Barrs Court Red Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Yes, that's what happens - criminalising them contributes massively to that. The only way most get help or treatment is after being convicted of a couple of hundred burglaries at the end of their prison time. If you make the drugs available with support at cost addicts don't need massive and increasing amounts of cash and they come to the attention of support services before they end up breaking the law. Where would be the motivation to come off drugs? Secondly, assuming that drugs were legalised, I'm assuming no one is advocating selling class a's like smack over the counter, how do you then combat the inevitable rise in Crystal Meth? How do you combat the black market? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Where would be the motivation to come off drugs? I don't think that motivation can ever be imposed externally, people have to develop it for themselves. What we can do though is remove the motivation to stay on drugs and make the process of getting off more accessible and easier. Right now, addicts end up living in crack den hovels off the proceeds of crime. They end up in prison. How can you expect someone in that situation to develop enough sense of self worth to get off drugs? Secondly, assuming that drugs were legalised, I'm assuming no one is advocating selling class a's like smack over the counter, how do you then combat the inevitable rise in Crystal Meth? What inevitable rise in Crystal Meth? All the evidence suggests that drug use decreases with decriminalization. How do you combat the black market? What black market? If drugs are legal, and class As are available at cost from a pharmacy with GP supervision, how are dealers going to make any money selling them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs08/hosb1308.pdf interestingly drug use is falling, and the amounts of people taking a chemicle substance likely to cause addiction just isn't that big. By the way, just had a look at that. Interestingly use of Class As is not falling. Overall drug use fall is attributable to successive falls in the use of cannabis. Cannabis use has fallen since 03/04. What happened then? It was downrated from B to C along with new advice to police on enforcement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrs Court Red Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 I don't think that motivation can ever be imposed externally, people have to develop it for themselves. What we can do though is remove the motivation to stay on drugs and make the process of getting off more accessible and easier. Right now, addicts end up living in crack den hovels off the proceeds of crime. They end up in prison. How can you expect someone in that situation to develop enough sense of self worth to get off drugs? Living in crack dens? I've met dozens who would love to know where these venues are, it would certainly beat the nightshelters or worse, the local park. I'd agree that there's not much that can be done to force people to give up, perhaps offer hope? There's little on offer for a recovering addict What inevitable rise in Crystal Meth? All the evidence suggests that drug use decreases with decriminalization. Oh yes, you think drugs gangs are going to stop selling. You think users are going to suddenly start trusting the state and do everything by the book. What black market? If drugs are legal, and class As are available at cost from a pharmacy with GP supervision, how are dealers going to make any money selling them? Cost price?? If drugs are legal, even on subscription do you honestly think non will be out there ready for new users? Abuse rises as tolerance levels grow. Do you think that there should be no limit to what an user to could "take" from the state in one go? That clearly wouldn't be feasable, so of course demand would be there. By the way, just had a look at that. Interestingly use of Class As is not falling. Overall drug use fall is attributable to successive falls in the use of cannabis. Cannabis use has fallen since 03/04. What happened then? It was downrated from B to C along with new advice to police on enforcement. Cannabis use has fallen since 2003, around the same time coke became the drug of choice for most people that could be classed as casual users as it's a far more social drug than having a smoke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrs Court Red Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 1995 Jan 1. Sweden becomes a member of the EU. One effect of EU's rules is a radical reduced control of illicit drugs at the borders. The Swedish customs authority stop making random controls on the traffic and passengers upon entering from EU countries; the number of employees in the Swedish customs authority is reduced.[citation needed] Surveys of illicit drug use last month show an almost doubled drug use among 16-year-old boys (from 5% to 10%, most cannabis) in year 2000. The level had previously been low and essentially stable since 1983 (below 5% last month for boys and 2% for girls).