Flaxbourton Red Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 yes that's right the police should be able to injure people with impunity after all the young teenagers by the netting deserve to be beaten around the head and torso by grownmen wearing full body armour maybe even pin them to the floor and pump seven bullets into their heads if they attempt to run away. you people make me sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windmillhillred Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 there is a massive differance between running to the railings and celebrating a goal, and then trying to climb over the netting to get at the away supporters (ones a passionate supporter of the team, the other is a thug) i even saw women picking them selves up of the floor at one stage, ive been in the army for over 20 years and been in plenty of situations where ive had to think on my feet, but its called control, and in my view, a fair few of the police on saturday were out of their depth or poorly briefed, i havent seen any problems when the railings are manned by our own internal stewards (which has been the case for most of the season) The point though, is that 99 times out of 100, they aren't actually trying to get to the away fans. If as many who ran at the fence actually attempted to get to the away fans, they would. They don't, because the run at the awy fans is a rather desperate attempt to look hard in front of their mates. It's not the worse thing in the world when it's teenagers, but a tad tragic when it's proper blokes. That said, the police have got a job to do, and if people are pretending to try to get to the away fans, I don't have much sympathy to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red man dan Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 The simple facts are, if you run at police giving it the big one to impress your mindless friends who are also running with you as they cant make up their own minds what to do and you get hurt, tough ######** luck. You know what the Police are there to do, you know what methods they may use to do it. Think outside of the box and you may realise there is more to it, they ARE protecting people. Flaxbourton, What are your suggestions for what the police should do in this situation? You have been full of veiled hatred towards their actions so far, but thus far have not offered any feasable alternative actions that they could have used. Would you have preffered the police stood back and watched it, letting the 'teenage kids' charge again and again, the whole time winding up the away fans and provoking them? Only then for the 'kids' high on the adrenaline from NOT being stopped to go too far and really cause a ruckus with the likely outcome being not just one or two mouthy teenagers with a slightly bruised arm or leg, but a whole lot of battered kids who had been beaten up by the Wolves fans (who may well have contained some hardened hooligans) because they had bitten off more than they could chew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaxbourton Red Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 The simple facts are, if you run at police giving it the big one to impress your mindless friends who are also running with you as they cant make up their own minds what to do and you get hurt, tough ######** luck. You know what the Police are there to do, you know what methods they may use to do it. Think outside of the box and you may realise there is more to it, they ARE protecting people. Flaxbourton, What are your suggestions for what the police should do in this situation? You have been full of veiled hatred towards their actions so far, but thus far have not offered any feasable alternative actions that they could have used. Would you have preffered the police stood back and watched it, letting the 'teenage kids' charge again and again, the whole time winding up the away fans and provoking them? Only then for the 'kids' high on the adrenaline from NOT being stopped to go too far and really cause a ruckus with the likely outcome being not just one or two mouthy teenagers with a slightly bruised arm or leg, but a whole lot of battered kids who had been beaten up by the Wolves fans (who may well have contained some hardened hooligans) because they had bitten off more than they could chew. so rather than the teenagers risk being beaten by wolves fans you'd rather have them beaten by the police? build a bloody gert fence and allow the police do something about the burglary and knife crime rates that have just gone up again instead of pretending to be a fence and charging the club for it how clearer can I be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red man dan Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 so rather than the teenagers risk being beaten by wolves fans you'd rather have them beaten by the police? build a bloody gert fence and allow the police do something about the burglary and knife crime rates that have just gone up again instead of pretending to be a fence and charging the club for it how clearer can I be? No of course not, HOWEVER that didnt and would not happen, when have police been found guilty of beating up teenagers at football matches, stamping on them, bottling them, and leaving them in the streets? And how many times have football hooligans done the above or similar? EXACTLY. Were they 'beaten' by the police? I very much doubt it, as i say one or two being reminded, with a bit of force, not to push the boundaries is a far better scenario than the possible outcomes that could be caused by 'risking' a riot with away fans, where as i said there would have been far more injuries and they could have been far more serious. These actions by the police in actual effect are also protecting the likes of those charging the nets in the first place. As for the fence idea, i agree with you. In theory if it can be done, then i think its a great idea, problem solved. For the record, i would imagine the police you see in the ground on a saturday would much rather spend their time concentrating on knife crime and burglary's. Maybe you should point this out to the 300 'hardnuts' who run at the nets and away fans next week, after all they are the reason the police HAVE to be there in the first place, at least untill an iron curtain is built to stop people who ironically appear to enjoy the same things, figthing with each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
