Some Of You Lot Really Amaze Me,

[Jimmy]

There are a few things that i feel need to be said, primarily regarding DW.

First of all WHATEVER your opinion of DW he signed a 3 year contract extension last summer. That sentence makes fans opinions of his job security irrelevant - no questions asked. I'm not for one second asking people not to form opinions, opinions are great - if we all agreed what a boring place the world would be! However having said that what good, and for what purpose is all the over exagerated DW out talk.

Baring extreme naivity by the Bristol City board and Mr Lansdown their is only 1 way DW will leave the club without seeing out AT LEAST next year, that being he leaves to join another club and we get compensation. I'm not entirely sure how many times this fact needs to be pointed out to certain individuals before they grasp it.

Our apparent financial situation, as with the vast majority of Nationwide clubs, is/ (appears to be) an unfavourable one. So why exactly would we sack DW and be forced to pay him for the remainder of his contract, do the people who want him to be sacked think so little of the City board. Do you honestly believe that he would have been given a 3 year extension if he was to be placed in a promotion or sack scenario?

Second of all, this we are underachieving talk annoys me, although (and this will sound strange) to an extent i agree. In who's eyes are we exactly underachieving, after all we are better placed this year to gain automatic promotion than any year since we achieved it. The apparent underachievement is through the fans eyes, some of who feel we have the divine right to steam roller teams into submission before leaving this god for saken divison behind to be greated into divison one by a fanfare!

At the start of this season i thought that anything other than promotion would be an underachievement and i still do. Given that there are 2 games remaining and we are a point behind 2nd place, I'm not willing to throw in the automatic promotion towel just yet, let alone our chances of breaking our plaf-off voodoo at the expense of the very beatable Hartlepool, Swindon and Brighton.

I dont deny that some of DW's signings havent gone to plan. Luke Wilkshire has shown he can play but has been severly lacking form. Marc Goodfellow was the toast of the town after scoring the winner at Notts County and subsequently scoring a clutch of goals on arrival - now i see people describig him as a 'tart' - pathetic! Lee Miller has great potential but has so far failed to deliver, i remember reading after we signed him that he was recommended by a fan (or possibly a group of fans), well why dont we hang them up by their buster browns and give DW a break (please be aware this is sarcasm!)

The combination of TD and JB at the start of the season prooved to be a mistake, but hey managers make mistakes - it just so happens that when your Bristol City manager if you make such errors they are magnified ten times over.

I think people also fail to recognise that in recent years the club has been, perhaps not so much on the pitch but off it, rebuilding. In the last 5 years or so Scott Davidson has withdrawn financial backing, we've had the John Ward/Benny Lennartson situation, the Tony Pulis contract dibacle and amidst all this the club has been promoted, spent money we appear not to have had and come straight back down. We've also lost money on alot of our playing investments - Shaun Goater, Paul Agostino, Soren and Bo Anderson, Vlamos Sebok, Ivan Testimatanu and Tony Thorpe to name a few.

I'm not trying to be 'happy clappy' (it appears that is the name anybody who doesnt slate DW falls under) I'm simply frustrated by the number of fans who feel the solution to all the clubs problems is to sack the manager. I'm not especially a DW fan, however I'm far from the apparent logic of many who think ousting him is the best way forward for the club on the whole.

Danny Wilson and Steve Lansdown have stabilised this club significantly over the past few years and i dont think they get as much credit as they deserve for it. We all want to see promotion, ill personally be devestated if we dont achieve it however i, unlike many, can take a step back and see that not only is sacking DW not feeisble financially but it is extremely unlikely considering the contract he was offered last summer.

[Guest rednorthampton]

well said

[fRed]

If you look at the stats then you'll see that Wilson's record is no different to when the gang of 3 were here 4 years ago, so where has Wilson taken this club? Nowhere! Apart from over a million of Steve Lansdown's money.

[Jimmy]

"If you look at the stats then you'll see that Wilson's record is no different to when the gang of 3 were here 4 years ago, so where has Wilson taken this club? Nowhere!"

1) I never said that he had taken the club anywhere!

2) This isnt meant as a pro DW post as such. Its meant as one that questions why people continue to suggest sacking DW is in the foreseable future when in fact, contract obiding its no-where near!

and

3) When was the last time that any manager we had 'took us somewhere' and was able to maintain the team at the next level. John Ward got us promoted but then we floundered, I'm not convinced bringing in Benny which led to John Wards departure was the right course of action, however thats in the past.