[20][25] 2000-2001 Professor Johannes Knutsson, Oslo concludes after a study of drug use and drug policy in Sweden that the "stricter enforcement contributed to Sweden by international standards has a lower percentage of young people who tried drugs There's a good wiki page, with the arguments for and against prohibition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Living in crack dens? I've met dozens who would love to know where these venues are, it would certainly beat the nightshelters or worse, the local park. I'd agree that there's not much that can be done to force people to give up, perhaps offer hope? There's little on offer for a recovering addict You can't ever force people to give up, it isn't possible. You can force them to pretend to but once they're out of the system they go back to it. You can only try to encourage by removing barriers to giving up and removing reasons to carry on. When addicts are by and large forced to become criminals, those barriers are higher. When they're trapped in that sort of lifestyle that itself is a reason to carry on. Oh yes, you think drugs gangs are going to stop selling. You think users are going to suddenly start trusting the state and do everything by the book. I think they're going to buy where it's cheaper and safer. Safe use schemes in Australia and the like would seem to support that. Cost price?? If drugs are legal, even on subscription do you honestly think non will be out there ready for new users? Abuse rises as tolerance levels grow. Do you think that there should be no limit to what an user to could "take" from the state in one go? That clearly wouldn't be feasable, so of course demand would be there. I don't think the problem vanishes but I do think it is likely to be drastically reduced. Tolerance levels grow as you say but if someone is coming into regular contact with healthcare professionals and support and being made constantly aware of the alternatives that genuinely exist I think they are much more likely to motivate themselves to give up. Why would people continue to pay a dealer? Cannabis use has fallen since 2003, around the same time coke became the drug of choice for most people that could be classed as casual users as it's a far more social drug than having a smoke. There is no link between cannabis and coke use. If there were, the survey you linked would show an increase in the number of people doing coke and it doesn't. The users for those drugs are usually different people in different scenarios. There's a good wiki page, with the arguments for and against prohibition. Yep, I would suggest that you should look at the research methodology carefully. One effect decriminalization can have is to increase reporting of something that was already happening since it's no longer illegal. If you look at the paper you linked they're very clear on how the self reporting was done to alleviate this, not sure about the other study. I am certainly aware that there are risks in decriminalization and if we went down that route we would need to do so gradually, with continual assessment of the impacts it was having. But what I'm not hearing from any of the advocates of prohibition is any constructive suggestions about what could be done instead to combat the drug and drug related crime problem this country undoubtedly has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazred Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 It was downrated from B to C along with new advice to police on enforcement. I thought the goverment was being quite progressive but from Jan 09 it was raised back up again to Class B with upto 5 years in prison for possession as part of the goverments 'protecting families and communities' strategy. When you consider things like Ketamine and Tranquilisers are only Class C, you really have to start wondering if the goverment have any kind of drugs strategy at all. Having seen the effects of Ketamine on its users, how the hell thats considered a softer drug than cannabis is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 I thought the goverment was being quite progressive but from Jan 09 it was raised back up again to Class B with upto 5 years in prison for possession as part of the goverments 'protecting families and communities' strategy. When you consider things like Ketamine and Tranquilisers are only Class C, you really have to start wondering if the goverment have any kind of drugs strategy at all. Having seen the effects of Ketamine on its users, how the hell thats considered a softer drug than cannabis is beyond me. Yep, I think upgrading it again was part of New Labour's "We know best" nanny state strategy under Gordon Brown. Apparently Wacky Jacqui Smith knows more about drugs and the community than do the medical experts who recommended it remain at class C. This all happened during the daily mail hysteria about skunk being stronger than it used to be and therefore everyone who smoked a spliff would end up a psychotic loony... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazred Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Well ive smoked my fair share so....... Wibble! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Yep, I think upgrading it again was part of New Labour's "We know best" nanny state strategy under Gordon Brown. Apparently Wacky Jacqui Smith knows more about drugs and the community than do the medical experts who recommended it remain at class C. This all happened during the daily mail hysteria about skunk being stronger than it used to be and therefore everyone who smoked a spliff would end up a psychotic loony... Jacqui '4 eyes Porn Mag' Smith is hardly a role model for dictating drug policy. Wacky Jacqui Smith has now got no intention of paying back the £106,000 she fraudulently took from us as taxpayers. Add to this the fact that she was the Home Secretary - and thus supreme Police Kommandant - at the time when the no standing at football was being most rigorously enforced. She also claimed from our taxes for Porn mags and Porn videos. No wonder drug policy is in such a mess under New Labour with the likes of Jacqui Smith tampering with it...