City_pete1 Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 A little uncalled for in my opinion. When you have to make a split second decisions based on factors presented to you that have been disseminated and calculated by persons other than yourself, and you know, based on what you have been told, that the consequences of not acting you may be responcible for the deaths of many innocent civilians, WHEN and ONLY when YOU yourself flaxbourton have been in that position can you pass judgement on the individuals who fired those shots. A huge mistake yes, a tradgedy definately, however i don't think we as lay onlookers have the right to judge those officers who acted on that day. There were failings throughout a number of organisations that day, failings made amongst very straining circumstances.I am sure the officers invloved fully regret the outcome, however on the whole its thanks to people like them willing to deal with and react to such dangerous and chaotic situations that the British public get to live in relative peace.This is the one time of late where it has gone wrong, however how many times does it go right and not get noticed or reported for obvious reasons? I doubt your job encounters such complex and stressfull situations on a regular basis, whilst helping to protect civilians, if it does then i apologise and offer you my thanks. For reasons I will not go into, I have followed this case VERY closely. And in my personal opinion, you words sum up the situation very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red man dan Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 For reasons I will not go into, I have followed this case VERY closely. And in my personal opinion, you words sum up the situation very well. The sad thing is pete, that the majority of people will base their opinions on the headlines and opening paragraphs of the tabloid newspapers, the Sun, Mirror, etc, etc, who's only ambition is sell newspapers. Therefore they are sensationalised, and the wrongdoings enhanced and unproportionately reported, as this is what, sadly, makes the news. As i have said, there were clear mistakes and operational failings with regards to this case, but things like this are never clear cut and nor for one second can they be explained in any worthwhile detail in a B****** newspaper. In my opinion SOP's were not clearly defined or at least not followed to the book on the day of the event, and the pass down of information through the various chain of commands was not good, intelligence cloudy and uncertain, BUT the fact remains those Officers on that tube, in the end, had a impossible decision to make, and one that in the end only had one outcome, they had to make it and they did. It was wrong, sadly massively, however they in my opinion were not to blame and were acting in the belief that they were safeguarding the lives of innocent civilians around them. The failings elsewhere that day that led to that outcome, MUST be looked at, operational procedueres etc etc scrutinesed but i find it truely hard to believe that anybody involved with it, wanted that result, and i believe all were acting with the best interests of the public in mind. They do a very, very hard job, in extremely challenging circumstances, where by their mistakes are costly. Most people enjoy the luxury of knowing if they mess up at work, really it doesnt matter, knowones going to die, no bomb will blow up on the tube, the worst is they might get a customers order wrong, might lose their company some money, mess up a contract, its NOT the same. People seemingly feel that THEY themselves would not have made those same mistakes if placed in that situation. Untill they have been, they will never know and they should be thankfull for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayer Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 yes that's right the police should be able to injure people with impunity after all the young teenagers by the netting deserve to be beaten around the head and torso by grownmen wearing full body armour maybe even pin them to the floor and pump seven bullets into their heads if they attempt to run away. you people make me sick. If they are giving it the hard nut act, then yes, black and blue. You usually find these young 'hard nuts' are not the type of people who will listen when they are too be talked too and explained things, they are usually thick as 2 short planks and are out to show off in front of their mates and give it 'large'. They don't care who gets hurt in the process, man, woman or child and don't give a toss about the club in regards to rules etc which could result in stand closure/fines etc. If they live by the sword, they die by the sword. If you were being rushed at by a group of thugs, I would expect you would want a 'grownman wearing full body armour' there to protect you. You wouldnt care what he had to do, you would just want him to stop the situation. If these little 'tough guys' knew they would be pumped with seven bullets in their heads if they tried anything, the whole scenario would be different and everyone would be happy with no problems at all. Modern day society is too soft, and this country is being taken over by the low life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 You usually find these young 'hard nuts' are not the type of people who will listen when they are too be talked too and explained things, they are usually thick as 2 short planks and are out to show off in front of their mates and give it 'large'. Very good description of most coppers I've met! Modern day society is too soft, and this country is being taken over by the low life. I would'nt disagree, but would include a fair chunk of coppers in the low life category. I was watching one of many rubbish police programmes which try to glorify the police...... There was one situation in particular which sums the police up for me. The noticed a chap coming out of some premises which is well known for drug selling. So they (rightfully) followed the chap who'd been in the premises and searched him for drugs. They did the usual confiscated the drugs and cautioned him (i think). and the was the end of it......... THE END OF IT? WHAT ABOUT