Ralph Milne Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 anyone know if we are having one for the 20th anniversary of hillsborough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bully Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 anyone know if we are having one for the 20th anniversary of hillsborough? Cant see why personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecko Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Why should we? In now way has it affected us and it doesn't involve us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Milne Posted April 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Cant see why personally. think it was something not not only affected Liverpool but every football fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bully Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 think it was something not not only affected Liverpool but every football fan. So did Heysel but i'm not sure the Scousers remember that so dilligently because it was only Italians who died - i'll stand corrected on that point of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slartibartfast Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Everyone I speake to is fed up with it (I think loads of people are but don't like to say)! Scousers love this victim mentality. Why is there no national day of mourning for the Bradford people or the Ibrox ones, it really annoys me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Red Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Everyone I speake to is fed up with it (I think loads of people are but don't like to say)! Scousers love this victim mentality. Why is there no national day of mourning for the Bradford people or the Ibrox ones, it really annoys me! Agree it was a terrible day and should never be forgotton. But much terrible things have happened that don't ever seem to get remembered in the way Hillsbrough does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garlicbread Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Why should we? In now way has it affected us and it doesn't involve us. It has affected the older city fans who prefered to stand on the east end terraces Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonwheeler Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Fair shout to Brad for wearing a black arm band in memory today - Nice gesture and means fellow fans will never be forgotten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Red Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 So did Heysel but i'm not sure the Scousers remember that so dilligently because it was only Italians who died - i'll stand corrected on that point of course. You're not wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dollymarie Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Fair shout to Brad for wearing a black arm band in memory today - Nice gesture and means fellow fans will never be forgotten Dele did aswell. Here here. I have a friend from Liverpool who lost friends and loved ones that day. People should show some respect, I'm glad two of our players took it upon themselves to do that today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freezer Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 It wouldn't have done any harm to have had a minutes silence today. The 96 football fans who died did so because of errors of judgement by those entrusted with their safety. The subsequent cover-up to mask the true events of that day has still not been recognised by the powers that be. Justice for the 96. The truth of that days events should be known. As football fans we all deserve to be treated with some respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bringbacktherobin Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 The 96 football fans who died did so because of errors of judgement by those entrusted with their safety. The subsequent cover-up to mask the true events of that day has still not been recognised by the powers that be. Very true, shame the cover up is still happening to this day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Milne Posted April 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 It wouldn't have done any harm to have had a minutes silence today. The 96 football fans who died did so because of errors of judgement by those entrusted with their safety. The subsequent cover-up to mask the true events of that day has still not been recognised by the powers that be. Justice for the 96. The truth of that days events should be known. As football fans we all deserve to be treated with some respect. 100% agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidNoble Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 It wouldn't have done any harm to have had a minutes silence today. The 96 football fans who died did so because of errors of judgement by those entrusted with their safety. The subsequent cover-up to mask the true events of that day has still not been recognised by the powers that be. Justice for the 96. The truth of that days events should be known. As football fans we all deserve to be treated with some respect. I'm only 15 so don't really know what happened at all. Can you tell me what this 'cover-up' is that some people are going on about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bringbacktherobin Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 I'm only 15 so don't really know what happened at all. Can you tell me what this 'cover-up' is that some people are going on about? Mainly blaming it all on terracing which isn't true at all. People died on terracing not because of terracing. There were two Taylor reports and a lot of people don't know that there were two, plus a lot of recommendation to this day are still not in place but they focussed so massively on standing. Things like it was the policemans 1st time in charge of a big game is reported little, plus the fact that many of the clubs safety certificates were out of date or not valid. The lack of signs in the lepping lane end, so when the exit gates were opened to ease the congestion outside a lot of fans went straight down the middle tunnel which said "STANDING" and into the already overly crowded pens. The attempts to try and blame the liverpool fans for it, its the reason why many in liverpool still do not buy the sun newspaper to this day. Look at the facts below about little things like how little turnstiles there were for liverpool fans compared to forest fans. Have a read of this, i know it is long but it contains the truth and is from http://www.susd.