BS3_RED Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 I now have to agree with our Ipswich friends that said he looks so much better in the middle than out wide. He kept coming in to the middle loads today and really looked good when he did. I would have taken Jonhson off and put Williams in the middle rather take Williams off. Williams always looked to put players through everytime he had the ball, something our midfield has been missing for a couple of seasons now. If he can get (Johnson) fit, i really think he could be an exellent partner for Marv in the middle. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sodburyred Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 I now have to agree with our Ipswich friends that said he looks so much better in the middle than out wide. He kept coming in to the middle loads today and really looked good when he did. I would have taken Jonhson off and put Williams in the middle rather take Williams off. Williams always looked to put players through everytime he had the ball, something our midfield has been missing for a couple of seasons now. If he can get (Johnson) fit, i really think he could be an exellent partner for Marv in the middle. Thoughts? Agree completely! After watching him at blackpool i thought he was fairly average. But he now looks to be a steal at the rate he keeps improving! Would love to see him play in the middle with Elliot! But i just cant see it ever happening while LJ is fit and available! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Zeppelin Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 Williams always looked to put players through everytime he had the ball, something our midfield has been missing for a couple of seasons now. That description fits Lee Johnson just as well, if not better. Even though Williams didn't do a lot wrong, he was a passenger today and added very little. Most of all, he couldn't match LJ's work rate and grass coverage which is rivalled only by Marvin Elliot, but goes unnoticed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS3_RED Posted August 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 Agree completely! After watching him at blackpool i thought he was fairly average. But he now looks to be a steal at the rate he keeps improving! Would love to see him play in the middle with Elliot! But i just cant see it ever happening while LJ is fit and available! That can be easily sorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS3_RED Posted August 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 That description fits Lee Johnson just as well, if not better. Even though Williams didn't do a lot wrong, he was a passenger today and added very little. Disagree. What Lee does is play a easy early ball between the defence and the midfield. That is why when Lee doesnt play our defenders start to hoof it. I have very rarely seen Lee play the ball between defenders for our forwards to get on too. Have a look at how many assists Lee has in open play, its not many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Zeppelin Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 Disagree. What Lee does is play a easy early ball between the defence and the midfield. That is why when Lee doesnt play our defenders start to hoof it. I have very rarely seen Lee play the ball between defenders for our forwards to get on too. Have a look at how many assists Lee has in open play, its not many. I've seen him do exactly that many times. Each to their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuedgeRed Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 Showed some good touches again today. Play him in the middle IMO. To say he 'added very little' is harsh as it was great interplay between him and Wilson that made the tap-in for Maynard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezgimed Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 Disagree. What Lee does is play a easy early ball between the defence and the midfield. That is why when Lee doesnt play our defenders start to hoof it. I have very rarely seen Lee play the ball between defenders for our forwards to get on too. Have a look at how many assists Lee has in open play, its not many. Uhuh, exactly. Unfortunately people think spectacular balls out wide and to our own defenders add value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double-trouble Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 Showed some good touches again today. Play him in the middle IMO. To say he 'added very little' is harsh as it was great interplay between him and Wilson that made the tap-in for Maynard. Agree ran the channel well and a ball perfectly weighted for Wilson and the set up . Taking nothing away , Derby did not pick up runners most of the match and finding space is a little more difficult than being given space . Great first half team performance , we will play worst and win a game . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tunley Legend Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 That description fits Lee Johnson just as well, if not better. Even though Williams didn't do a lot wrong, he was a passenger today and added very little. Most of all, he couldn't match LJ's work rate and grass coverage which is rivalled only by Marvin Elliot, but goes unnoticed. Work rate and grass coverage? What the f00k is that all about? Was it "work rate and grass coverage" that put Brian Wilson in to set up the goal? No it bl00dy wasn't - it was a moment of real quality from Gavin Williams that's what. The boy is a footballer - he knows how to weight a pass and he won't surrender possession cheaply in the middle of the park. But then why do we want that qaulity when we can have two headless chickens surrendering possession repeatedly but at least tracking back and providing good grass coverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex_BCFC Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 I'd really like to see Williams take LJ's place as he is much better in the centre. Sadly it will never happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Zeppelin Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 Work rate and grass coverage? What the f00k is that all about? Was it "work rate and grass coverage" that put Brian Wilson in to set up the goal? No it bl00dy wasn't - it was a moment of real quality from Gavin Williams that's what. The boy is a footballer - he knows how to weight a pass and he won't surrender possession cheaply in the middle of the park. But then why do we want that qaulity when we can have two headless chickens surrendering possession repeatedly but at least tracking back and providing good grass coverage. What the f00k is workrate all about you ask? Some people have been crying out