Old Heads: Quigley; Kellard - And Hartley..?

[CliftonCliff]

This has been debated already to some degree on the main Hartley thread, but I have been thinking about the topic in a more historical context. The older forum members out there will recall these guys, who I remember as having a big impact on the City teams of their day. Might Hartley make a similiar impression?

John Quigley was, I think, ex-Forest (in a period when Forest were a successful club) and a former Scottish international; a pint-sized bloke probably no bigger than Lee Johnson, but a rather different midfield player - extremely combative and tenacious, but at the same time with a very good football brain and good passing ability. One abiding memory, and one of the funniest scenes I have witnessed in football, was the sight of Quigley squaring up to the Coventry centre half George Curtis, who was a huge beast of a man. He was frightened of nothing and the side revolved around him.

Kellard was also a very accomplished player who, like JQ, bossed the game from midfield. A bit of a difficult character, I think, who may not have been too popular with the other players, but he was quality. He didn't stay anywhere for very long (rather like McIndoe in that respect). I forget his previous clubs, but I think Palace and Portsmouth may have been among them, again in the days when these clubs were way above us in the league. A strong personality who was usually made captain wherever he played, as he was at City. (So for that matter was Quigley). I also have a feeling he was on the fringes of the England side for a time, though I can't remember if he ever won a full cap.

The general point I am making is that bringing in older players who have played at a higher level at a late stage in their careers can pay dividends (though other forum members will no doubt be able to offer plenty of examples where it has backfired). Gary Johnson has commented that he doesn't often sign players over 30 (though there are exceptions). I am quite encouraged by the Hartley signing. I knew little of him when his name first came up, but the more I read about him, the more reminded I am of players like the two I've mentioned. He may be 32, but he doesn't sound like the sort of bloke who has come here for the last couple of years of his career to earn a few quid to top up his pension fund and generally have a bit of a cushy time. He still seems to be hungry and to have things he wants to achieve in the game. The fact that he might have the prospect of appearing in World Cup is a major bonus for us, in that it constitutes a big motivation for him, if indeed he needs any.

Quigley and Kellard at 30+ were still very competitive, and brought leadership to the teams they played in. I sense this guy might be the same. It will also not surprise me if he takes the captain's armband at some stage. I wonder if anyone can think of other examples of this type of signing at City over the years? Tinnion was a similar influence towards the end of his playing days, but this is somewhat different in that he was not brought in at over 30 to do this specific job, but rather grew into it over the course of a long City career; nor was he ever made club captain, as far as I can recall.

[WickwarRed]

Norman Hunter would be one of the best...

[tompo]

I'll throw in the name of another player in the Quigley/Kellard mould from that era - Ernie Hunt.

[RedM]

It's all about having the right blend isn't it. Also what was considered old 40, or even 20 years ago are now players in their prime. There is no excuse now for players at any level not to be aware of diet and exercise needs. Some players are naturally able to play later than others, eg Teddy Sherringham was regularly reported to be out having a good social life but he played on, so it doesn't always follow.

Youngsters are still learning the game and are yet to be still fully developed physically and mentally. Older players have been there and done it, learnt from mistakes and know what works, experience in other words.

I think in most jobs you learn your trade from experienced, often older people. Football isn't any different is it?

[CliftonCliff]

Hunter certainly comes into the category I was thinking about, though I particularly had in mind midfield players. Hunter was a huge presence, though, regardless of position, and certainly held the side together in many ways. Most supporters from that era would say that things started to go on the slide when he left us.

With all due respect to Ernie Hunt, who had been a fine player, I tend to remember him rather differently as one who came here to be put quietly out to grass in the twilight of his playing days. There was a telling quote from, I think, Billy Bremner, when we were drawn against Leeds in the FA Cup. As I recall, Bremner was dismissive of him and said something along the lines of " Hunt rents a patch of grass out on the left touchline near half-way and rarely moves from it". I wouldn't put him in the same bracket as the others, who were leaders and mentors to the younger players and who dominated the team.

When Danny Wilson was manager he often referred to a quest to sign players who showed "leadership qualities" on the field. He was after Neil Redfearn at one time, for example, if anyone remembers him. Danny never did find the right man, and with hindsight it might be suggested that he was looking for a player who could do something that he as manager had not been able to do - that is, someone would have the effect of licking some discipline into the talented but rather wayward younger guys who we had at the time.