THE DRUG DEN??? Answer? there too scared to do anything!! If you ever get arrested for whatever reason, there will always be at least 4 coppers attempting to arrest you - usually punching and kicking you, regardless of whether your actually resisting arrest. They are usually cowards and i do wonder what actual "training" these guys have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red man dan Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Modern day society is too soft, and this country is being taken over by the low life. Too true, unfortunately todays police have very little power or scope to bring these people to justice and all too often when they do, the courts are 'too clogged up' to bring them to trial, or if they do, they wont serve any custodial sentence because our prisons are too full, and then if they do the 'human rights' 'give them another chance, do gooder' brigade will get hold of them and try to rejuvinate them(or in other terms, give them a nice cell, pool table, sky sports, etc etc), rather than make them 'serve' thier sentence to society with a proper jail sentence, which should, but doesnt, take away their liberties. The reasons offenders continue to RE-OFFEND is because prison for the majority is a piece of cake, it serves as no harsh lesson to change their outlook on life and does not make them think 'Christ, i don't want to go back there again'.So out they come, completely unchanged and feeling quite happy that going back to jail is an acceptable risk, and not one to be feared, for continueing to live their life as they did before, re-offending and making the lives of decent people a misery. In my opinion, and i have seen it already, if people don't feel protected by the police and the government anymore, sooner or later they will take it into their own hands, and unfortunately we have seen the awfull consequences of this already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red man dan Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 I was watching one of many rubbish police programmes which try to glorify the police...... There was one situation in particular which sums the police up for me. The noticed a chap coming out of some premises which is well known for drug selling. So they (rightfully) followed the chap who'd been in the premises and searched him for drugs. They did the usual confiscated the drugs and cautioned him (i think). and the was the end of it......... THE END OF IT? WHAT ABOUT THE DRUG DEN??? Answer? there too scared to do anything!! I disagree massively i'm afraid Riaz. This is an other example of how the average cop on the street gets blamed for 'inaction' when it is simply not their fault. Do you think think it is as simple as seeing and knowing that a certain premises is a drugs den and then blazing in all guns firing? I wish it was, it damn well should be when things are that clear cut, but unfortunately that is not the case. Due to massive sanctions and proceduers put in place likely due to pressure from the govenrment to impose 'rules' on these types of sitautions, it ends up meaning that to conduct such an operation requires a large amount of pre planning, authorisation, paperwork, etc etc, meaning that the officer on the street cannot act on his or her own initiative, it has nothing to do with them 'being scared' or not well trained. I have had many friends and various collegues who have found policing extremely difficult due to the fact that they cannot 'police' because of all the restrictions, rules and regulations, paperwork, political correctness and so forth, many have left having been totaly fed up and dissalutioned with it all. And before you ask, NO i am not in the police, nor have i ever been, nor will i likely ever be due massively to the above, i would find it far too frustrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bully Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 The coppers should stand there guarding the net. If ANY little hardnut feels the need to rush towards the net to goad the opposition fans, it should be seen as inciting to cause a riot. The coppers should then withdraw their batons and teach the little hoodys a lesson. They wont do it again. You're possibly right - fact is, if there wasn't netting and police there, how many of the chaps posing would even be there? That's not a specific dig at anyone by the way - it always annoys me when people large it behind the safety of a barrier or line of OB. There is no doubt however, that some coppers see football matches as an excuse to act up themselves - plenty of horror stories from the away game at Pompey and not everyone who got slapped or bitten were lads. If you had a proper perspex barrier then you probably wouldn't need coppers in there anyway, but its a nice little earner for A&SP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 I disagree massively i'm afraid Riaz. This is an other example of how the average cop on the street gets blamed for 'inaction' when it is simply not their fault. Do you think think it is as simple as seeing and knowing that a certain premises is a drugs den and then blazing in all guns firing? I wish it was, it damn well should be when things are that clear cut, but unfortunately that is not the case. Due to massive sanctions and proceduers put in place likely due to pressure from the govenrment to impose 'rules' on these types of sitautions, it ends up meaning that to conduct such an operation requires a large amount of pre planning, authorisation, paperwork, etc etc, meaning that the officer on the street cannot act on his or her own initiative, it has nothing to do with them 'being scared' or not well trained. I have had many friends and various collegues who have found policing extremely difficult due to the fact that they cannot 'police' because of all the restrictions, rules and regulations, paperwork, political correctness and so forth, many have left having been totaly fed up and dissalutioned with it all. And before you ask, NO i am not in the police, nor have i ever been, nor will i likely ever be due massively to the above, i would find it far too frustrating. If a copper sees an act of crime - they should act. Even if they bend the rules - Section 27 is one example where they happily bend the rules! