Noble

[mozo]

Has Johnson ever laid a goal on a plate for someone in the same way that, ironically, Noble did for Johnson at Southampton. No, fact.

So you're telling me that Lee Johnson has never laid on a goal???? Does putting the word 'fact' at the end of a statement magically make that statement true??

hmm sadly, no. That is simply not true. Well I have only seen data for Arsenal, and yes I agree they have by far superior ability, but the team workrate would make the vast majority of our team wince. GJ said on joining the Championship we had to up work rate by 25% just to compete, ok maybe an overstatement, but there is a big jump in fitness and more importantly athletisism as you go up the leagues. Do not think for one minute the most gifted players stroll around. Gerard and Lampard run miles and at speed in a game. Players in the Prem are there because they have ability, but also because they have work rate. Days have long gone when someone could blag it. The pace of the Prem is quite frankly frightening. I think people were trying to justify that Noble play because he has great skills on the ball and we should disregard his total lack of fitness. Sadly for Noble, he should, with his ability be playing in the Prem, but he has never got himself fit enough to be even close. Wenger told him that when he got rid, and GJ has told him the same over the last years. This romantic vision of Noble solving all our problems is way off the mark. Noble should be playing in the Prem, no doubt, but the reason he is not ,is all down to him, he knows it, has been told why, but chooses not to make the most of his ability. Give him a run to get him fit? Where are people when Noble plays 2 or 3 games in a row? He is hopeless. Why? Because he is knackered. Tommy doc syndrome if you like. Noble is a major talent, but does not have the desire to make the most of his talent.

Agree with all of that.

Now my argument with respect to Noble is very, very simple. Noble has the quality, far in excess of LJ. He had the workrate when we was allowed to play in the middle of the park.

Really????

[Nibor]

Really????

Yes, when he played in the middle for extended periods he was capable of 90 minutes at sufficient workrate to affect the game.

[cheese]

If you could see the prozone stats that relate specifically to work rate (km's run etc), you'd be surprised and probably a little more sympathetic toward LJ. And there is a vast difference between the numer of miles run during a game by Premier League players and championship players.

[mozo]

Yes, when he played in the middle for extended periods he was capable of 90 minutes at sufficient workrate to affect the game.

So he didn't used to go missing in games and fade in the last 20/30 mins?

I must be deluding myself...

[Nibor]

If you could see the prozone stats that relate specifically to work rate (km's run etc), you'd be surprised and probably a little more sympathetic toward LJ. And there is a vast difference between the numer of miles run during a game by Premier League players and championship players.

I'm sure LJ covers more ground, I've said that. So what? He is achieving nothing by doing so at the moment and hasn't been all season.

When played in the middle Noble has enough of a work rate to make a difference and far more quality, he's simply a more effective player IMO.

We've tried changing everything else to no avail, why haven't we tried changing the creative player when our game is so obviously lacking creativity?

[cheese]

I'm sure LJ covers more ground, I've said that. So what? He is achieving nothing by doing so at the moment and hasn't been all season.

When played in the middle Noble has enough of a work rate to make a difference and far more quality, he's simply a more effective player IMO.

We've tried changing everything else to no avail, why haven't we tried changing the creative player when our game is so obviously lacking creativity?

So, you're saying that his workrate drops when on the right? Maybe if he upped his workrate when played on the right he might get his chance in the middle? Oop - GJ's already said that.

[Nibor]

So he didn't used to go missing in games and fade in the last 20/30 mins?

I must be deluding myself...

Occasionally yes. Are you actually watching us play at the moment? Long stretches of play are completely passing LJ by and when he does have the ball he's not doing anything useful with it.

I'm not making Noble out to be some all action football god, he's just more likely to help us score goals than LJ is by far and certainly no worse defensively.

Peter Schmeichel once topped the prozone "distance run" stats just to prove a point, made sod all difference to the game.

[Nibor]

So, you're saying that his workrate drops when on the right? Maybe if he upped his workrate when played on the right he might get his chance in the middle? Oop - GJ's already said that.

No I'm not saying that, it's another straw man. I'm comparing Noble in his correct position to LJ in his correct position.

When did GJ say he'd play Noble in the middle if he ran around more? I've never heard that one before.

[mikep]

If you could see the prozone stats that relate specifically to work rate (km's run etc), you'd be surprised and probably a little more sympathetic toward LJ. And there is a vast difference between the numer of miles run during a game by Premier League players and championship players.

Are you saying that you have access to the prozone stats for LJ? Perhaps you can provide hard facts and figures to substantiate this. I am still not convinced that covering a lot of ground equates to affecting the game in any shape or form.

[cheese]

No I'm not saying that, it's another straw man. I'm comparing Noble in his correct position to LJ in his correct position.

When did GJ say he'd play Noble in the middle if he ran around more? I've never heard that one before.