This is another thing that amazes me, if we as a club had been flying high, winning games left right and centre, going on successive cup runs whilst dominating in the league - i could being to understand the whole 'What has DW done for this club?' talk. But we havent, so what has any manager significantly added for us that Danny appears to be doing such a fine job of unravelling?

[openEnd]

3) When was the last time that any manager we had 'took us somewhere' and was able to maintain the team at the next level. John Ward got us promoted but then we floundered, I'm not convinced bringing in Benny which led to John Wards departure was the right course of action, however thats in the past.

This is another thing that amazes me, if we as a club had been flying high, winning games left right and centre, going on successive cup runs whilst dominating in the league - i could being to understand the whole 'What has DW done for this club?' talk. But we havent, so what has any manager significantly added for us that Danny appears to be doing such a fine job of unravelling?

So let me see if I understand that?

We haven't acheived much in the past, so it is OK for DW to underacheive for the remainder of his contrct, its not a big deal?

Utterly ridiculous, if every other club thought along those lines we could do away with all promotions, championships, cups and just give them to the inaugral winners each May.

[Jimmy]

Although thats a fair conclusion to draw from what i wrote its actually (obviously!) not what i meant.

fRed speaks of the 'gang of 3', and if i remember correctly very few, if any people made consistent 'sack the management' remarks - not to the extent that DW suffers anyway.

My point is that some people talk like we are this amazing team who is suffering from DW's leadership and poor management skill. When was the last time we were consistently successful?

Perhaps it stems from the 'sleeping giant' mindset, I'm 21 and have supported City all my life. However nothing in that time (on pitch) has given us even the slightest justification to state we are a sleeping giant.

There are only 2 reasons why we are classed as a sleeping giant;

1) Most important of all - Bristol is one of the largets Cities in the UK and yet, as compared to others (Manchester, Sheffield, Birmingham etc) we have no 'top flight' team,

and 2) We have a good stadium and have prooved we are capable of filling it.

Our reasoning for continuing to be known as a sleeping giant has nothing to do with credible and unlucky on pitch performances and everything to do with the expectations of a big city to have a big team. DW hasnt undone any recent glories, he's brought us our only modern day silverware and we've progressed season on season under his tutorship. DW has been good for this club, I'm not sure about you but i think a period of stability was required, id rather not go back to having a new manager every year!

This is why i fail to see the justification in DW being continually slated, slated as much as any a recent manager i can remember, when we have improoved under him (in regards to promotion aspirations) season on season and only lie 2 points (goal difference inc) of automatic promotion.

I'm actually getting away from my original point now which was;

Last summer the board gave him a 3 year extension why would they now sack him and be forced to fork out compensation, especially considering we are a stones throw form an automatic promotion place?

[openEnd]

Obviously I cannot speak for everybody, but I do NOT class us as being 'Big Club' 'sleeping giant', never have. That label was (rightfully so) used for clubs like Fulham, Bolton, Birmingham, West Brom, Wolves. You know the sort of teams? ones with a history of actually winning things. Sheff Wed would fit the mould now. We however cant live with them on history.

Having said all that I dont think anyone can argue we have underperformed, historically AND are doing likewise currently. Wilson is the reason IMO that we are continuing the trend. I personally would be (reasonably) content with a mid table Division One existence, is that really to much to ask from our glorious ex premiership leader?

[Jimmy]

What does 'IMO' stand for? I see it used on various boards but have never known what it meant!

Your other comment is interesting - being content with mid-table first division football. At this point in time idhave to agree but if we were in that position for a number of years it is only natural that people would expect to see an improovement and subsequently challenge for a potential play-off spot.

I understand what is implied by the 'glorious ex premierhip leader' comment. Let me just state that whilst i am bemused at why there is talk of DW being sacked whilst we lie 2 points behind with 2 games to go, I'm not someone who will back any manager, DW included if i feel their presence is not beneficial to the club. The fact that he used to manage in the premiership may impress some but the only track record (for a manager) worth examining is the one with his current club.

So i say again, DW's track with this club isnt bad - what has it been 7th, 3rd losing in the play-offs to a team that is comfotably mid table in the first and was challenging for play-off places, and now we are 3rd with 2 games to go with serious aspirations of automatic promotion.

