38MC

12 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Miilion pound on the line or not if someone offered me a win tonight OR Saturday I would take Middlesbrough all day long to be honest. I might be in a minority of one but it's the league results that need addressing.

I’d take tonight. Lose tonight and the season is over. We aren’t going down as much as we aren’t going up; although agree league form needs addressing 

14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Tinnion said he himself should be starting!

Tinnion shouldn’t be saying a thing about the manager’s selection or who should start. 

1 hour ago, Natchfever said:

Did he actually say that though?

If he did, as boring as it may be to some Jon boy should not be given a pass for spouting shit.

Hes chairman isnt he? Wouldnt be anywhere else but we have him. 

That being said, the role comes with certain responsibilities, one of which being communication. If you communicate bollocks but are not accountable because dad owns the club, the least you should expect is to have the piss taken out of you for being wholly inadequate for the role.

I remember reading a post on her going through all the comments made and I don’t think he did actually say it verbatim but it was implied. 

Agree he shouldn’t get a pass, and I don’t think he’s going to get it, but it is very overused. 

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

In respect of Blackburn the issue is perhaps Venkys being unable to get money out of India quite so readily.

Not sure if it is Protectionism as such but India maybe frowning a bit towards foreign expenditure by companies etc.

It 100% is protectionism to protect their currency. Money spent in India stays there 

10 minutes ago, SydneyCity said:

I watch a fair bit of Scottish football. McInnes is a very good, pragmatic manager, in my opinion. Did very well at Aberdeen and currently has a near penniless Kilmarnck sitting in 4th in the SPL.

He has a preferred style of play, but is more able to adapt to what he actually has in front of him than Manning.

My take on McInnes here was the right manager at the wrong time. Certainly not rose tinted glasses as it was ultimately a failure, but I'm not convinced I'll be looking back at Manning with a similar frame of mind.

You’ve pretty much summed up why he’s McInnes to me. I think Manning will learn a lot from his time here just as McInnes did, but in both cases I fear these lessons will come as a result of reflection after leaving rather than learning on the job.

As a club I simply don’t think we are geared up for a young progressive manager because of the leadership. And the irony is they are desperate to do it with a young progressive manager.

7 minutes ago, Riaz said:

The guy being led out by loads of stewards. Had blonde hair. 
 

I saw another guy telling everyone he was a city fan. Maybe your on about him 

He’d be a very strange Leeds fan as I’ve seen him dozens of times over the past couple of years. 

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Pearson 46 * 18 / 14 = 59, but an expectation of improvement with players returning from injury 

Manning 17 / 15 * 30 (games under him) = 34 plus the 21 points that he started with = 55 with those players back.

But one less win is a regression, especially against an expectation of progression.

But I can’t be arsed to put too much effort into the debate tonight!

It’s incredible it’s a debate davefevs. It should be a resounding acceptance of a shocker tonight - which can happen, that’s fine - what’s not fine is having no attempt at an answer. If it wasn’t for an excellent performance from Max that was a cricket score tonight. 

And for all the Max doubters, for him to bounce back from Cov with a game like that… well played that man 

6 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

What's changed? We now look very well coached. Not my words by the way. 

Leeds looked very well coached in how to beat us and our system that’s for sure.
 

‘They aren’t comfortable on the ball so put them under pressure; there are gaps all over the pitch with how they set up so run into space, and when they attack just block off the passing option’. 

1 minute ago, Silvio Dante said:

I think the day is coming soon, as a lot have been dancing round it, when a LM stay/go thread is put out there in view of performances. I’m kind of sick of the “he’s not got his players” or “give him time” arguments.

I’m clear that the review point is end of season (and for avoidance of doubt if no discernable improvement I’d bin him then based on current trajectory as I don’t think there would be a compelling reason to give him funds), but Duff got sacked by Swansea after this number of games. Unlike 10 years ago, we all see every game - the pressure comes quicker. And to be clear that isn’t again a Nige vs Liam thing, it’s a “you took over a playoff contender and what did you do” thing 

Yeah sacking any time soon would be baffling. As another poster mentioned as a club we’ve clearly decided we’re safe this season and are eyeing up the next by the way we’ve acted during the window - and I don’t disagree with our approach necessarily. 

But I need to see him be more proactive and reactionary. It’s going to take some tremendous bad form for us not to start next season with him in charge, and I think he gets the chance to bring in players that suit the budget and improve the squad, but I wouldn’t give him many chances if we start next season badly and he hasn’t shown more ability to impact a game before then. 

5 minutes ago, SydneyCity said:

Manning is O'Driscoll.

 

For me, he’s Derek McInnes 

4 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Bang on. I've quoted this previously. It isn't about Nige or Liam loving. It's what the board said when making the change that irritates me claiming that we were top end challengers this season. 

Agree but again I don’t think that needs to flavour the debate about Manning. 

I don’t and never did expect him to get us top six and I dismiss that as even a possibility. 

