Orr Substitution

[BS3_RED]

I have been thinking about this now since Wembley and can not work out how that substitution was every going to work.

Surely i would have made more sense to bring on Vasko at Centre back and put Carey at right back, than to upset our midfield as well as our defence by moving Elliot to right back.

If we had just moved Carey over for Vasko then we would have kept the same midfield that had looked so good for the last 5 games and Carey used to play at right back, so would have been a better option than Elliot there anyway.

I just feel that that substitution changed our game for the worse and i never felt confident after it.

[BS10 RED]

I have been thinking about this now since Wembley and can not work out how that substitution was every going to work.

Surely i would have made more sense to bring on Vasko at Centre back and put Carey at right back, than to upset our midfield as well as our defence by moving Elliot to right back.

If we had just moved Carey over for Vasko then we would have kept the same midfield that had looked so good for the last 5 games and Carey used to play at right back, so would have been a better option than Elliot there anyway.

I just feel that that substitution changed our game for the worse and i never felt confident after it.

I agree with what your saying but apparently Elliot used to play right back and that's the position he in played in the fa cup final. Maybe gj thought Carey and Fontaine in the centre was a better partnership then Fontaine and Vasko

[SyntaxtheRed]

I thought Elliott did well in that position, we certainly missed him in the middle though.

[headhunter]

I thought the same but then when was the last time Vasko and Fontaine had played as a central pair?

Carey and Fontaine were our strength at the start of the season and to keep them intact against Windass and Campbell probably made sense.

I think Elliott played at right back for Millwall in the 04 Final and to be fair in the opening 30 mins he had reverted back to the mediocrity he had shown proir to his mini-rest period.

[wiggles]

I have been thinking about this now since Wembley and can not work out how that substitution was every going to work.

Surely i would have made more sense to bring on Vasko at Centre back and put Carey at right back, than to upset our midfield as well as our defence by moving Elliot to right back.

If we had just moved Carey over for Vasko then we would have kept the same midfield that had looked so good for the last 5 games and Carey used to play at right back, so would have been a better option than Elliot there anyway.

I just feel that that substitution changed our game for the worse and i never felt confident after it.

Carey to RB and Vasko in the middle was certainly the more logical move, but as I've just put on the Vasko thread, I think it had more to do with getting Johnson on the pitch, who many would argue we have hugely missed in the run in.

I had the same concern that we wouldn't win any ball in midfield, but to be honest I don't think that was the case. It also allowed us to go three at the back late on, as Elliot moved back into midfield.

In summary, I think GJ got it right, again!

[Slave to the rhythm]

Carey to RB and Vasko in the middle was certainly the more logical move, but as I've just put on the Vasko thread, I think it had more to do with getting Johnson on the pitch, who many would argue we have hugely missed in the run in.

I had the same concern that we wouldn't win any ball in midfield, but to be honest I don't think that was the case. It also allowed us to go three at the back late on, as Elliot moved back into midfield.

In summary, I think GJ got it right, again!

As we lost the game and LJ made little impact after he came on, how can you possibly say that GJ got it right?

[wiggles]

As we lost the game and LJ made little impact after he came on, how can you possibly say that GJ got it right?

I don't think the substitution made any difference to losing the game, a lack of a genuine goalscorer did that (and we don't have one on the bench either).

As for LJ's contribution, I'm not totally convinced by him, but it is true that many people think we missed him during our poor run in, and I can understand GJ wanting to get him on the pitch as he is more creative with his passing than Elliot.

[Tales From The Front]

Carey to RB and Vasko in the middle was certainly the more logical move, but as I've just put on the Vasko thread, I think it had more to do with getting Johnson on the pitch, who many would argue we have hugely missed in the run in.

I had the same concern that we wouldn't win any ball in midfield, but to be honest I don't think that was the case. It also allowed us to go three at the back late on, as Elliot moved back into midfield.

In summary, I think GJ got it right, again!

Had Vasko been on the pitch the deperate measure of the long ball that had to be used at the death could potentialy have been more succesful. I don't think it was a good idea to put a box to box midfielder at right back irespective of his past experience at Millwall. If anything putting Carey there would have made more sense as he weas trying to drive the tream forward from defence. I also think that taking Carle off was a mistake as well not utilising Ivan Sproule enough when he came on and he got around the back of Hull on a couple of occassions.

I happen to think the team became more balanced in the final couple of weeks of the season and Carle made a hugh difference in th emiddle of the pitch and gave Elliott some much needed support and addtional drive.

But at the end of it all, it's all what ifs and maybe's but nevertheless a huge deal of gratitude and pride goes to all the staff and players at City for a remarkable season. It certainly will not get any easier but hopefully with the cash gernerated, somebody posted £2m from Saturday plus the season ticket sales, there will be further investment in the squad. The challange is to maintain and improve on this season and push on and finaly prove so many people wrong.

[bh_red]

personally I think GJ made the right move.

Vasko's defensive skills haven't been the best on occasions this season and he hasn't played I believe since his stinker at Cardiff, personally I think our back centre to were the key on saturday and GJ didn't want to weaken it, by moving Carey out of position and putting a potential liablity in Vasko in defence.

Made more sense to keep the back solid with Elliott there, both LJ and Carle have good defensive capablities, especailly Carle, EVEN with hindsight I still believe he right change was made.

[BS3_RED]

personally I think GJ made the right move.

Vasko's defensive skills haven't been the best on occasions this season and he hasn't played I believe since his stinker at Cardiff, personally I think our back centre to were the key on saturday and GJ didn't want to weaken it, by moving Carey out of position and putting a potential liablity in Vasko in defence.

Made more sense to keep the back solid with Elliott there, both LJ and Carle have good defensive capablities, especailly Carle, EVEN with hindsight I still believe he right change was made.