for Noble in the middle instead of Johnson over the seasons, but he wouldn't provide a quarter of the amount of effort Johnson does all over the pitch. I agree that Williams and Noble may have more creativity and guile to their game than LJ, but Johnson's hard work and yes, grass coverage (that's coverage of the whole pitch yes?) is very much taken for granted and thankless. Whack Noble or Williams in the middle (even though Williams works harder than Noble) and you would probably get more going forward, but far less going back. It just irritates me when Johnson has been playing well and with confidence in the opening two games, but after his poor mistake today, all the lad's confidence was gone in a shot. The regulars were right on his back again whenever he played the ball, and he became nervous which affected his game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sodburyred Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 What the f00k is workrate all about you ask? Some people have been crying out for Noble in the middle instead of Johnson over the seasons, but he wouldn't provide a quarter of the amount of effort Johnson does all over the pitch. I agree that Williams and Noble may have more creativity and guile to their game than LJ, but Johnson's hard work and yes, grass coverage (that's coverage of the whole pitch yes?) is very much taken for granted and thankless. Whack Noble or Williams in the middle (even though Williams works harder than Noble) and you would probably get more going forward, but far less going back. It just irritates me when Johnson has been playing well and with confidence in the opening two games, but after his poor mistake today, all the lad's confidence was gone in a shot. The regulars were right on his back again whenever he played the ball, and he became nervous which affected his game. I rate LJ. I have always stuck up for him when my city supporting mates give him stick! But I have not been impressed with his contribution so far this season! He hasnt really done anything wrong, today was just unfortunate! But in my opinion williams would add more creativity and attacking threat to the team! he has also shown hes not scared to get stuck in! I think he would be a big asset to the club as a centre midfielder! Just my opinion though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tunley Legend Posted August 17, 2008 Report Share Posted August 17, 2008 What the f00k is workrate all about you ask? Some people have been crying out for Noble in the middle instead of Johnson over the seasons, but he wouldn't provide a quarter of the amount of effort Johnson does all over the pitch. I agree that Williams and Noble may have more creativity and guile to their game than LJ, but Johnson's hard work and yes, grass coverage (that's coverage of the whole pitch yes?) is very much taken for granted and thankless. Whack Noble or Williams in the middle (even though Williams works harder than Noble) and you would probably get more going forward, but far less going back. It just irritates me when Johnson has been playing well and with confidence in the opening two games, but after his poor mistake today, all the lad's confidence was gone in a shot. The regulars were right on his back again whenever he played the ball, and he became nervous which affected his game. I don't know what standard of football you have played but I can assure you that it is far easier work for everyone if your team does not give the ball away. The amount of "grass coverage" required reduces along with the requirement to run round like a headless chicken trying to get back the ball you have just sloppily handed to the opposition. In my opinion, regardless of his relationship with the manager, somebody else should be given the centre of midfield berth alongside Cole Skuse at Coventry on Saturday. That doesn't mean I hate Lee Johnson, or pick on him or want him out of the club or anything else. That is my honest opinion on a FOOTBALL FORUM based upon what I have seen and read over the last few weeks and if none of us is allowed that then we may as well shut the forum down communist style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meh Posted August 17, 2008 Report Share Posted August 17, 2008 Posted following the Royal Antwerp game by myself :- He struck me as a player who would revel in the middle with either Skuse or Elliot doing the lion's share of the breaking up the ball, but, Williams certainly gets in, just lacks a bit of pace. He has great awareness such as the build up to Maynard's second goal and likes to get in to the final 3rd. However, this would of course mean taking LJ out of the team with a middle 4 something like McIndoe Skuse Williams Sproule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimplyRed Posted August 17, 2008 Report Share Posted August 17, 2008 I had my first view of Williams yesterday and, apart from his involvment in the goal, didn't do much to impress for me. He looks comfortable on the ball and can pass well, but he just didn't get involved enough for my liking. Whether that was due to his position remains to be seen and you can't judge a player on one game, so I'm happy to wait and see. As for Johnson, I thought he had a decent game. As a critic of his in the past, I thought he did ok. He was far too casual when he attempted the pass which went wrong and gifted them their goal, but on the whole, he earned his bread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meh Posted August 17, 2008 Report Share Posted August 17, 2008 but on the whole, he earned his bread. Sorry, but when your bread is hundreds, if not thousands per week and you fail to do a basic thing like get bl00dy rid when in your own area with bodies all around you, then the bread is not deserved. It was stupid and reckless and would be harshly criticised in the lowest standard Sunday league and rightly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted August 17, 2008 Report Share Posted August 17, 2008 I thought his best contributions were from the wing, curling, early, Beckhamesque crosses that caused problems every time. Maynard will get on the end of thise if they keep arriving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuedgeRed Posted August 17, 2008 Report Share Posted August 17, 2008 Sorry, but when your bread is hundreds, if not thousands per week and you fail to do a basic thing like get bl00dy rid when in your own area with bodies all around you, then the bread is not deserved. It was stupid and reckless and would be harshly criticised in the lowest standard Sunday league and rightly so. I have to agree. Passing to an opponent in your own penalty area that directly leads to a goal against and 2 points dropped is just not on. Regardless of who the player is, or how