[Guest]

What does 'IMO' stand for? I see it used on various boards but have never known what it meant!

Your other comment is interesting - being content with mid-table first division football. At this point in time idhave to agree but if we were in that position for a number of years it is only natural that people would expect to see an improovement and subsequently challenge for a potential play-off spot.

I understand what is implied by the 'glorious ex premierhip leader' comment. Let me just state that whilst i am bemused at why there is talk of DW being sacked whilst we lie 2 points behind with 2 games to go, I'm not someone who will back any manager, DW included if i feel their presence is not beneficial to the club. The fact that he used to manage in the premiership may impress some but the only track record (for a manager) worth examining is the one with his current club.

So i say again, DW's track with this club isnt bad - what has it been 7th, 3rd losing in the play-offs to a team that is comfotably mid table in the first and was challenging for play-off places, and now we are 3rd with 2 games to go with serious aspirations of automatic promotion.

IMO = IN MY HUMBLE OPINION; You wont change peoples opinions on Danny or Peacock, but the nearly all the silent majority share your views, unlike a FEW who express their opinions rather loudly. They are only trying to do what they think is benificial to us as well. IMO that is of course. From a definate :Wave:

[bucksred]

After the last relegation, which ##*** us up, we have, until this season gradually improved, albeit slowly.

This season, despite spending more than any other team in the bottom two divisions, and probably quite a few in Div 1, we have gone backwards for a fair part of the season, and are at best treading water. The manager despite facilities, a team, and an academy most others would envy, has not:

A. Motivated the players sufficiently.

B. Brought the right players for promotion. See various thresads on Knight, Mooney and many others mentioned.

C. Players have been played in wrong positions regularly, others have been ignored, for reasons only known to Mr Wilson, others wont get dropped even when clearly out of form.

D. Excuses have varied from us the fans!, pitches etc, instead of who it really is down to.

Likewise I'm not a believer in Premiership football, we would be a good Division 1 side, until such time as our financial situation permitted it.

BUT when you talk of promotion, and spend the most, as most promoted sides do, you do as a fan have expectations of said automatic promotion, from what is in truth a very poor Division 2.

I'm expecting the playoffs in truth now, where we traditionally do poorly, so that if we manage 2nd, I will be pleasantly pleased, and this will be despite our manager, not because of him.

[Maesknoll Red]

IMO = IN MY HUMBLE OPINION;

Without wishing to appear pedantic........ I was under the impression that IMO = In my opinion, IMHO = In my humble opinion.

See, this interweb thingy is all about confusing interpretations of differing opinions - IMHO.

Lets hope Danny gets the right balance with Sundays team selection.

[Guest Holly7406]

80

[openEnd]

I don't know if 80 is correct, though I have no reason to question its accuracy.

This must be that 'progress' the clappies are continually spouting about?

[Big Red Rich]

The combination of TD and JB at the start of the season prooved to be a mistake, but hey managers make mistakes - it just so happens that when your Bristol City manager if you make such errors they are magnified ten times over.

It was a mistake and if Danny Wilson was to be honest he would probably admit it himself. But, weeks and weeks before he stopped playing this combination we were all begging him to stop it on here. We could easily see that it wasnt working, what took him so long?

But hey, he's signed a 3 year contract so no matter if he gets us relegated he will still see out his contract. I agree, we have to have some consistency in managers. No, thats just crap!

The truth of the matter is, we all may not be tactical geniuses but we know a good team and a good player when we see one, its a shame that DW is lacking this quality.

IMO we will never amount to anything with this man in charge. Please prove me wrong but i doubt it.

[jimmyb]

After the last relegation, which ##*** us up, we have, until this season gradually improved, albeit slowly.

This season, despite spending more than any other team in the bottom two divisions, and probably quite a few in Div 1, we have gone backwards for a fair part of the season, and are at best treading water. The manager despite facilities, a team, and an academy most others would envy, has not:

A. Motivated the players sufficiently.

B. Brought the right players for promotion. See various thresads on Knight, Mooney and many others mentioned.

C. Players have been played in wrong positions regularly, others have been ignored, for reasons only known to Mr Wilson, others wont get dropped even when clearly out of form.