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EASTEND WURZEL Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 You're possibly right - fact is, if there wasn't netting and police there, how many of the chaps posing would even be there? That's not a specific dig at anyone by the way - it always annoys me when people large it behind the safety of a barrier or line of OB. There is no doubt however, that some coppers see football matches as an excuse to act up themselves - plenty of horror stories from the away game at Pompey and not everyone who got slapped or bitten were lads. If you had a proper perspex barrier then you probably wouldn't need coppers in there anyway, but its a nice little earner for A&SP. I've always thought that if you were jam packed in like sardines and there was little or no segregation at all then there would be NO trouble , the 'young uns' would be quite as a mouse. Thats not just the ones who enter via gate 14 either!! This is the segregation at Villa Park for this seasons game Vs Man Utd, high profile game with no problems inside the stadium. And believe me there was plenty of banter and it did get heated but words only. There wer No police stood between fans through out the game only a steward at the back and one at the front. All police remained at pitch side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 I've always thought that if you were jam packed in like sardines and there was little or no segregation at all then there would be NO trouble , the 'young uns' would be quite as a mouse. Thats not just the ones who enter via gate 14 either!! This is the segregation at Villa Park for this seasons game Vs Man Utd, high profile game with no problems inside the stadium. And believe me there was plenty of banter and it did get heated but words only. There wer No police stood between fans through out the game only a steward at the back and one at the front. All police remained at pitch side. You are 100% correct. The real hooligans don't attend football matches anymore and violence is rare. I'm sure if you had the fans that close there would be no trouble - People don't want to get banned do they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayer Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 You are 100% correct. The real hooligans don't attend football matches anymore and violence is rare. I'm sure if you had the fans that close there would be no trouble - People don't want to get banned do they? Try and explain that to a spotty teenager with baseball cap, loads of bling round his neck thinking he is 50 cent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartolona Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 I've always thought that if you were jam packed in like sardines and there was little or no segregation at all then there would be NO trouble , the 'young uns' would be quite as a mouse. Thats not just the ones who enter via gate 14 either!! This is the segregation at Villa Park for this seasons game Vs Man Utd, high profile game with no problems inside the stadium. And believe me there was plenty of banter and it did get heated but words only. There wer No police stood between fans through out the game only a steward at the back and one at the front. All police remained at pitch side. You are 100% correct. The real hooligans don't attend football matches anymore and violence is rare. I'm sure if you had the fans that close there would be no trouble - People don't want to get banned do they? Palace away last season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Palace away last season Not at home matches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nogbad the Bad Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 I've always thought that if you were jam packed in like sardines and there was little or no segregation at all then there would be NO trouble , the 'young uns' would be quite as a mouse. Thats not just the ones who enter via gate 14 either!! This is the segregation at Villa Park for this seasons game Vs Man Utd, high profile game with no problems inside the stadium. And believe me there was plenty of banter and it did get heated but words only. There wer No police stood between fans through out the game only a steward at the back and one at the front. All police remained at pitch side. Yes, but that would never work at AG when the aim of the fans in the East End is to drown out the noise of the nearby away fans. At Villa, and other Premier League grounds, the fans next to the away fans are more than likely ordinary ST holding fans who sit in the same seat every week and just happened to have ended up with ST's in the seats next to the away fans. Not a large group of organised chanters engaging in banter at all, so an entirely different and less excitable scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EASTEND WURZEL Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Palace away last season Segregation was well over an entire block for that game in fact very similar to the EE segregation , if there is a considerable amount of 'no mans land' between fans with no solid divide they will try and breech it. Cardiff at home last season. you are correct with your appraisal of the clientèle in attendance for that game though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EASTEND WURZEL Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Yes, but that would never work at AG when the aim of the fans in the East End is to drown out the noise of the nearby away fans. At Villa, and other Premier League grounds, the fans next to the away fans are more than likely ordinary ST holding fans who sit in the same seat every week and just happened to have ended up with ST's in the seats next to the away fans. Not a large group of organised chanters engaging in banter at all, so an entirely different and less excitable scenario. From what i witnessed this would be not the case, there was a large section of the Villa crowd directly by the segregation who were stood (in moments of excitement) and engaged in full 'banter' with the Utd fans doing the aeroplane wing gesture and increasingly heated gestation. As you suggested they are probably ST holders and in a ground capable of holding over 40,000 they were more than happy to be 3ft from the away fans. The average age of this section mid 30s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bully Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 