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=28 - The Hillsborough Stadium disaster on 15th April 1989 killed 96 people. - It is widely believed that the disaster would not have occurred had the ground been all seater, something we believe is simplistic and far from the truth. - There were a wide range of factors contributing to the tragedy. Our aim here is to bring out the main ones and look and how things have changed since. The Taylor Report - In his investigations into the causes of the disaster, Lord Taylor produced two reports, an Interim Report and a Final Report. - The Interim Report looked at the causes of the disaster, and made a few short-term recommendations - The Final Report looked at the game in broader detail, examining issues such as membership cards and all-seater stadiums. - References are from Taylor`s interim report, unless stated otherwise. Hillsborough Stadium - The disaster occurred in the Leppings Lane End of Hillsborough. - The Leppings Lane End was a two tier stand, with seating above and terracing below. - The standing area had a capacity of 10,100, divided into seven sections with fences dividing them. One of these, pen 5, was a narrow unused sction, used for segregation. Thus six pens were used. The central two were pens 3 & 4. - There was also a fence at the front, whose aim was to stop supporters invading the pitch. - Supporters entered the terrace from the back. - Once through the turnstiles, there were three entrances onto the standing area. One led to pens 1&2, another to pens 6&7, the third to the central pens 3&4. - The police had advised the capacity of the terrace was too high, but this advice had been ignored by the club. The causes of the disaster - 'The disaster happened because pens three and four became dangerously overcrowded` (para 116) - The reasons why can be broken into two broad headings. 1. Overcrowding during the build up to the game 2. A large influx of people caused by the opening of an external gate at 2.52. The overcrowding of pens 3&4 - Taylor assigns three causes to this, the most significant being the design of the Leppings Lane End. - Once supporters entered the ground, they had three routes to the terrace (para 44) - They could head right around the corner of the stand to pens 1&2. Alternatively, they could head around the left side to pens 6&7. Neither were signed. - The obvious route was ahead through a tunnel with a big 'Standing` sign above it. This led to pens 3&4. - In addition, the area directly behind the goal was more popular than the area behind the corner flags, so more supporters would naturally wish to stand there. - The result, was that during the build up to the game the central pens became uncomfortably crowded. Meanwhile, there was plenty of space to the sides. - No actions were taken to address the issues, such as closing the tunnel to the central pens. The large influx of people at 2.52pm - Nottingham Forest supporters were given 29,800 tickets in the East and South Stands. These were serviced by sixty turnstiles, one per 497 spectators (para 31). - Liverpool supporters were allocated 24,256 spaces in the North and West Stands. These were served by only twenty-three turnstiles. Of this, the standing section (the Leppings Lane lower tier) had only seven turnstiles for 10,100 people. At one per 1,443 people, this was barely 1/ 3 of the supporter - turnstile ratio at the Penistone End. - It was felt that each turnstile, operating at full capacity, could admit 1,000 spectators per hour. Even by this optimistic prediction, it would take one and a half hours to admit all the people into the terrace. Thus it was essential that many entered the ground very early. - In practice, this did not happen. The result was that 'between 2.40pm and 2.45pm the build up of the crowd inside and outside the turnstile approach had swelled to 5,000` (para 65). The late arrival was due, in part, to traffic delays. - The resultant crush was worsened by concerns about getting into the ground, as kick-off had not been delayed beyond 3pm. - This lead to fears that there would be injuries or even fatalities. The decision was taken to open Gate C (a gate next to the turnstiles for the standing area) at 2.52pm. - Crucially, however, the tunnel to pens 3&4 was not shut off, so many supporters took this route. Those already on the terrace were trapped and such was the crowd behind they could not turn back. - Fenced in on all sides, the result was that many were crushed to death. How do Safe Standing areas differ from the Hillsborough Terraces - In our view, the safety of a ground is not determined by whether it is all-seated. - Similar disasters have occured in all-seater grounds, such as the Ellis Park tragedy in South Africa in 2001, when 43 people were crushed to death. - We believe that all areas of grounds, standing and seated, should be designed and managed to ensure a high level of safety. - Over the past twenty years, great strides have been made from Hillsborough style terraces to modern Safe Standing areas. Some of these, such as those in Burton Albion`s new Pirelli Stadium, have been built very recently. The key features include: - The installation of extra turnstiles, to prevent a build up of spectators outside the ground. - Careful setting of ground capacities to prevent overcrowding inside. - Strengthening of barriers, including rigorous testing of their strength every couple of years. - Better marking of gangways. - A removal of perimeter fencing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exiledinwatford Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 I'm only 15 so don't really know what happened at all. Can you tell me what this 'cover-up' is that some people are going on about? Alfi - I think "Cover Up" is a little dramatic. I believe there were a number of errors/mis-judgements that led to the disaster. The blame was originally laid at the door of drunken Liverpool fans who allegedly turned up late. Subsequently it appeared that the cause of the disaster was the decision by Police to open certain gates to alleviate a potential disaster OUTSIDE the stadium that led to the huge crowd getting into the Leppings Lane End and causing the terrible crush. Fans could not spill onto the pitch because they were all fenced-in in those days. Hillsboro was thankfully a very rare occurrance considering the number of football matches that took place. Police and football clubs just "muddled along" managing security, mainly ensuring segregation for the most part. Hindsight is a great thing and it's difficult to blame