But I absolutely expect him to set us up to be competitive in every game, and at home set us up to have a fighting chance to win. 

He gets a big fat F tonight regardless of who came before him, what the board said, and the fact he didn’t change it in the first half concerns me. That he didn’t change during the half time break concerns me, that his reaction was to stick with the same approach but to remove wells and bring on / move players to their natural position (arguments on that front because I think his general playing patters and formation aren’t natural to our squad), but keep the same approach that Leeds had completely nullified, concerns me. 

He has really left himself open to criticism tonight and if I was BT I would want to be with him for his post-game analysis/review for him to explain some of his in game decisions and thoughts. Because that wasn’t good enough and he’s had a really bad night at the office. 

2 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

100% agree. I hate the ppg Pearson/Manning comparisons but the board did bring it in themselves. As you rightly say, it’s about whether Liam was/is good enough and the conversation needs to be around that.

Oh I agree, it’s the tribalism that’s stifling the ability to listen. Certain posters are living or dying by the sword and being dismissive of what should be to all a really concerning home performance where we were utterly outplayed and our reaction was to change personnel and not approach. That to me is a really concerning sign. 

1 minute ago, Red Skin said:

Manning tried 2 up front today which many have been calling. 

No he didn’t. He might have played two forwards, but he did not play two up front; he did not change the formation; he just put a square peg in a round hole. 

It’s incredibly frustrating that commentary on tonight has reverted to Liam Manning v Nigel Pearson. 

This has nothing to do with which camp you are in. It’s just the observation that the team performed crap tonight (Max O Leary aside) and the weakest performance unfortunately was from the manager. 

That has nothing to do with Nigel Pearson and by calling it out is not harking back to a love affair with the predecessor. This ain’t the time for comparing records or calling out the board, I think it’s the time for calling out ‘Manning you lost us 3 points tonight for setting us up very poorly and not having the nouse to change it’. 

it’s not about harking back to the past, it’s about being concerned for the future now. 

16 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

Conway were looked extremely frustrated at times as a result.

I ain’t surprised he has (clearly) decided to move on. He’s been starved of service, he’s had to create his own chances and goals, and his reward tonight was being shunted to a wide forward, and him a Pring looked on completely different wavelengths, unsurprisingly. He got treated like he’s Harry Cornick for 60 minutes. 

3 minutes ago, Leabrook said:

We got dominated under Pearson at times as well. It’s just the same now and will probably be the same for a long time. We go through good patches, average patches and bad patches and finish mid table 

He hasn’t got the contract though so what on earth are you on about?!

You’re right we did. And Leeds are a bloody good side and worked out high press and quick turnovers and were absolutely up the creek without a paddle. 

As said in a separate post I can accept losing, but to not change our approach in game was extremely worrying, and like I said sticking Conway out wide for an hour was beyond excuse. 

1 minute ago, Leabrook said:

It’s not better or worse. It’s just different. 

If Max wasn’t man of the match that was a cricket score. The result flattered us massively. It is worse. That’s not even really up for debate. Losing is fine, being so inept is not. 

That was absolutely dreadful though and the OP is right to call out we have plan A and only plan A; a system that does not suit our squad at all. And Conway as a wide man is absolutely baffling, completely unjustifiable over-tinkering and makes me question his common sense let alone in game management to leave it so for an hour. 

Many more games like that and he’s going to lose the fan base. He’s got to move away from this system. It’s like SC dogmatically sticking with his when we came up. 

8 minutes ago, mason said:

When a new manager rebuilds he hopes to bring in his players to play his type of game/plan, this is restricted by his employees who dont always want to back their choice of manager;

Some fans live in hope that somehow words alone can get us to the top div, forgetting that only money can do that.

Income from many prev transfers are set aside to cover losses,.... i.e prev poor choices from those employers, while fans yet again are fed hope and words alone and the round-a-bout turns again as we stand still.

You can’t rebuild in the championship though as your average tenure is 18 months. And you’ll lose your best players because they’ll get picked off for big money as chairmen can’t turn down bids due to FFP. 

it is such a poisoned chalice this league. That’s why I don’t like possession based teams; possession based sides with parachute payments - for sure; if you aren’t that you have to play differently in this league. Two horrible centre half’s, one maverick in the middle and a deadly pace merchant up top, Thats the recipe for getting yourselves in the mix for a playoff lottery. I truly believe otherwise you’re in a win/lose/draw cycle  

If Manning thinks he can rebuild he’s been sold a lie (and I think he has to be honest). He needs 5 years to go and get the best out of league one and two, to train them at the HPC (that’s what Tinnion wanted) and for us not to sell them. That’s pie in the sky. We’ll sell. Like we did semenyo, Webster, Scott. 

whats the point in a ‘training ground manager’ if you’re just going to rip the carpet from under their feet every window?