they have played previously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimplyRed Posted August 17, 2008 Report Share Posted August 17, 2008 Sorry, but when your bread is hundreds, if not thousands per week and you fail to do a basic thing like get bl00dy rid when in your own area with bodies all around you, then the bread is not deserved. It was stupid and reckless and would be harshly criticised in the lowest standard Sunday league and rightly so. Yes it was, but it was also a mistake - he didn't do it on purpose and his contribution to the game in general, apart from that, was better than that of Williams. I don't want to defend him because he has never been a player I've rated too highly, but to crucify him for a mistake which led to a goal is, IMO, is little unfair without looking at his contribution as a whole. There were several other players 'not on top of their game' today but, I suppose because their mistakes didn't lead to a goal, they get away with it, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meh Posted August 17, 2008 Report Share Posted August 17, 2008 I suppose because their mistakes didn't lead to a goal, they get away with it, right? You presume a bit too much with that statement. I thought McAllister was fairly poor, albeit, thunderous tackles at times. Weale should, by his own admission, have kept that shot out. McIndoe went off the boil in the second half and seemed to run up blind alleys in general, whilst Gavin tailed off quite considerably too. I am not somebody out to knock LJ at every opportunity (like many our and actually despise that sort of attitude). I genuinely appreciate some of his play and some quality passes, especially the one about midway through the first half when he missed out the two strikers, who appeared the obvious pass and spread it to the right side - don't even know how he saw that pass; split the defence wide open. But, I do think that Williams looks a better player for LJ's position and more likely to play the ball forward in to gaps for Maynard who will always look average when the majority of balls coming in are two foot above his head from the flanks. LJ plays very much side to side and at times, certainly as the game goes on, his short passing becomes telegraphed. Williams mixes it up better. Yesterday, McAllister got a roasting from both Millen and GJ when he pi$$ed about too much in his own area literally 5 minutes before LJ did the same, only more costly. The silence from the bench on this occasion was deafening IMHO; and spoke volumes about some preferential treatment. Understandable as this is the mans son, but, we could all see his confidence fade after that, however, he stayed on the pitch; maybe Williams should have stayed on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimplyRed Posted August 17, 2008 Report Share Posted August 17, 2008 You presume a bit too much with that statement. I thought McAllister was fairly poor, albeit, thunderous tackles at times. Weale should, by his own admission, have kept that shot out. McIndoe went off the boil in the second half and seemed to run up blind alleys in general, whilst Gavin tailed off quite considerably too. I am not somebody out to knock LJ at every opportunity (like many our and actually despise that sort of attitude). I genuinely appreciate some of his play and some quality passes, especially the one about midway through the first half when he missed out the two strikers, who appeared the obvious pass and spread it to the right side - don't even know how he saw that pass; split the defence wide open. But, I do think that Williams looks a better player for LJ's position and more likely to play the ball forward in to gaps for Maynard who will always look average when the majority of balls coming in are two foot above his head from the flanks. LJ plays very much side to side and at times, certainly as the game goes on, his short passing becomes telegraphed. Williams mixes it up better. Yesterday, McAllister got a roasting from both Millen and GJ when he pi$ed about too much in his own area literally 5 minutes before LJ did the same, only more costly. The silence from the bench on this occasion was deafening IMHO; and spoke volumes about some preferential treatment. Understandable as this is the mans son, but, we could all see his confidence fade after that, however, he stayed on the pitch; maybe Williams should have stayed on? ...and that's what I love about football. It's such a game of opinions. As I said in my first post on this thread, Williams didn't impress me but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, seeing as it's the first game I've seen him. Whether that's because he was not playing in his favoured position is not really relevant. He knew, when he signed, that he would be competing with Johnson, Elliott and Skuse for a place in the middle of the park. He needs to prove his worth wherever he plays. I thought Johnson contributed more, as a whole, than Williams and agreed with his substitution. As for McAllister, again I thought he was one of our better players on the day and, while he's prone to lapses in concentration (as is Carey), he generally earns his left back spot. As for the bench roasting various players for mistakes and the significant difference between McAllister's mistake and Johnson's mistake, I can't possibly comment! 1. Because I'm sat in the Williams and most of the time Millen and Johnson are hidden from my view behind the dugout, and 2. I don't usually take much notice of what goes on around the dugout anyway! But I can't say I particularly noticed Johnson fade afterwards - I thought the whole team did, until we started created chances again towards the end. It would be interesting to learn if any others thought that there was any disparity between the hair-dryer treatment McAllister got, compared to Johnson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edson Posted August 17, 2008 Report Share Posted August 17, 2008 It would be interesting to learn if any others thought that there was any disparity between the hair-dryer treatment McAllister got, compared to Johnson. Even if there was, it wouldn't necessarily be indicative of any favouritism. Gary Johnson has said many times that, to be a good man manager, you need to recognise players who need a kick up the backside and those who need an arm round them. Perhaps Lee responds better to an arm round him and McAllister to a verbal rocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted August 17, 2008 Report Share Posted August 17, 2008 Also it depends if the mistake was punished. If McAllister's was punished and Johnsons wasnt punished then it would have been different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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