City Ben Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 I like the way this guy writes - excellent article on asymmetrical formations, and how this doesn't necessarily mean lack of balance: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/20...s-fabio-capello How does City's current playing style fit in to this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fka dagest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 I like the way this guy writes - excellent article on asymmetrical formations, and how this doesn't necessarily mean lack of balance: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/20...s-fabio-capello How does City's current playing style fit in to this? I haven't read the article but it's the Jonathan Wilson who wrote 'Inverting the Pyramid', which is a very good read about the history of football tactics. Amazon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Superb article. The English game was held back for years by its rigidity and most pundits (and many fans of the "get rid of it" mentality) still haven't got it I fear. The moronic misunderstanding among press and pundits of Gerrard's role under Capello (no guys he does not play left wing) is a classic example. Thanks for posting this, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindjuicer Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Key point: "That it is not symmetrical is irrelevant; far more important is that it is balanced." We don't play symmetrically at the moment. Haynes plays further forward and wider than Sno. LJ & Elliott tend to cover the space behind Haynes, and with Hartley playing very deep, it leaves Sno with about 1/5th of the pitch to himself. When we're caught on the counter, it's mostly behind Sno. Also, unless McAllister overlaps Sno, we have little width on the left. Hence the need for a left winger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tunley Legend Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 I agree that these articles are thought provoking and impressive but they are not the be all and end all. Football can still be a relatively simple game if played correctly and you really do not need a degree in Media Studies or any other subject for that matter to be able to understand it. Fans who use these articles to say that other people do not understand the game in the superior way that they do are pompous, plain arrogant and WRONG. In terms of how it all relates to Bristol City I think that GJ is trying to be too clever with our formations and attempting to cover all bases (defensive ones in particular) and that there are two burning issues:- Firstly, we are not balanced as a team and have very little width on the left which leaves no "out ball" for our defenders on that side and nowhere for our midfield players to go in tight attacking situations. Secondly we are talking about good Championship players here and NOT world class players. For example, Jamie McAllister is not good enough to carry out the dual attacking/defending role that Ashley Cole does so well for Chelsea (which is a reason why comparisons between our style of play and Chelsea's are simply not relevant). Another example is that Johnson has not managed to get Evander Sno playing the way Steven Gerrard does for England on that "left" hand side (use the term "left" loosely otherwise I will have people saying that I do not understand my assymmetrics and know nothing about football!!). But Cappello is a world class manager and Gerrard is a world class player so why would Johnson expect Sno, who is not world class, to be able to play the same way? The players we have are not good enough to play formations that are too clever - we have seen that a few times this season whenever a lower table team has rocked up and parked the team coach in front of the goalmouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcfcdziek Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Billy - great point about whacking it into the channels. On saturday, and pretty much every game i have watched us at home this season, when we have actually got the ball down and played on the green stuff, we have cut through teams. It seems we can only do it for 5\10 minute spells tho - then we return to the punt it long and hope something comes off mode Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC_Dan Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 An excellent and very enjoyable article, although a lot of it was really just a summary of his superb book. Formations and tactics are obviously of importance, especially when up against high quality opposition where every little factor counts, but I think they're less important than motivation, confidence and concentration. The first two give players the freedom to make the movements and inventive passes and the third makes sure that those movements and passes are accurate and correctly times. I maintain that, assuming the players aren't way below standard (which ours shouldn't be), poor quality football is a symptom of low confidence and motivation. If players have the confidence to make runs and to pick out others good football, and hopefully goals, will follow. If they don't there won't be any options other than the big hoof down the pitch, goals will be hard to come by and confidence will get ever lower in a vicious circle. I don't know what the answer is for City at the moment but personally I think I would drop McCombe and play a footballer at the back, drop Sno and play a solid central midfield of Hartley and Skuse with the creative Williams on one flank and the pacy Haynes on the other, with Maynard and either Clarkson or Saborio up front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 As Jim Royle would say "Balanced formations? My arsymmetrics!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindjuicer Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 I'm pretty sure we hoof it downfield regardless of options. As I understand it, we don't do this in training, only in matches. On Saturday, Hartley had to go all the way back to our penalty spot and demand the ball so that we didn't hoof it direct to the opposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lager loud Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 I'm pretty sure we hoof it downfield regardless of options. As I understand it, we don't do this in training, only in matches. On Saturday, Hartley had to go all the way back to our penalty spot and demand the ball so that we didn't hoof it direct to the opposition. I don't think we do hoof it regardless of options. I agree with billywedlock that a large part of the reason we did this on Saturday was that there was little or no movement ahead of the ball. We have the players to move the ball through the middle, but can only do this if someone makes himself available. Many times on Saturday Maynard and Haynes were standing still when we had possession around the half way line. That's not necessarily a problem if there's a midfielder or two moving ahead of the ball, into the "hole". Cole Skuse had started to