The reason I am referring so much to players from bygone days is that I think these big personalities can have a very positive effect on a team if you find the right bloke, but they are not easily come by, and I don't think we have had anyone of that stature for quite a long time. At least, I am struggling to think of one from the modern era. If Hartley comes close to fulfilling the Quigley/Kellard/Hunter function, Johnson will have unearthed a bit of a gem. I am very much looking forward to seeing how this man influences the team.

[Guest]

Recently; How about Tinman :noexpression: how old was he when he made that ill fated choice of managership? Could certainly spray the ball around and had a shot on him.

[slartibartfast]

This has been debated already to some degree on the main Hartley thread, but I have been thinking about the topic in a more historical context. The older forum members out there will recall these guys, who I remember as having a big impact on the City teams of their day. Might Hartley make a similiar impression?

John Quigley was, I think, ex-Forest (in a period when Forest were a successful club) and a former Scottish international; a pint-sized bloke probably no bigger than Lee Johnson, but a rather different midfield player - extremely combative and tenacious, but at the same time with a very good football brain and good passing ability. One abiding memory, and one of the funniest scenes I have witnessed in football, was the sight of Quigley squaring up to the Coventry centre half George Curtis, who was a huge beast of a man. He was frightened of nothing and the side revolved around him.

Kellard was also a very accomplished player who, like JQ, bossed the game from midfield. A bit of a difficult character, I think, who may not have been too popular with the other players, but he was quality. He didn't stay anywhere for very long (rather like McIndoe in that respect). I forget his previous clubs, but I think Palace and Portsmouth may have been among them, again in the days when these clubs were way above us in the league. A strong personality who was usually made captain wherever he played, as he was at City. (So for that matter was Quigley). I also have a feeling he was on the fringes of the England side for a time, though I can't remember if he ever won a full cap.

The general point I am making is that bringing in older players who have played at a higher level at a late stage in their careers can pay dividends (though other forum members will no doubt be able to offer plenty of examples where it has backfired). Gary Johnson has commented that he doesn't often sign players over 30 (though there are exceptions). I am quite encouraged by the Hartley signing. I knew little of him when his name first came up, but the more I read about him, the more reminded I am of players like the two I've mentioned. He may be 32, but he doesn't sound like the sort of bloke who has come here for the last couple of years of his career to earn a few quid to top up his pension fund and generally have a bit of a cushy time. He still seems to be hungry and to have things he wants to achieve in the game. The fact that he might have the prospect of appearing in World Cup is a major bonus for us, in that it constitutes a big motivation for him, if indeed he needs any.

Quigley and Kellard at 30+ were still very competitive, and brought leadership to the teams they played in. I sense this guy might be the same. It will also not surprise me if he takes the captain's armband at some stage. I wonder if anyone can think of other examples of this type of signing at City over the years? Tinnion was a similar influence towards the end of his playing days, but this is somewhat different in that he was not brought in at over 30 to do this specific job, but rather grew into it over the course of a long City career; nor was he ever made club captain, as far as I can recall.

Totally agree with above sentiments, just a couple of fillers... Quig came to us from Hudders. though he DID play for Forest before. He was unlucky not to get capped as at the time Scotland had Dave Mckay and Jim Baxter in Midfield.

back was only about 27 when he joined us from Pompey (£35K which would be about £750K now) but he had a very old "head". Left us to take Leicester up to the First!

Very good player.

[Old Dazzler]

Gary Shelton was another player who came to us (in exchange for Steve MacLaren who was quite disappointing during his stint here) and we got promoted at the end of his first season.

Excellent busy central midfielder whose partnership in CM with the under-rated Dave Rennie brought a great balance to the side. He scored a few goals as well

Bob Taylor's goals helped as well, not to mention speed merchant Dave Smith.

Another player who came to us near the end of his playing days, but had a big effect on the team, also resulting in a promotion was Shaun Taylor, worth every penny of the £100,000 we paid Swindon.

[lotusman]

The Shelton swap was great business for us and his goal scoring ability was outstanding, certainly our present class would be put to shame.Another impressive feature was his commitment to tackling,far from big in stature he never shirked a challenge and "punched way above his weight".

[SecretSam]

Gary Shelton was another player who came to us (in exchange for Steve MacLaren who was quite disappointing during his stint here) and we got promoted at the end of his first season.

Excellent busy central midfielder whose partnership in CM with the under-rated Dave Rennie brought a great balance to the side. He scored a few goals as well

Bob Taylor's goals helped as well, not to mention speed merchant Dave Smith.

Another player who came to us near the end of his playing days, but had a big effect on the team, also resulting in a promotion was Shaun Taylor, worth every penny of the £100,000 we paid Swindon.