Umh, Nobel said that GJ said that he had to increase his workrate, you said his workrate is fine when played in the middile, you inferred that his workrate wasn't as high when he played on the right as it was when he was in the middle - ergo, his workrate on the right isn't enough. That is what you said isn't it?

[bcfcmike]

So you're telling me that Lee Johnson has never laid on a goal???? Does putting the word 'fact' at the end of a statement magically make that statement true??

LJ has actually laid on more goals for the opposition this season, Peterborough and Derby spring to mind, there is prob more???

[cheese]

Are you saying that you have access to the prozone stats for LJ? Perhaps you can provide hard facts and figures to substantiate this. I am still not convinced that covering a lot of ground equates to affecting the game in any shape or form.

You're quite right - but we were discussing workrate which clearly is dependent on how much running you do.

[Nibor]

Umh, Nobel said that GJ said that he had to increase his workrate, you said his workrate is fine when played in the middile, you inferred that his workrate wasn't as high when he played on the right as it was when he was in the middle - ergo, his workrate on the right isn't enough. That is what you said isn't it?

No, you did the inference. Not me. I simply said in the middle because it's more relevant.

If you're basing your assertion that GJ will give Noble a chance in the middle if he ups his workrate on the first comment in the thread then I think you're making a very big leap.

Even if that's what Noble actually said, he's talking about tracking back, which LJ doesn't do anyway and it doesn't mean that he'd get picked if he did.

[bcfcmike]

My nan who is 82 could prob cover the ground LJ does if she trotted around like he does, lets see him run everywhere and get stuck in with the opposition like Nick carle used too and see if he last's 90 mins then????

[Nibor]

You're quite right - but we were discussing workrate which clearly is dependent on how much running you do.

Have a read.

You're talking about running around, I'm talking about creating goals.

LJ could run 20km in a game, so what? He has 1 assist in over 20 appearances this season despite taking most of the set pieces.

[cheese]

No, you did the inference. Not me. I simply said in the middle because it's more relevant.

If you're basing your assertion that GJ will give Noble a chance in the middle if he ups his workrate on the first comment in the thread then I think you're making a very big leap.

Even if that's what Noble actually said, he's talking about tracking back, which LJ doesn't do anyway and it doesn't mean that he'd get picked if he did.

Yes, sorry, you're quite right - you said his workrate was sufficient for the middle not that it was better than when he played on the right - my apologies - readi it wrong.

But anyway, his workrate is not sufficient - he acknowledges that, GJ has told him that.

[bcfcmike]

Have a read.

You're talking about running around, I'm talking about creating goals.

LJ could run 20km in a game, so what? He has 1 assist in over 20 appearances this season despite taking most of the set pieces.

Disgusting stats........if any other player produced those stats they would be out.....why is LJ not???

[cheese]

Have a read.

You're talking about running around, I'm talking about creating goals.

LJ could run 20km in a game, so what? He has 1 assist in over 20 appearances this season despite taking most of the set pieces.

Well, we were talking about workrate - a major component of which is the amount of running you do. No running = no work rate - there is a correlation. But if you want to change to creativity then fine. But that's been done to death too.

[Nibor]

Yes, sorry, you're quite right - you said his workrate was sufficient for the middle not that it was better than when he played on the right - my apologies - readi it wrong.

But anyway, his workrate is not sufficient - he acknowledges that, GJ has told him that.

Tracking back and work rate aren't the same thing and all Noble apparently said is that's what GJ thinks.

Are you going to answer any of the other points?

Like why we haven't tried changing the creative player when creativity is a problem?

Like how running around a lot helps when the player who does it does not do any tackling or ball winning or marking?

[Nibor]

Well, we were talking about workrate - a major component of which is the amount of running you do. No running = no work rate - there is a correlation. But if you want to change to creativity then fine. But that's been done to death too.

Oh dearie me, try actually reading what I've posted.

You're the one banging on about work rate and opta stats, I'm talking about us picking a player who might not run around as much but will affect the game more and have been all along.

[cheese]

Tracking back and work rate aren't the same thing and all Noble apparently said is that's what GJ thinks.

Are you going to answer any of the other points?

Like why we haven't tried changing the creative player when creativity is a problem?

Like how running around a lot helps when the player who does it does not do any tackling or ball winning or marking?

So tracking back wouldn't increase his work rate?? Upping his workrate wouldn't increase his tracking back?? And they're not the same thing??? Think about that one.

We haven't changed the creative player because we don't have a player with the required work rate to play in the middle to replace the player who currently occupies that position. And for your second question - what do you want in the middle, creativity or someone who does all the tackling heading etc? And to answer my own question - we want both - but we don't have it right now.

