Lack of Action Man Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 Bit of a depressing thread to talk about but just wanted to see what everyone thinks our debts will be like this year? Things to consider are obviously all the signings made, keeping Basso on, the unfortunate Velicka injury as well as drops in attendances. Hopefully we might have recuperated a fair bit from tv coverage of the Cardiff cup games. Overall I think it could be towards the £8-9mil band this time around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 I'm expecting our loss for this season to be around the £8-9m mark. Of last year's £6.5m loss, around £1.5m was from one off expenditures related to the stadium prject. I expect we've made some more of those and we've got an increased wage bill and decreased revenue from lower ST sales. We also spent more (net) on transfers in the close season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityhead Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 Bit of a depressing thread to talk about but just wanted to see what everyone thinks our debts will be like this year? Things to consider are obviously all the signings made, keeping Basso on, the unfortunate Velicka injury as well as drops in attendances. Hopefully we might have recuperated a fair bit from tv coverage of the Cardiff cup games. Overall I think it could be towards the £8-9mil band this time around? If it was Tango or Risdale doing t books I would be worried, but as SL is in charge of finances lets leave it to the expert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcfcmike Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 If it was Tango or Risdale doing t books I would be worried, but as SL is in charge of finances lets leave it to the expert. Totally agree with that!! How ever i feel OBJ's figure of 8 or 9 million will not be to far away.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC&T Board Members Blagdon red Posted February 1, 2010 SC&T Board Members Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 It'll be no more than SL believes is manageable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eskay Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Should be enough kicking around to buy a couple of extra strikers!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernie from barrow gurney Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 I'm expecting our loss for this season to be around the £8-9m mark. Of last year's £6.5m loss, around £1.5m was from one off expenditures related to the stadium prject. I expect we've made some more of those and we've got an increased wage bill and decreased revenue from lower ST sales. We also spent more (net) on transfers in the close season. That's £200,000 per game of football played across the season. It's totally unsustainable. I also dont thing its right. Dont forget there are two companies, Bristol City FC and Ashton Gate Stadium http://www.footballeconomy.com/stats2/eng_bristolcity.htm The thing to watch is the debt owed to the owner(s). If SL leaves and someone else comes in that will need to be paid back. Look at the Portsmouth / Gaydamac situation. Currently all clubs are in the same rat race position. All owners face the dilemma of shooting for glory or facing harsh criticism from their fans, (or in our case both!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CotswoldRed Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 The thing to watch is the debt owed to the owner(s). If SL leaves and someone else comes in that will need to be paid back. I'm no expert, but I'm assuming that if SL wants to leave (sell) then someone will have to want to buy. If the debt situation is a shocker then he'll have to stay (at least on paper) won't he? If someone comes in then, by definition, at least they'll think the agreed terms of the debt repayment are manageable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrizzleRed Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Judging by last year's debt and the amount we've spent this year, 8 - 9 million sounds pretty likely. To provide a safety net, we should be producing our own saleable assets like Cardiff and Palace for instance. We all know both those clubs are deep in the financial 5h*t at the moment, but they have survived so far by producing a crop of young players. Palace sold Moses yesterday for 2.5 mill and at 18, he's about 3 years younger than arguably our best prospect Ribeiro, who is still being overlooked for our first team, even though Everton were reputed to have been tracking him a couple of years back. How much would we get for Ribs if we'd put him up for sale at the moment? Clubs generally only pay the money for players with first team experience at a decent level, so looking at it on a purely business footing, we'd be increasing our assets by playing the young players. If we currently found ourselves in Cardiff or Palace's situations, who the hell apart from Maynard would we we be able to cash in on to stay afloat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanhamreds Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 That's £200,000 per game of football played across the season. It's totally unsustainable. I also dont thing its right. Dont forget there are two companies, Bristol City FC and Ashton Gate Stadium http://www.footballe...bristolcity.htm The thing to watch is the debt owed to the owner(s). If SL leaves and someone else comes in that will need to be paid back. Look at the Portsmouth / Gaydamac situation. Currently all clubs are in the same rat race position. All owners face the dilemma of shooting for glory or facing harsh criticism from their fans, (or in our case both!) Not sure how accurate that web site is, check out the crowd stats for us and the gas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tunley Legend Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 £8-9 million I reckon. And some of the losses accumalated are very avoidable debts caused by Gary Johnson's forays into the transfer and loan markets. Styvar - transfer fee, decent wages and not good enough Saborio - high wages and not played Sno - high wages and not played Trundle - has just messed around picking up money for 12 of the last eighteen months Agyemang - WTF is that all about? Re-signing Frankie Artus and never playing him Collis - how many Goalkeepers do we need at the Gate? Velicka - not GJ's fault he got injured Iriekpen - did we really need to pay him a wage last season? Clarkson - transfer fee, decent wages and we are still signing forwards Looking at the above is it any wonder we have to accept whatever loan offers we can get for our youngsters - just to get them off the wage bill, fully or partially, for a bit!