anyone for the 96 lives lost although blame is fashionable. Good thing is that safety has become paramount these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidNoble Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Mainly blaming it all on terracing which isn't true at all. People died on terracing not because of terracing. There were two Taylor reports and a lot of people don't know that there were two, plus a lot of recommendation to this day are still not in place but they focussed so massively on standing. Things like it was the policemans 1st time in charge of a big game is reported little, plus the fact that many of the clubs safety certificates were out of date or not valid. The lack of signs in the lepping lane end, so when the exit gates were opened to ease the congestion outside a lot of fans went straight down the middle tunnel which said "STANDING" and into the already overly crowded pens. The attempts to try and blame the liverpool fans for it, its the reason why many in liverpool still do not buy the sun newspaper to this day. Look at the facts below about little things like how little turnstiles there were for liverpool fans compared to forest fans. Have a read of this, i know it is long but it contains the truth and is from http://www.susd.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=28 - The Hillsborough Stadium disaster on 15th April 1989 killed 96 people. - It is widely believed that the disaster would not have occurred had the ground been all seater, something we believe is simplistic and far from the truth. - There were a wide range of factors contributing to the tragedy. Our aim here is to bring out the main ones and look and how things have changed since. The Taylor Report - In his investigations into the causes of the disaster, Lord Taylor produced two reports, an Interim Report and a Final Report. - The Interim Report looked at the causes of the disaster, and made a few short-term recommendations - The Final Report looked at the game in broader detail, examining issues such as membership cards and all-seater stadiums. - References are from Taylor`s interim report, unless stated otherwise. Hillsborough Stadium - The disaster occurred in the Leppings Lane End of Hillsborough. - The Leppings Lane End was a two tier stand, with seating above and terracing below. - The standing area had a capacity of 10,100, divided into seven sections with fences dividing them. One of these, pen 5, was a narrow unused sction, used for segregation. Thus six pens were used. The central two were pens 3 & 4. - There was also a fence at the front, whose aim was to stop supporters invading the pitch. - Supporters entered the terrace from the back. - Once through the turnstiles, there were three entrances onto the standing area. One led to pens 1&2, another to pens 6&7, the third to the central pens 3&4. - The police had advised the capacity of the terrace was too high, but this advice had been ignored by the club. The causes of the disaster - 'The disaster happened because pens three and four became dangerously overcrowded` (para 116) - The reasons why can be broken into two broad headings. 1. Overcrowding during the build up to the game 2. A large influx of people caused by the opening of an external gate at 2.52. The overcrowding of pens 3&4 - Taylor assigns three causes to this, the most significant being the design of the Leppings Lane End. - Once supporters entered the ground, they had three routes to the terrace (para 44) - They could head right around the corner of the stand to pens 1&2. Alternatively, they could head around the left side to pens 6&7. Neither were signed. - The obvious route was ahead through a tunnel with a big 'Standing` sign above it. This led to pens 3&4. - In addition, the area directly behind the goal was more popular than the area behind the corner flags, so more supporters would naturally wish to stand there. - The result, was that during the build up to the game the central pens became uncomfortably crowded. Meanwhile, there was plenty of space to the sides. - No actions were taken to address the issues, such as closing the tunnel to the central pens. The large influx of people at 2.52pm - Nottingham Forest supporters were given 29,800 tickets in the East and South Stands. These were serviced by sixty turnstiles, one per 497 spectators (para 31). - Liverpool supporters were allocated 24,256 spaces in the North and West Stands. These were served by only twenty-three turnstiles. Of this, the standing section (the Leppings Lane lower tier) had only seven turnstiles for 10,100 people. At one per 1,443 people, this was barely 1/ 3 of the supporter - turnstile ratio at the Penistone End. - It was felt that each turnstile, operating at full capacity, could admit 1,000 spectators per hour. Even by this optimistic prediction, it would take one and a half hours to admit all the people into the terrace. Thus it was essential that many entered the ground very early. - In practice, this did not happen. The result was that 'between 2.40pm and 2.45pm the build up of the crowd inside and outside the turnstile approach had swelled to 5,000` (para 65). The late arrival was due, in part, to traffic delays. - The resultant crush was worsened by concerns about getting into the ground, as kick-off had not been delayed beyond 3pm. - This lead to fears that there would be injuries or even fatalities. The decision was taken to open Gate C (a gate next to the turnstiles for the standing area) at 2.52pm. - Crucially, however, the tunnel to pens 3&4 was not shut off, so many supporters took this route. Those already on the terrace were trapped and such was the crowd behind they could not turn back. - Fenced in on all sides, the result was that many were crushed to death. How do Safe Standing areas differ from the Hillsborough Terraces - In our view, the safety of a ground is not determined by whether it is all-seated. - Similar disasters have occured in all-seater grounds, such as the Ellis Park tragedy in South Africa in 2001, when 43 people were crushed to death. - We believe that all areas of grounds, standing and seated, should be designed and managed to ensure a high level of safety. - Over the past twenty years, great strides have been made from Hillsborough style terraces to modern Safe Standing areas. Some of these, such as those in Burton Albion`s new Pirelli Stadium, have been built very recently. The key features include: - The installation of extra turnstiles, to prevent a build up of spectators outside the ground. - Careful setting of ground capacities to prevent