dezgimed

Us Brits do love a bit of mawkish third hand sentimentality. Tell people someone's a hero often enough and they'll eventually believe it. I'd love to know how much of the moral indignation directed at negative posts on this thread are a result of recent Wikipedia sessions, as opposed to genuine empathy with South Africa's turbulent past.

The facts of Mandela's terrorist leanings are still facts, even if some try to interpret them otherwise (hilariously)

Back to sticking fingers in ears and lalalalala-ing when anyone offers a different opinion all you Nelson fans!

And what, precisely, is your agenda? Anything to do with the AWB, perhaps?

I don't have one.

I don't have any political allegiance. I like to look at both sides of most things. In this case, I don't think you can say that he was 100% a Saint and a hero, I don't think his actions can be disputed.

We were talking about Church Street, Pretoria.  Do keep up.

And I'm referring to all the other civilian deaths and casualties at the hands of the group he founded. Feel free to ignore that fact if it doesnt suit YOUR agenda.

In Church Street, Pretoria?  Just the one I believe.

Other bombings occurred or so news reports would suggest.

I'll answer for him as it won't suir his agenda.  The bombing was 20th May 1983, Mandela was released from prison on the 11th February 1990.

Just the one was it?

I tried to make a similar point but was told its all racist right wing lies.

This is a result of his peacefull actions, this girl is an inspiration.

She is awesome is she not?

Where is the racism in what I posted?

Sorry just spotted the poster. The convert, the defender of the indefensible.

No, you're the one changing history.  Presumably you also find the actions of the French resistance and various other resistance movements of the 2nd world war unjustifiable too?

Where did I say it wasn't justified?

Wow, disappointing that people are bringing this stuff up in a discussion honouring the man's death.

 

Of course Mandela co-founded the ANC's military wing, and its fight against the evil regime sometimes resorted to violence. You see this as a bad thing? As someone else alluded to, for Mandela to renounce the violence of the ANC would be akin to the French Resistance rolling over for Hitler. It is no different. In both cases sadly, blood was shed, but good triumphed over bad.

 

And Jerry Dammers got to write one of his catchiest tunes!

 

RIP

Of course the greater outcome was positive but you cannot praise somebody who shed the blood of innocents in the process, without being called up on it.

No, but apparently you are

Ok you win, he DIDN'T co-found that group and they DIDN'T commit terrorist acts (sorry, didn't fight for freedom).

Congratulations, you just changed history!

Des,you can throw as many right wing conservative opinions at me as you like, the fact is they're tainted by the political slant of the authors. Feel free to believe them.

 

Please see post # 70 for my thoughts on NM and terrorism.

I respect your opinion but imprisoned or not, I don't think an individual can be associated (founding) with such a group, with his wife etc and then completely condemn all their actions. Bit too idealistic for me.

Yes, it's a right wing american website which has an agenda and hence has no value whatsoever.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/africa/item/15888-saint-mandela-not-so-fast

http://thebackbencher.co.uk/3-things-you-didnt-want-to-know-about-nelson-mandela/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_National_Congress

http://ajmacdonaldjr.wordpress.com/2013/06/22/nelson-mandela-the-man-and-the-myth/

Etc etc.

Are you really that naive?

http://americanfreepress.net/?p=11873

Any thoughts on this?

What actions exactly are you referring to ?

Is that a joke?

Excellent decision.

Diabolical end record with Doncaster, awful record with us.

Attrocious football for 10 months, just wasnt working. Results improved, performances didnt.

Bad for our rep and we look like a laughing stock but had to be done.

And no different to an accountant employed by Tescos.

Guess so.

Wasn't the leader of the CSF a bank manager?

And? They're puppets to a Central team. No different to a floor manager in Tescos.

Ha Ha, talk about stereotyping.

 

So from your theory all City fans from an estate are potential trouble makes and not very bright?

No, that isnt what I said.

I was stereotyping those arrested.

Show me 16 doctors, lawyers, accountants etc among them and I'll show you a liar.

I've been going down to city for 40 years, I've been all over the world following england, I've found myself in some sticky situations home and away, I've met hundreds of fans both of our club and others, some have been lets say active in football hooliganism over the years some have tried it when younger some came into it later some have never been involved at all but one thing is true they come from all aspects of the social spectrum from sink estate kids to company directors, 99% of people I've met and indeed still know are intelligent rational and passionate about football, sure there are some with low intelligence but equally not everyone who sits in the stands peacefully are Einstein are they?

To generalise that all those who get involved in such antics as the lowest common denominator is just ignorance.

It might not be right it might not be acceptable but it's been part of the fabric of football since the late 60s.

Remember anyone can be a 'company director' if they've registered a company. But anyway...

No I agree about the Einstein point, but I don't think it works in complete opposites. It may be the case in your experience of 40 years that clever and high powered people were involved but I wouldnt have thought it was the case these days.

I still expect the majority are your estate kids etc as you put it.

That's the biggest load of s**te ive read on this thread. I honestly believe you have no idea what you are talking about.

Why?

I've given my rationale, give yours.

Ok let me try and explain it very clearly.

I know several people who have been involved in such incidents in the past, and none of them are very bright.

I know several people who have been to hundreds of football matches home and away and never had any problems, and they have good jobs and have done well for themselves.

FFS would you expect your board of directors or company secretary to go off on weekends getting arrested because of football altercations?

Just think about it. There is a very common theme with the offenders and their apologists 99% of the time. Perhaps it isnt the case this time, who knows.

Oh dear - and there was me thinking football "hooligans" had the stereotype of being 40's+ and holding down decent jobs

Its just nonsense, all of this. Stop defending this rubbish.

Do any of them have successful careers/lives? Find it hard to believe.

Heres a thought, go to a football match, enjoy yourself, but don't give it the big I am trying to act like a tough guy, showing off to your mates and then blaming the police when you get a telling off or whatever it is the lower class do.

I suspect the IQ of those arrested/in trouble is pretty low and no doubt they think the police are scum and blah de blah.

Usual chav nonsense.