the pitch on the season the dock is placed. I do wonder how it will go if they get docked 12 points and appeal, as the articles are making out the points being docked would be this season (which I imagine is what they are asking for not the reality), I wonder how appeal would work to remove that - assuming the appeals last as long as others (which have been years previously) would the points be suspended until after the appeals.

https://metro.co.uk/2023/10/25/everton-face-12-point-deduction-as-premier-league-demand-severe-punishment-19718928/ everton 12 points down possibly or thats what the league is asking for as the top end of the punishment

he still probs better than the current owners tho , saying that most people are :laugh:

he's just been on talk sport, every reading fan response was out frying pan into the fire, and he seemed to dodge questions about lawsuits (although he said there was 8 cases, he won 7 and is on the front foot on the last one) and dodgy business dealings, he was all talk and sounded like he was gonna mostly borrow the money than use his own

you deserved getting relegated for selling us rudy gustede, although as a boro fan we deserved to get relegated for buying him when we went last down first thing we done was blast most of the parachute payments under monk trying to do what newcastle did the year before, needless to say it didn't work out I don't think there is many fans who will agree with loopholes that remove assets from the club to the owner, but if clubs take advantage of it to make FFP you I cannot hate on them - they will always operate within the rules in front of them. the anger should be directed towards the governing bodies that never had the foresight to consult with accountants and lawyers to anticipate what loopholes people would use to beat the system. at least they are closed now and they are making efforts to close other options as they come up too. people always think of new ways to get around authorities rules, I'm sure that they will be plenty of more fixes come out over the years that we haven't even thought about yet I do also think if the loopholes were not there for the land sales then maybe the clubs would still of passed FFP one way or another, I think they just would of had a different budget altogether and probs planned the land sales to create that budget rather than spending the money and thinking crap what can we do to fix this, hey lets sell the stadium etc

land sales was defs a loophole but a legal one so even if we frown upon it if them clubs not broke the rules then you cannot blame them for taking advantage of it, league/uefa when implementing the FFP should of had some accountants look at their rules they wanted to put in place and said your club x your making a 70m loss this season and breaching ffp, how do you game the system but the clubs that got punished got punished for other factors other than selling stadiums for ffp, they did sell the stadiums but had other factors why they got punished as the stadium sales were deemed fine, like sheff wed literally back dated the sale by around a year to stay within FFP but the land registry showed they had lied, derby was for administration mainly, the stadium part was cleared on ffp but players values was not etc i don't buy into a hs2 villa conspiracy to give them money and keep them in ffp, I just think they have clearly benefited from it, but it is the rules so they not done anything wrong. With the speed of the deal going through maybe Villa had a lot more leverage in the deal than many other people do, with them flagging up they had 10m of costs that could not be cancelled that would be ruined if the purchase was forced through I'm guessing the hs2 project may have been keen to get a settlement sorted sooner than later before more money was spent on the development on what would essentially be abortive construction works

they may be arguing all periods were in breech until the facts are established legally. no doubt they will have to give some of the relegated teams hand outs, wonder how much tho, very interesting. plus would that put them in breach again payin out 10s of millions compo

yeah 10% of the original value before hs2 went past you get a payment for as the development will reduce your property value by a similar value, so this will be the value of 10% of the property's value that they keep. So looks like they are being forced to also sell 10% of the land, so they will keep 90% and get a payment for 10% of the original value of that 90% of the land. then they are also due payment for the land (10%) they are being forced to sell to allow it to pass through the site. usually compulsory purchases like this are the value of the land bought, plus 10% compensation for doing so. that news article below looks like they are wanting to enhance the money claiming how much they have spent on the land that will need to be redone, so they spent 9m so a portion of that they are claiming is recoverable as well. I bet you probs get a cash revenue boost for the sale and compo of the training ground to your revenue for ffp, but then you need to spend a big chunk on alterations due to the hs2 going through the site but these are all infrastructure based costs so do not cause a negative draw on your new revenue. if its the money your due, then they just like anyone else I think you should get what you deserve, sucks it looks like it will help them out with ffp but is revenue after all, just unfortunate that they will be able to spend against this and it shouldn't come off their budgets.

heres the full statement, its pretty high up the bat shit crazy out bursts you could probs have, looks to me he is using it as an excuse to stop putting money into the club https://www.swfc.co.uk/news/2023/september/dejphon-chansiri-club-statement_/

just an mp tagging their name to something for attention, he knows and it will result in nothing, its just typical mp pandering. thats open to more abuse tho, say 5m bond, they pay that to break the rules i disagree they do not affect the owner tho, all these sanctions over the last few years has definitely made reading worth less (for anyone trying to take over) I know fans take a hit but you need them punishments in place for when the alternatives are not working, and lets face it the clubs getting points taken off them are having multiple times where these points deductions can be avoided before it happens. you need stiffer punishments there to move the clubs down the leagues for their persistent offences. I think faceless punishments that don't affect you in the league is why some of these owners think they can make the same mistakes again paying people late etc and think they will just get an embargo or suspended punishment, efl gotta enforce something along the lines, and I think they have been generous with Reading that they have only been docked 4 points this season tbh. Although they may be more to come :laugh:

reading transfer embargo due to late payments https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2023/09/26/reading-transfer-embargo-hmrc-tax-efl-points-deduction/

The Everton Football Club owner, Farhad Moshiri, received more than £400m from Alisher Usmanov companies in the run-up to the Russian billionaire being placed under sanctions, documents suggest, raising fresh questions about the financial ties between the two men. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/sep/26/everton-fc-owner-alisher-usmanov-farhad-moshiri

yeah I agree with this could be a position based system where you get more per league position, but do not take away from clubs guaranteed sums, and the amount could be equal to one guaranteed club share, so if everyone's getting a 5m share of the money, then you have 5m prize fund to split. make it a condition that clubs to win this money they need to meet criteria in point 3, eg need no late payments/embargos/sanctions/infractions - suspended or not active/or this season, need to stay within their financial constraints (which can control all the inflationary elements) if they do not meet all the criteria any money they would win is added to the total pot and their shares are removed from the split, punishing those who push the rules or use the infractions as a buffer when they feel the punishment won't matter as they wont let it go that far. it's not a massive financial punishment for failing, but does reward every club that followed the rules when they are excluded. 24 teams = 300 shares of prize money, if 5m that would give top team 400k, (with 24 shares) 10th 250k (15 shares), 24th 16.666k (one share) its enough to compete for to make every game competitive at the end of the season, but also not big enough to effectively rob from poor performing teams. obv each share is worth more if you have teams in the league which have had infractions. This season burnley and sheff utd would of been disqualified from this due to not meeting criteria for point 3 (I CBA to look to see what other clubs other than reading would be too, but reading are not included in these next split calcs) that would of also put 783k back into this hypothetical 5m pot for everyone else to get, reducing the shares to 253 shares at almost 20k each, making 3rd worth 434k as top prize 22 shares, 10th 296k with 15 shares, 24th 19.76k 1 share