I can’t say I’m enamoured yet. In the cup against big opposition it’s undeniable we’ve done exceptionally well.

I think Forest contributed to a really thrilling game because they didn’t want a replay so they encouraged us to go blow-for-blow. 

But then I watch the League games and I am reminded of Lee Johnson. Not necessarily in style, but in approach. And the approach is thinking you can install a Pep style of play with Salford standard players (I’m deliberately using hyperbole here).

It is something I think most modern managers are guilty of and most fans are guilty of. They see what the best can do but forget pragmatism. Style over substance. If you want to progress from the championship you don’t actually have time to install that style of play unless you’re a parachute club. You need to do a Luton or a Blackpool and play pragmatic football. In the championship as a manager you do exceptionally well to last 3 years - you’ll be one of the longest serving - whilst losing your best players each 6 months at worst , 12 months at very best.
 

Don’t fall into the trap you can coach your way there. You can’t, you won’t have the time or the stability. 
 

Modern managers try and get you playing a particular style but that takes investment which FFP no longer allows. 

And that’s why I’m not sure Manning is going to work. We gave Lee longer than we should have - based on spend - for romanticism. But Manning wont get that. 

If you exclude the parachute clubs going back up, it’s the elder statesman and pragmatic managers that get you out of this league. Generally. 
 

and just to add in league one a few technically gifted players can make alll the difference to you being a great footballing side on the eye, but that doesn’t cut it in this league as they’ll be average. The league one to championship gulf is absolutely massive in that in league one 3-4 quality players will get you playoffs, in this league you need 7-8 to achieve the same. And I think that leads to managers from league one being overrated. 

2 minutes ago, Redrascal2 said:

Lansdown should have backed Liam Manning in this window. Playing some really good football but need someone to score the goals. Manning has done his bit but as usual Lansdown has failed to do his.

I’d be a lot more cautious. I’m seeing some positive shoots but we are a long way away - notwithstanding a great team performance tonight. Let’s not do an MA and a backing of LJ just too early though. I’m glad Manning is having to prove himself over more than a dozen games before he gets a war chest. This is the highest level he’s ever managed and for me he’s still not showing he’s able to be flexible or showing very good in-game management skills. 
 

I am not being critical, I’m just asking him to show a bit more nouse before he gets trusted with too much. This season hinges on the forest replay as we aren’t going up and aren’t going down. The only money he gets -imo - should be if there’s a player that has is available at a reasonable fee,or if we want to tread water and give him a marquee loan player to see what he can do.

Given that marquee is likely to be a striker - because we need goals - and would likely block Tommy, a depreciating asset who ain’t renewing, 

9 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Personally I'd start with Cornick as the lone striker. I think he is the most physical striker we've got. Whilst he may not be a clinical finisher. I think his all round game is better suited to the lone striker role than it is for Conway or Bell. 

He will battle for every single ball. He isn't afraid to get physical and he works his arse off. 

I don’t think the type of striker is the problem, it’s how you feed the striker. For me XG and all the data analytics is killing football. Pre-nerds, generally you shoot on sight. Then analytics came in and it was ‘oh you’re better off shooting from this position so try and fashion it’. 

What that approach completely misses is compound effect. If you have an XG of say .33 in one position, improving XG dictates you try to create a better chance. but most footballers outside the elite just aren’t that capable.

for me how is the current approach  better if 9/10 you don’t create a better chance, which is often the case for non-elite players. For me the answer is it ain’t and you’re better off taking more lower XG chances than you are overplaying and losing the ball or the chance altogether. Football has been massively over complicated. 

1 minute ago, joe jordans teeth said:

Modern football is crap let’s be honest,bloody hate scousers but give me a Liverpool over Man City every day of the week if I had to watch a game on a Sunday 

Same here. So many try to clone Man City’s way of playing when in reality it takes a £billion to get players capable of passing triangles and close control around the box. I don’t get why teams up and down the land try to persevere with it, and forget Liverpool aside the only team who knocked Man City off their perch were an all action Leicester. 

4 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Who played one season above League One in his whole career..

I think that likely had more to do with a reluctance to move club than a limitation of ability to be fair. 

Plus I’m not sure the disparity in wages between leagues was necessarily there at the time. I can see why at that time in his shoes being paid well and being a fans favourite was worth more than upheaving family, relocating and gambling on fitting in for probably a relatively modest wage rise. 

6 minutes ago, YorkshireSection said:

He (Bell) seems to make the wrong decision, he lacks a final ball and takes a touch too many. We are lacking someone who could whip a ball in like his DAD.

I think the wrong decisions are coming from how he’s being asked to play. Right now he’s meant to be an impact player. He made impact when he came into the side because his remit was ‘run towards goal and swing your boot’ and he created chaos. Obviously you’re never going to be a starter playing like that, but he needed /needs to get that freedom again, whilst on the training ground trying to finesse him. Right now he’s ineffective as a sub and surely draining confidence.