[dezgimed]

You can both argue till you're blue but the fact is Noble isnt being played because his workrate is poor, yet LJ's workrate is just as poor (ever seen him sprint?) and his tracking back is ineffective due to his adversity to tackling.

Noble played in the middle when we were promoted and how now been outcast whilst LJ can play there.

That to me is GJ being a hypocrite and displaying ridiculous favouratism.

[Nibor]

So tracking back wouldn't increase his work rate?? Upping his workrate wouldn't increase his tracking back?? And they're not the same thing??? Think about that one.

That's a correlation doesn't mean they're the same thing. He could up his workrate by running up and down the half way line without tracking back more. Tracking back means getting behind play when we're defending and actually marking and challenging. None of which LJ does either.

McIndoe has a very high work rate but doesn't track back a lot. Think about that one.

We haven't changed the creative player because we don't have a player with the required work rate to play in the middle to replace the player who currently occupies that position. And for your second question - what do you want in the middle, creativity or someone who does all the tackling heading etc? And to answer my own question - we want both - but we don't have it right now.

I want both but I'd take one or the other over neither which is what what we're getting out of LJ.

[Ronnie]

Spoke to Noble yesterday, when I asked him why he wasn't playing he said ''The gaffa doesn't think I track back enough''.

He also admitted he's not as fit as he should be, but that can be fixed with games.

So there you have it...

Perhaps he may be going to be moved on in January, maybe Crystal Palace if they have to sell some of their young players.

[Jungle Jim]

Good discussion this.

It seems to create a conundrum, in that the assertion s is if Noble had a high workrate he'd be a premier league quality player. In which case in all likelihood he wouldn't be playing for us.

GJ doesn't play Noble because he doesn't like his workrate. But we are unlikely to get players with the ability of Noble + a good workrate, because when they have both they are too good for this level. (Could be where the Prem loans come in.)

So GJ has to choose the package of attributes his midfielders bring, as you can't have everything. Now we know he isn't a fan of "championship manager", but isn't that actually the sort of approach needed in this situation.

For example to look at 3 main criteria for a midfielder, and assign some scores:

Johnson

stamina 8/10

passing 4/10

flair 3/10

total 15/30

Noble

stamina 5/10

passing 5/10

flair 7/10

total 17/30

Would mean that on balance Noble is the better package. But that really we need players getting about 21/30 on this arbitrary scoring system to be at the top end of this league, whilst those on 24/30 or higher are premier league quality.

I tend to agree with the statements above that the answer probably isn't Noble, certainly isn't Johnson, and hopefully we sign a reasonably fit creative midfielder on January 1st.

[Whale Eye Beef Hooked]

Whilst there are points for both players, this is a post about Noble. He says that he is not fit enough. Well that is down to his attitude, why not get himself fit. Ill tell you why , it is because he probably doesnt care if he plays or not.

In my eyes he should be trying to get as fit as poss and do as the manager asks like Trundle did last season. It is obviously an attitude thing, i would sell him if we could find a buyer ( not exactly banging the door down are they ). I would also get rid of Lee Johnson so i don't have to keep reading the same old rubbish on here which some is justified and some is not.

Happy days

[cinker]

That's a correlation doesn't mean they're the same thing. He could up his workrate by running up and down the half way line without tracking back more. Tracking back means getting behind play when we're defending and actually marking and challenging. None of which LJ does either.

McIndoe has a very high work rate but doesn't track back a lot. Think about that one.

I want both but I'd take one or the other over neither which is what what we're getting out of LJ.

So, if we had a donkey with a hard work rate we would play him?

[DavidNoble]

You can both argue till you're blue but the fact is Noble isnt being played because his workrate is poor, yet LJ's workrate is just as poor (ever seen him sprint?) and his tracking back is ineffective due to his adversity to tackling.

Noble played in the middle when we were promoted and how now been outcast whilst LJ can play there.

That to me is GJ being a hypocrite and displaying ridiculous favouratism.

Wasn't it LJ and Alex Russel that played centre mid together when we went up and Nobes was given the free role. He has hardly EVER played centre mid i don't think.

[bh_red]

Wasn't it LJ and Alex Russel that played centre mid together when we went up and Nobes was given the free role. He has hardly EVER played centre mid i don't think.

yeah, noble's barely played centre midfield since Gary's first season, ironically that was the best football we have played under Gary and we went flying up the table and only just missed the play-offs

Remember us stuffing Gillingham 6-0

[Tales From The Front]

What ever your stance in this most polarised debate. One fact in my view is stand out.

Lee Johnson is a regular in a team that has not won since Southampton, looks without a consistant shape and patern of play...and most importantly unable to create suffcient chances to score the required number of goals.

No it is not his fault entirely, if at all as its not his decision that he gets selected. But it is apparent he is part of a collective midfield unit that in 2008/09 cannot compete at this level and therefore is part of the problem not necessrily the solution.