overcrowding inside. - Strengthening of barriers, including rigorous testing of their strength every couple of years. - Better marking of gangways. - A removal of perimeter fencing. That is long but i sort of understand it now. Quite ridiculous how 96 people could lose their life watching sport and they blame it on that they stood up. Surely if that happened for seating it would be worse because their would be less space to move your feet around. Even I, a 15 year old school boy, would know that if you are putting a fence up at the back at least make it possible to wind down or something so if something like that does happen they can all get onto the pitch. To think their were dead bodies mushed up against the front of that stand is disgusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freezer Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 I'm only 15 so don't really know what happened at all. Can you tell me what this 'cover-up' is that some people are going on about? alfi, if you want to know what happened might I suggest reading 'Hillsborough - The Truth' by Phil Scraton, then you can make your own mind up about this disaster, but be warned, it's a disturbing read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garlicbread Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Mainly blaming it all on terracing which isn't true at all. People died on terracing not because of terracing. Loads of factors involved such as the layout of the stand, the fact that the police panicked and opened the gates, police not ushering fans into empty pens... and all not helped by the fact that a second wave of fans turned up pretty much at the sme time because of the road works between sheffield and liverpool. However, this wouldnt have happened had it been seating. Such an awful tragedy waiting to happen and for those who have been in the old EE when packed...no suprise. But I'm still furious that all seater stadia is forced on all because of Hillsboroughba....cordens would've sufficed. Unfortunately a rocking terraced EE is all but memories...a great shame and a bit unnecessary in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bringbacktherobin Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 However, this wouldnt have happened had it been seating. /quote] Overcrowding in seated areas have been documented since hillsbrough happened. Surely a statement like, "If there were no fences, it wouldn't have happened" Would be more truthful. If terracing is so dangerous why is it still allowed in the lower divisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almondsbury_red Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Loads of factors involved such as the layout of the stand, the fact that the police panicked and opened the gates, police not ushering fans into empty pens... and all not helped by the fact that a second wave of fans turned up pretty much at the sme time because of the road works between sheffield and liverpool. However, this wouldnt have happened had it been seating. Such an awful tragedy waiting to happen and for those who have been in the old EE when packed...no suprise. But I'm still furious that all seater stadia is forced on all because of Hillsboroughba....cordens would've sufficed. Unfortunately a rocking terraced EE is all but memories...a great shame and a bit unnecessary in my view. Yet terracing is deemed safe in the lower two divisions? The same results would of occured if it was in a seated area. Being in a terrace isn't unsafe if correctly managed, however if we are to move on and be allowed standing areas in the future the german model safe standing is the way froward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frome Valley Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Why should we? In now way has it affected us and it doesn't involve us. I can still remember the day and the watching the tv in a pub with City fans who were utterly silent. If the suffering and deaths didn't affect you in any way :noexpression: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bully Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 I can still remember the day and the watching the tv in a pub with City fans who were utterly silent. If the suffering and deaths didn't affect you in any way :noexpression: It was awful - so was Heysel and so was Bradford for different reasons but they all involved substantial loss of life. Remember all of them or none of them but don't be selective IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frome Valley Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 It was awful - so was Heysel and so was Bradford for different reasons but they all involved substantial loss of life. Remember all of them or none of them but don't be selective IMO. Its not selective. Similar could have happened to our club or any others and those 96 deaths can't be put down as being accidental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bully Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Its not selective. Similar could have happened to our club or any others and those 96 deaths can't be put down as being accidental. Sorry I don't get your point. Heysel can't be put down as an accident either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frome Valley Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Sorry I don't get your point. Heysel can't be put down as an accident either People went to jail over Heysel. 96 people at Hillsborough died according to the coroner due to an accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bully Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 People went to jail over Heysel. 96 people at Hillsborough died according to the coroner due to an accident. People died at Heysel just like Hillsborough - what difference does it make what caused them to be crushed? The difference is possibly that the victims at Heysel were Italians Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frome Valley Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 People died at Heysel just like Hillsborough - what difference does it make what caused them to be crushed? The difference is possibly that the victims at Heysel were Italians Nobody has ever been held responsible for Hillsborough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 There was a very good article on Hillsborough in yesterdays Times. It's online and well worth a read: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/foo...icle6083159.ece Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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