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaxbourton Red Posted October 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Well done, you've missed the point, what a suprise. It begs the question, what work have you done with addicts? Surely you'd know one of the greatest problem isn't the rehab, it isn't the treatment, but the fact that when someone goes through all of that, they come straight back out into the same underclass community in the shelters and parks, the same peer pressure and the same threats Often the people that get into heroin or crack are vunerable, no amount of education will change this fact.. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs08/hosb1308.pdf interestingly drug use is falling, and the amounts of people taking a chemicle substance likely to cause addiction just isn't that big. what does it matter what work I've done with addicts? I would say it is none of your business. If you think there are enough rehab places available to treat those that want to stop, then dream on. also when you say drug use do you mean drug use as reported by the national crime survey? These stats may go up and down depending on how the data is collected. I don't believe there has been a recent explosion in heroin or canabis use, many drugs have social trends attatched to them wich increase or decrease their popularity. Demand and supply increases and decreases irrespective of legality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderHider Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Interesting that 92% of the worlds heroine comes from the Taliban in Afganistan, two bords with one stone? far to simple really, isint it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MATT BCFC Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 The whole cannabis is not that bad etc argument really pisses me off tbh! Cannabis is strongly linked to schizophrenia and if you know anyone who has smoked it for many years like I have you will notice the huge paranoia they suffer from it as well as being very much different from when they began smoking it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderHider Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 The whole cannabis is not that bad etc argument really pisses me off tbh! Cannabis is strongly linked to schizophrenia and if you know anyone who has smoked it for many years like I have you will notice the huge paranoia they suffer from it as well as being very much different from when they began smoking it. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8331038.stm Proff Nutt would disagree with you there.. Schizophrenia is a world away from the paranoia suffered by a few people smoking weed, which is not lasting anyhow. unlike cirrhosis of the liver caused by alcohol. Some of us smoke weed for that very effect anyways, it gives you a different perspective on things, there is a fine line between paranoia and healthy suspicion, I've come up with some outrageous and clever 5h1t smoking 5h1t. I dont remember being particularly articulate after 10 beers though..just utterly shitfaced and aggressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 The whole cannabis is not that bad etc argument really pisses me off tbh! Cannabis is strongly linked to schizophrenia and if you know anyone who has smoked it for many years like I have you will notice the huge paranoia they suffer from it as well as being very much different from when they began smoking it. I've been thinking about what you wrote and there are people I've known that have become really unstable and aggressive after years of cannabis smoking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 I've been thinking about what you wrote and there are people I've known that have become really unstable and aggressive after years of cannabis smoking. You should really be in Whitehall because it seems the government is keen to take anecdotal crap evidence like yours instead of scientific evidence. Cannabis might not be great for an individual's health but that is an adult's choice - just like it is an adult's choice to smoke, drink, eat macdonald's. Cannabis is scientifically proven to be less harmful than at least two of those vices but the prats in government seem to know better. What a cock Alan Johnson is. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8334774.stm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderHider Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 You should really be in Whitehall because it seems the government is keen to take anecdotal crap evidence like yours instead of scientific evidence. Cannabis might not be great for an individual's health but that is an adult's choice - just like it is an adult's choice to smoke, drink, eat macdonald's. Cannabis is scientifically proven to be less harmful than at least two of those vices but the prats in government seem to know better. What a cock Alan Johnson is. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8334774.stm Shhet!, I can't believe this lols... so if they don't like your opinion or it conflicts with what they want to hear they boot you out do they? Jeez, so this is how our government is run, oh why am i not surprised.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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