You are 100% correct. The real hooligans don't attend football matches anymore and violence is rare. I'm sure if you had the fans that close there would be no trouble - People don't want to get banned do they? Real hooligans do attend matches but behave in the ground and you're right, violence is rare which is a good thing for attracting families to football. You might get a juiced up ####### slinging a coin if it was completely open though - if one hit me, i'd possibly not worry too much about a ban or the consequences of steaming in even as someone old enough to know better, so god knows what would occur if something hit a 'main lad' so I personally think you do need to segregate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seend Red Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Didn't it kicked off at Eastlands between Man City and Everton recently? They just have a line of stewards and I think it proved why segregation is required as the potential is always there. It would only have to kick off once in the EE and the Police would be demanding it was returned to an away stand only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red man dan Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Didn't it kicked off at Eastlands between Man City and Everton recently? They just have a line of stewards and I think it proved why segregation is required as the potential is always there. It would only have to kick off once in the EE and the Police would be demanding it was returned to an away stand only. Thats the problem isnt it. Not having segregation could work for 99 per cent of the time perfectly(though i have my doubts), but the 1 per cent it doesnt work, would be unnacceptable. One riot, even fairly small at AG spells very bad news, for the club, the stand and the future policing, let alone the dangers of injury to those involved, innocent or not. Unfortunately the risk cant be taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4eveREDDy Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Thats the problem isnt it. Not having segregation could work for 99 per cent of the time perfectly(though i have my doubts), but the 1 per cent it doesnt work, would be unnacceptable. One riot, even fairly small at AG spells very bad news, for the club, the stand and the future policing, let alone the dangers of injury to those involved, innocent or not. Unfortunately the risk cant be taken. Which in a nutshell sums it all up why the young uns should not leave their seats and run towards the netting and if they do then expect a crack on the noggin, maybe the lads who are behind the Forza Eastend should get another leaflet printed reminding the young uns that they are doing the club, EE, no favours by acting like a load of idiots because at the end of the day we all loose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaxbourton Red Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Which in a nutshell sums it all up why the young uns should not leave their seats and run towards the netting and if they do then expect a crack on the noggin, maybe the lads who are behind the Forza Eastend should get another leaflet printed reminding the young uns that they are doing the club, EE, no favours by acting like a load of idiots because at the end of the day we all loose why should they? they've asked for perspex plastic screens with netting as is standard across europe you just want to see young people attacked by the police weird Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayer Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 why should they? they've asked for perspex plastic screens with netting as is standard across europe you just want to see young people attacked by the police weird Flax, its no good calling people names on this forum to get your point across. At the end of the day, there is NO perspex installed and there are coppers there instead. If the kids want to act tough and run at them, they they will have to expect a copper being 'tough' back at them. If the young hoodys don't run at the police acting tough, they wont get hurt. It is the same outside of the ground in towns/cities as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaxbourton Red Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Flax, its no good calling people names on this forum to get your point across. At the end of the day, there is NO perspex installed and there are coppers there instead. If the kids want to act tough and run at them, they they will have to expect a copper being 'tough' back at them. If the young hoodys don't run at the police acting tough, they wont get hurt. It is the same outside of the ground in towns/cities as well. no it's not the same as outside the ground outside the ground real crimes occur, youngsters are knifing each other, breaking into your car etc meanwhile huge police resources and council tax are wasted in the eastend with this tough cop act put the perspex screens up, the youngsters can then install their own treadmill next to the netting, and the police can do some real work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrs Court Red Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 no it's not the same as outside the ground outside the ground real crimes occur, youngsters are knifing each other, breaking into your car etc meanwhile huge police resources and council tax are wasted in the eastend with this tough cop act put the perspex screens up, the youngsters can then install their own treadmill next to the netting, and the police can do some real work The fence didn't work, because of the clowns climbing on it, and perspect screens ARE NOT foolproof like you suggest. A certain dutch club in France last year...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyal cider Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Just back to the original post. I was sat a block and a half away from the netting. When the chant 'who are you' started, i joined in. Just for that a copper grabbed me on the shoulder and shouted at me for singing a well known song. Just to confirm i didnt run over nor was sat near the netting! Not sure what that was all about, didnt seem fair! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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