do more of this before Orr's injury, and having someone as smart as Hartley in the midfield with him meant he was picked out. Some of our best football followed. For all his good qualities, LJ doesn't often get ahead of the ball (although it's noticeable he's done more of it this season) and if Marv does it he may score a screamer, but his passing isn't good enough for him just to develop the play. I'm not sure why Sno isn't doing more of it. Anyway, I'm no football theoretician, but having played and watched the game for about 40 years now, I've learned a few things. One of them is that it's hard to defend against (and a joy to play with) mobile forwards, especially if you can get a pair of them who move defenders across the pitch, creating space for others. When he first joined us I thought Maynard's movement was often poor, and that he improved a lot as his first year with us progressed. From time to time he lapses, though, and I think he did that for long spells on Saturday. If you're a defender/midfielder in possession of the ball somewhere near half way, you have 4 options: 1. Find a forward pass 2. Find a sideways/backwards pass, keeping possession 3. Hoof it into the channels/towards a big man, and hope 4. Dither and run the risk of losing possession I think the above is in the right order of preference - but you can only do No 1 if someone makes it relatively easy for you - which our midfield and forward players don't always do. I don't think for a moment this is deliberate and there are good teams out there who make it difficult - Sheffield Wednesday were a good example of that, if I remember rightly. But if you can get this right, I think with good enough players (which we have) you have a good chance of hitting the twin objectives of good results and good entertainment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Ferret Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Jonathan Wilson is a great football writer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazred Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Interesting read that. Ive no problem with any particular playing style or formation we use as long as it gets results. Our tendency to go long from the back hurts us as we simply do not have the right type of player on the other end of the pass. Unless you have a very specific type of forward who can receive those kind of balls effectively and bring others into the game, then it just isn't worth it, go backwards, sideways, anything but playing a long ball no matter how accurate up to a player who probably only has a 50-50 chance at best to keep the ball. At full strength with the current personnel i would play a 3-4-1-2, we have 3 decent central defenders, solid full backs and plenty of options in midfield and up front to accommodate this. Until a natural left footed winger appears its a more asymmetrical style for the time being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindjuicer Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Great post. I don't think we do hoof it regardless of options. I agree with billywedlock that a large part of the reason we did this on Saturday was that there was little or no movement ahead of the ball. We have the players to move the ball through the middle, but can only do this if someone makes himself available. Many times on Saturday Maynard and Haynes were standing still when we had possession around the half way line. Yep, one of Maynard's main weaknesses, Haynes usually better. That's not necessarily a problem if there's a midfielder or two moving ahead of the ball, into the "hole". Cole Skuse had started to do more of this before Orr's injury, and having someone as smart as Hartley in the midfield with him meant he was picked out. Some of our best football followed. For all his good qualities, LJ doesn't often get ahead of the ball (although it's noticeable he's done more of it this season) and if Marv does it he may score a screamer, but his passing isn't good enough for him just to develop the play. I'm not sure why Sno isn't doing more of it. Sno just doesn't have the stamina and is generally playing quite far forward. LJ did it more last season I thought, but Hartley was available when I noticed. 1. Find a forward pass 2. Find a sideways/backwards pass, keeping possession 3. Hoof it into the channels/towards a big man, and hope 4. Dither and run the risk of losing possession They can also bring it forwards themselves but #2 is the important one. I don't care if we pass it around for 3 mins - possession is a key part of psychology and it helps with scoring too. Only 3 of our defenders can pass the ball decently > 20 years (Ribeiro and Orr/McA on good days). Hoofing it to Sno seems to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC_Dan Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 They can also bring it forwards themselves but #2 is the important one. I don't care if we pass it around for 3 mins - possession is a key part of psychology and it helps with scoring too. The important thing is that passing it around must create space to allow #1. Simply passing the ball endlessly across the back line frustrates the crowd and increases the pressure to get the ball forward, leading to an aimless hoof. I don't care if we pass it around for 3 minutes so long as it goes somewhere. If all we're going to do is pass it for 3 minutes then give it away then it's no major improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lager loud Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 They can also bring it forwards themselves but #2 is the important one. I don't care if we pass it around for 3 mins - possession is a key part of psychology and it helps with scoring too. Only 3 of our defenders can pass the ball decently > 20 years (Ribeiro and Orr/McA on good days). Hoofing it to Sno seems to work. Fair point about bringing it forward themselves as another option: it's a pretty good way to make space elsewhere, too - Carey and Orr are probably the two who do this the most - with mixed results. I do enjoy watching Louis go on his occasional rampages, though! I'm not sure there are many defenders at this level who can hit long passes consistently well - which is why trying to get others to give an easier, shorter option is so important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lager loud Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 The important thing is that passing it around must create space to allow #1. Simply passing the ball endlessly across the back line frustrates the crowd and increases the pressure to get the ball forward, leading to an aimless hoof. I don't care if we pass it around for 3 minutes so long as it goes somewhere. If all we're going to do is pass it for 3 minutes then give it away then it's no major improvement. Agreed. If you do keep it though, and you have players moving around off the ball, a chance to do something more threatening will often appear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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