D. Excuses have varied from us the fans!, pitches etc, instead of who it really is down to.

Likewise I'm not a believer in Premiership football, we would be a good Division 1 side, until such time as our financial situation permitted it.

BUT when you talk of promotion, and spend the most, as most promoted sides do, you do as a fan have expectations of said automatic promotion, from what is in truth a very poor Division 2.

I'm expecting the playoffs in truth now, where we traditionally do poorly, so that if we manage 2nd, I will be pleasantly pleased, and this will be despite our manager, not because of him.

Quite interestingly as well i believe i am right in saying that when murray and tinnion came on for rougier and wilkshire on saturday we had on the pitch the exact same 11 players (exception being bell for burnell) that played against cardiff that fateful night last may.

This despite having spent some £600k in the meantime on players to get us promoted!!!!

Now i'm not being funny but i think we (the fans) and whoever gave sgt wilson the money to spend deserve a little bit of a better return than that!!

[Maesknoll Red]

I don't know if 80 is correct, though I have no reason to question its accuracy.

This must be that 'progress' the clappies are continually spouting about?

The truth is out there..........

[Jimmy]

FAO Tom F;

Where do i say we have more points this season than last? Please point it out to me!

"after all we are better placed this year to gain automatic promotion than any year since we achieved it."

This time last season we were 4 points off second place, this season we are 1 point off second place (2 points counting QPR's significant goal difference.) Correct me if i am wrong but that means that this season we are better placed to gain automatic promotion.

[Jimmy]

FAO Big Red Rich;

"But hey, he's signed a 3 year contract so no matter if he gets us relegated he will still see out his contract. I agree, we have to have some consistency in managers. No, thats just crap!"

Comments like this are so pointless its untrue. Yes thats right me and all my 'happy clappy', Greenpeace loving, peace pipe smoking friends just want everyone at Bristol City football club to have a fun time, who cares if we get relegated.

Believe it or not even me, the stalwart DW fan which i clearly am would consider sacking him if we were relegated, although of course every case must be judged on its merits!

I'm finding quite a few things that amaze me about football fans now i think about it, none more the continuing stream of fans who think they know football better than someone who has both played and managed in the game professionally, and successfully!

TD and JB was a mistake, yes fans recognised this before DW stopped playing it but are you advocating that we now make tactical changes to the side based on fan opinion. I'm sure fans, fonts of all knowledge that we clearly are, have suggested tactical changes in the past which would not have worked out. DW got that decision wrong, I'm not attempting to defend the undefendable but look at the league table we are in a good position and promotion through playoffs or automatic is still a distinct possiblility, can we not at least reserve judgement of our manager situation untill after the season is over.

Serious question : Would you sack DW if we were promoted?

[PhatWill]

Excellent post Jimmy.

Danny Wilson is so painfully close to taking this side up, I just hope that he can this season.

Ignore the muppets just waiting for us to lose on Sunday so they can prove themselves right.

[PhatWill]

Er, Supporting the team and supporting the manager is slightly different.

Yeh, and over the course of the season a few people on here have talked considerably more about Danny Wilson's failings than tried and supported the team.

I question DW's ability sometimes, recognise when he does well but don't continuely bang on about sacking the man all season.

Some people should get a new line, question why the untouchable players are all of a sudden working their arse's off and get behind the team and management for HOPEFULLY the last two games of the season.

[jimmyb]

Er, Supporting the team and supporting the manager is slightly different.

Someone summed it up for me; 'I want what's best for BCFC, and thats not DW in charge'

Why should we, after spending the most money and having the best resources, be struggling for the third succesive season to get out of this division?

Exactly - and 'promotion if gained will be in spite of Wilson and not because of him' - is another one close to the mark

up until this season i have been relatively supportive of wilson - although never really trusting of him - in some ways perhaps he has been hampered by the fact that in many ways i think we overachieved last season - but nonetheless this season has been a shambles

the money spent to return given has been appalling the qualty of football has been atrotious(sp?)

we were told that we needed to be defensively tougher to get promoted and that would be an area we are keen to strengthen. Now whilst i dont doubt we have conceded a lot less goals we've still lost 10 games compared to 11 last year - we still cant defend a set piece properly and this improved defending has come at the expense of 24 less goals - despite the purchase of 5 attacking players!!!

i just get more and more bemused and frustrated by wilson every week - however i hope he's still our manager next year as at least this means the players will have got us into Div 1 which is where we must be just to survive as a club!! From there i dont know maybe his managerial talents will, as with barnsley, suddenly appear by magic to all of us - i however remain unconvinced!