I usually agree with you BH but i have to ask, when was the last time you saw Lee Johnson make a tackle?

[bcfcas1]

As we lost the game and LJ made little impact after he came on, how can you possibly say that GJ got it right?

Would you say we dominated large parts of the game? IMO we did and LJ had a big role in that, did you not notice he was always near the ball, always on hand supporting other players and keeping the midfield ticking over, picking it up out of defense. It was not the midfields fault we didn't score, we had chances, good ones, what was lacking is what has been lacking all season, don't get that confused with a bad substitution

[wiggles]

I usually agree with you BH but i have to ask, when was the last time you saw Lee Johnson make a tackle?

That's my big concern with LJ, I think he contributes nothing when we don't have the ball. Elliott does a huge amount of his work when they play together.

[Spike]

I have been thinking about this now since Wembley and can not work out how that substitution was every going to work.

Surely i would have made more sense to bring on Vasko at Centre back and put Carey at right back, than to upset our midfield as well as our defence by moving Elliot to right back.

If we had just moved Carey over for Vasko then we would have kept the same midfield that had looked so good for the last 5 games and Carey used to play at right back, so would have been a better option than Elliot there anyway.

I just feel that that substitution changed our game for the worse and i never felt confident after it.

Elliot is a bit quicker than Carey and better suited for right back imo. The last thing we wanted to do at that point was give them confidence to run at us down the wing. Elliot was the right choice and considering we layed 45 mins of solid attacking football the defence wasn't the problem nor the midfield... it was the finishing which let us down as always

[bh_red]

I usually agree with you BH but i have to ask, when was the last time you saw Lee Johnson make a tackle?

since he's barely played lately I can't remember, to be honest though we all know that tackling is a weak part of his game, but he does make his fair share, unfortunately though he's very much a "Paul Scholes" when he does tackle because they are normally late, for a little man he's a brave player I feel.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

I have been thinking about this now since Wembley and can not work out how that substitution was every going to work.

Surely i would have made more sense to bring on Vasko at Centre back and put Carey at right back, than to upset our midfield as well as our defence by moving Elliot to right back.

If we had just moved Carey over for Vasko then we would have kept the same midfield that had looked so good for the last 5 games and Carey used to play at right back, so would have been a better option than Elliot there anyway.

I just feel that that substitution changed our game for the worse and i never felt confident after it.

I think the real issue is why the City physio missed a very serious injury. Bradley's cheek was broken and his eye socket was broken in three places for heaven's sake, yet the physio stuck a plaster on him and sent him back onto the field. If I were Lansdown and Johnson I would be asking very serious questions about the standard of our medical team. The injury should have been spotted and the substitution made immediately. Given that we were 0-0 at the time, Johnson may well have made a different substitution. Water under the bridge now, I know, but I wouldn't want to see it happen again.

[0738parkway]

I usually agree with you BH but i have to ask, when was the last time you saw Lee Johnson make a tackle?

different players have different strenghts l, johnson is not in the side to make tackles , he s there to try to create ,

[Tales From The Front]

different players have different strenghts l, johnson is not in the side to make tackles , he s there to try to create ,

Agreed and he is good (most of the time) on the ball, but off it I'm not so sure. My view is we have looked far more solid and combative with Elliott and Carle. If Carle can add a few goals to his game, then that is as good a central midfield as I can remember.

The issue on Saturday was that we did not get behind Hull enough byt played to much football in front of them. But that is yesterday we now have to move on and forward.

[Pooki]

Can't see why anyone is bothered about the substitution can't see it had any bearing on the result

Let's move on now .... what happened cant be changed .. what is about to come can be

[formerly known as ivan]

the orr substitution didnt surprise me, what did surprise me was bringing on byfield and not vasko to play up front.

when your chasing a game with 15 mins to go and its obvious your going to be lumping balls into the box, surely vasko would of been the better option. just look at the chance byfield headed over. vasko with his size would of got a better contact onto it (thats not to say he would of scored) and also the trunde header that went wide, again you would expect someone of vaskos stature to of done better.

[BS3_RED]

different players have different strenghts l, johnson is not in the side to make tackles , he s there to try to create ,

Ok, so when was the last time he had an assist in open play?

[Roger Red Hat]

the orr substitution didnt surprise me, what did surprise me was bringing on byfield and not vasko to play up front.

when your chasing a game with 15 mins to go and its obvious your going to be lumping balls into the box, surely vasko would of been the better option. just look at the chance byfield headed over. vasko with his size would of got a better contact onto it (thats not to say he would of scored) and also the trunde header that went wide, again you would expect someone of vaskos stature to of done better.

You are assuming of course, that Vasko,(a centre half), would have taken up the same positions as the two forwards you mention.

[yeovilred]

I think the real issue is why the City physio missed a very serious injury. Bradley's cheek was broken and his eye socket was broken in three places for heaven's sake, yet the physio stuck a plaster on him and sent him back onto the field. If I were Lansdown and Johnson I would be asking very serious questions about the standard of our medical team. The injury should have been spotted and the substitution made immediately. Given that we were 0-0 at the time, Johnson may well have made a different substitution. Water under the bridge now, I know, but I wouldn't want to see it happen again.

You have hit the nail on the head cje we were sat near Bradley and could tell he was completely out of it after he came back on

[Spud55]

I think he made the correct decision, i think in reality it's farr less likely to be costly to upset a midfield and loose arguably your best central midfielder, when you have good cover than to upset the defence, put your best centre back at right back and bring on someone who hasn't performed anywhere near the same level.

Elliot has been generally very good in midfield Johnson has been good, whereas Carey has been immense in defence and Vasko had been either good or woeful.

Made sense as a re-shuffle to me, although i would have thrown on Vasko instead of Byfield.