Blimey, wouldn't it be great if we could have modern day versions of that lot!!!! I always thought Dave Rennie was a class act, and Smith was without doubt the quickest player I've ever seen at the gate - if only he had been able to cross the ball! But technically, neither Smith nor God Taylor were oldies

So here's another golden oldie: step forward Mr J Jordan, 100% every time.

[CliftonCliff]

Thanks to the guys who've put me straight on some of the historical details, particularly with regard to Quigley and Kellard. (Well, it was a very long time ago and the old memory's going a bit).

Shaun Taylor is a very good shout. I'd forgotten about him. Very strong presence on the field and the sort of influential player I was talking about. A leader.

I did think of Shelton and Rennie, both of whom I admired, but neither were really here for all that long. Mind you, in the comparatively short time they were around, boy did they deliver! The side that Joe Jordan put together containing these two was, for me, the best team City have produced between the old Alan Dicks First Division days and the present era. Terrific, exhilarating, attacking football with two good wingers, a dominant midfield and, of course, God up front. (And there was Joe himself, as someone has said, though I think he'd hung up his boots to concentrate on mangement by then).

Agree about Rennie. Fans used to mock him because he had no pace and could look ponderous, but he could stroke an inch-accurate forty yard pass off either foot and make it look like he could do it in his sleep. Not for nothing did he leave us to play at Coventry for several seasons in the top division. Nicky Morgan was some player, too, while we're on the subject.

Tinnion was of course the last player to stand head and shoulders above the rest and run the game from midfield, but strictly speaking doesn't fit into my original category of guys who have been brought in late in their careers from a higher level to add experience and a wise old head to a developing team. It was Hartley's signing that prompted the thought. If he contributes anything like these other blokes did, it will be a pleasure to watch.

[Pewsham]

Norman Hunter would be one of the best...

Peter Cormack and Joe Royle played a vital role too - neither were spring chickens when they signed on the dotted line. The key signature though was definitely Hunter.

[CliftonCliff]

Peter Cormack and Joe Royle played a vital role too - neither were spring chickens when they signed on the dotted line. The key signature though was definitely Hunter.

Yep. Stylish player, Cormack. Very cultured. And Royle made a debut at Ashton Gate that has probably never been surpassed, before or since.

When memories are pooled, we've had quite a few of these seasoned campaigners over the years. Thanks for all the interesting contributions.

[Redbarn]

How about Glen Humphries, a real hardman. Would always give 100%.

[wiggles]

Aizlewood, Osman, Joe Jordan, John Bailey, Leroy Rosenior.

I posted at the end of last season that we should look to the Premier League for players towards the end of their career, for invaluable experience.

I was shouted down in the main, because many believed we would only succeed in attracting mercenaries.

Looks like we've targeted the SPL as a cheaper alternative.

Seem like a good move to me.

[Old Dazzler]

No-one's mentiond Gary Stanley yet.

:noexpression:

[CliftonCliff]

Aizlewood, Osman, Joe Jordan, John Bailey, Leroy Rosenior.

I posted at the end of last season that we should look to the Premier League for players towards the end of their career, for invaluable experience.

I was shouted down in the main, because many believed we would only succeed in attracting mercenaries.

Looks like we've targeted the SPL as a cheaper alternative.

Seem like a good move to me.

I remember that post Wiggles, and would have posted in support of it had I been registered as a member at the time. It is part of the reason I started this thread. There's plenty of historical evidence here to suggest that a discriminating choice of senior pro's from higher leagues can add something to a team. Of course, if Hartley turns out to be a complete turkey all your critics will say they told you so, but somehow I don't think he will. And I'm not too concerned about reports from Celtic fans that 'his legs have gone'. If we wanted somebody to run around like a headless chicken all day we wouldn't have signed a 23 year-old. They're missing the point.

[CliftonCliff]

I remember that post Wiggles, and would have posted in support of it had I been registered as a member at the time. It is part of the reason I started this thread. There's plenty of historical evidence here to suggest that a discriminating choice of senior pro's from higher leagues can add something to a team. Of course, if Hartley turns out to be a complete turkey all your critics will say they told you so, but somehow I don't think he will. And I'm not too concerned about reports from Celtic fans that 'his legs have gone'. If we wanted somebody to run around like a headless chicken all day we wouldn't have signed a 23 year-old. They're missing the point.

Correction: that last post should of course have read "wouldn't have signed a 32 year-old"!