[Bristol Boy]

There are a few things that i feel need to be said, primarily regarding DW.

First of all WHATEVER your opinion of DW he signed a 3 year contract extension last summer. That sentence makes fans opinions of his job security irrelevant - no questions asked. I'm not for one second asking people not to form opinions, opinions are great - if we all agreed what a boring place the world would be! However having said that what good, and for what purpose is all the over exagerated DW out talk.

Baring extreme naivity by the Bristol City board and Mr Lansdown their is only 1 way DW will leave the club without seeing out AT LEAST next year, that being he leaves to join another club and we get compensation. I'm not entirely sure how many times this fact needs to be pointed out to certain individuals before they grasp it.

Our apparent financial situation, as with the vast majority of Nationwide clubs, is/ (appears to be) an unfavourable one. So why exactly would we sack DW and be forced to pay him for the remainder of his contract, do the people who want him to be sacked think so little of the City board. Do you honestly believe that he would have been given a 3 year extension if he was to be placed in a promotion or sack scenario?

Second of all, this we are underachieving talk annoys me, although (and this will sound strange) to an extent i agree. In who's eyes are we exactly underachieving, after all we are better placed this year to gain automatic promotion than any year since we achieved it. The apparent underachievement is through the fans eyes, some of who feel we have the divine right to steam roller teams into submission before leaving this god for saken divison behind to be greated into divison one by a fanfare!

At the start of this season i thought that anything other than promotion would be an underachievement and i still do. Given that there are 2 games remaining and we are a point behind 2nd place, I'm not willing to throw in the automatic promotion towel just yet, let alone our chances of breaking our plaf-off voodoo at the expense of the very beatable Hartlepool, Swindon and Brighton.

I dont deny that some of DW's signings havent gone to plan. Luke Wilkshire has shown he can play but has been severly lacking form. Marc Goodfellow was the toast of the town after scoring the winner at Notts County and subsequently scoring a clutch of goals on arrival - now i see people describig him as a 'tart' - pathetic! Lee Miller has great potential but has so far failed to deliver, i remember reading after we signed him that he was recommended by a fan (or possibly a group of fans), well why dont we hang them up by their buster browns and give DW a break (please be aware this is sarcasm!)

The combination of TD and JB at the start of the season prooved to be a mistake, but hey managers make mistakes - it just so happens that when your Bristol City manager if you make such errors they are magnified ten times over.

I think people also fail to recognise that in recent years the club has been, perhaps not so much on the pitch but off it, rebuilding. In the last 5 years or so Scott Davidson has withdrawn financial backing, we've had the John Ward/Benny Lennartson situation, the Tony Pulis contract dibacle and amidst all this the club has been promoted, spent money we appear not to have had and come straight back down. We've also lost money on alot of our playing investments - Shaun Goater, Paul Agostino, Soren and Bo Anderson, Vlamos Sebok, Ivan Testimatanu and Tony Thorpe to name a few.

I'm not trying to be 'happy clappy' (it appears that is the name anybody who doesnt slate DW falls under) I'm simply frustrated by the number of fans who feel the solution to all the clubs problems is to sack the manager. I'm not especially a DW fan, however I'm far from the apparent logic of many who think ousting him is the best way forward for the club on the whole.

Danny Wilson and Steve Lansdown have stabilised this club significantly over the past few years and i dont think they get as much credit as they deserve for it. We all want to see promotion, ill personally be devestated if we dont achieve it however i, unlike many, can take a step back and see that not only is sacking DW not feeisble financially but it is extremely unlikely considering the contract he was offered last summer.

First of all WHATEVER your opinion of DW he signed a 3 year contract extension last summer.

If footballs taught you anything, it's that Contracts are meaningless,l but for compensation.The mistake was removing him from his rolling one year dea.He should have been plcaed in a promotion or sack scenario.

With his record, which decent team would want him

The apparent underachievement is through the fans eyes, some of who feel we have the divine right to steam roller teams into submission before leaving this god for saken divison behind to be greated into divison one by a fanfare!

There is no divine right.What there is is an expectation level based on:

Stadium

Academy

Previous Acheivement

Population

Transfer Fees

Big Wages

Crowds

that clubs like Rotherham, Crewe,Walsall, don't have.

All managers are criticised and the fans have been very patient with DW.

His signings have been poor and his tactics strange and baffling.His communication skills seem to consist of cliches and thinking he's knows best.

I agree about SL stabilising the club, but letting TT walk away was down to not transfer listing him quick enough and signing to many strikers, on to much money, without clauses, when we were promoted.

[Maesknoll Red]

Ignore the muppets just waiting for us to lose on Sunday so they can prove themselves right.

What a shock........Phatwill turning a debate into personal insults.

I'm sure the criticisim of Wilson is an outpouring of frustration at years and years of underachievement and would be forthcomming no matter who the Manager was.

How many bosses would back a managers business plan and not expect to see some tangible results after 4 years - not many, you could expect to be looking for another job in many industries, not just football.

There is virtually 100% agreement that we have the best Chairman for years, and a chief exec. who is bringing much needed income into the club via concerts, exhibition halls etc.

No one is claimimg that the Managers job is easy, but when you look at the progress of Plymouth, it has been achieved without the resources available to Danny Wilson. I would suggest that this was largely down to their recently departed Manager (to a premiership club), who appears to have managed his available resources better than Danny Wilson.

I for one will be biting my nails on Sunday, desperately hoping for a win.

[Hodges17]

If you look at the stats then you'll see that Wilson's record is no different to when the gang of 3 were here 4 years ago, so where has Wilson taken this club? Nowhere! Apart from over a million of Steve Lansdown's money.

Excuse me for butting in, but in 2 weeks time Wilson might have taken you up into the 1st division! Probably not the best time to moan then.

[Guest WillsbridgeRed]

Join us

[Hodges17]

sorry no I'm Blue through and through.

[Guest WillsbridgeRed]

Don't lie to yourself. You know you can't help yourself in wanting to support City. Don't argue with the voices, let them lead you

[Hodges17]

Don't lie to yourself. You know you can't help yourself in wanting to support City. Don't argue with the voices, let them lead you

The only voices i hear are the ones telling me that 3rd div. mediocraty is good, and that i should keep supporting Rovers until one day they gain some kind of success.

CUE LAUGHTER

[rumbellow]

Forgive me for my naiveness (if that's a real word), But, I would have thought that a manager is judged over a period of time (in Wilson's case 4 years) on the folowing:-

1)Results

2)Achievement

3)Team selections

4)Team tactics (include substitutions)

5)Signings

6)Respect of players

He has failed in all the above.

I'm sorry Jimmy, But, This is 'WHAT HAVE THE ROMANS EVER DONE FOR US' in reverse.

'WHAT HAS DANNY WILSON EVER DONE FOR US'.

Stability.

Oh and a Mickey Mouse cup victory struggle against a team that has been flirting with the Conference for longer than the gas.

Why was he brought in TO BRING PROMOTION TO THE FIRST DIVISION and that as usual has become a lottery.

His biggest crime is, When the board gave him a new 3 year contract and money to spend, He has bought dross Wilkshire, Miller and Goodfellow, But, The evidence was already there his previous signings were'nt exactly life changing.

[bucksred]

Er, Supporting the team and supporting the manager is slightly different.

Someone summed it up for me; 'I want what's best for BCFC, and thats not DW in charge'

Why should we, after spending the most money and having the best resources, be struggling for the third succesive season to get out of this division?

Spot on Tom...

I support BRISTOL CITY, not the vastly over-rated Danny Wilson. Once he ##*** off to screw some other club up, the club will still be here, and I'll (among many, many others) still be supporting them season in season out, while we become more amusing anecdotes in his inevitable biography, where he'll say he wasnt given enough time, money or support from the club, players, and us the fans! ##** that hes had too much time, wasted too much money, and his excuses are pathetic.

The real downer though- we cant afford to get rid of him in our financial state, so I cant see improvements coming for a while, nor can I see him resigning.

Last point, if by some miracle we do go up, how the hell are we supposed to survive in Div 1, with the current squad, and a small transfer budget, given DW's outstanding record on this: Goodfellow, Leapy, Butler?????? not to mention the collosus that is Pieman Caskey. Or even the playing of players out of position, not playing them at all, or playing them when they are out of confidence/form/interest???