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Red Hat Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 £8-9 million I reckon. And some of the losses accumalated are very avoidable debts caused by Gary Johnson's forays into the transfer and loan markets. Styvar - transfer fee, decent wages and not good enough Saborio - high wages and not played Sno - high wages and not played Trundle - has just messed around picking up money for 12 of the last eighteen months Agyemang - WTF is that all about? Re-signing Frankie Artus and never playing him Collis - how many Goalkeepers do we need at the Gate? Velicka - not GJ's fault he got injured Iriekpen - did we really need to pay him a wage last season? Clarkson - transfer fee, decent wages and we are still signing forwards Looking at the above is it any wonder we have to accept whatever loan offers we can get for our youngsters - just to get them off the wage bill, fully or partially, for a bit!! Do you think SL asks these questions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tunley Legend Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Do you think SL asks these questions? I would if I was him. Perhaps he has and was satisfied with the answers given and/or feels that GJ will get there in the end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keep the Faith Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 I'm no expert, but I'm assuming that if SL wants to leave (sell) then someone will have to want to buy. If the debt situation is a shocker then he'll have to stay (at least on paper) won't he? If someone comes in then, by definition, at least they'll think the agreed terms of the debt repayment are manageable. I imagine that this would be the case although as other clubs have experienced (e.g. Man Utd) someone could come in and offer to clear the debts but the money invested would all be debt itself which wouldn't really help. I guess the majoy worry is that Lansdown says I want to sell and I'm not going to put any more money in but then he can't find someone to clear the debt, doesn't put the money in himself and we go into adminsitration instead. I know that most will say that he wouldn't do that because he cares too much about the club but he doesn't have inexhaustable resources and it may come a time when he says enough is enough. He might be banking on reaching the prem to get his money back and if that doesn't happen who knows. Surely history has taught us that it is dangerous to rely on an individual to sustain a club, no matter how well meaning he might seem in the present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CotswoldRed Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 I know that most will say that he wouldn't do that because he cares too much about the club but he doesn't have inexhaustable resources and it may come a time when he says enough is enough. True. But most businessmen who's business screws up badly only have THEMSELVES to blame. Would SL want a legacy of ruining BCFC on his headstone? He may want out eventually, but I'd hope he would downsize the business and try to leave it (at worst) as a decent family club with a reasonable balance sheet. IF he doesn't then he's as bad as any other Chairman that has left a club in tatters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eskay Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Collis - how many Goalkeepers do we need at the Gate? You really need three, we have to assume that there is no plan to play Basso again so he has actually got that one right. The rest does not make good reading for GJ and that is why if I was SL I would not have given him any more money in January. I certainly would not have let him sign another striker (on loan or otherwise)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CotswoldRed Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 As far as debt is concerned in my business, I don't mind too much if what I'm investing in has some good retention in its value - i.e. it can be sold on as a capital item, such as equipment or property. I fear we have a lot of players who we would now struggle to sell for much, if at all, hence we've not managed to get rid of anyone this window when perhaps we needed to. The sums we have paid for many players won't ever be recouped because they're not proving as good as we thought they would. Not only have we spent the money, but we can't have it back, even if we wanted to sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milo1111 Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 You really need three, we have to assume that there is no plan to play Basso again so he has actually got that one right. The rest does not make good reading for GJ and that is why if I was SL I would not have given him any more money in January. I certainly would not have let him sign another striker (on loan or otherwise)! agreed. i no longer think GJ is the man for us. this decision has not got anything to do with our league position at all. its down to the lack of entertainment, but more importantly in my eyes its because i am very dissapointed with GJs recent dealings in the transfer market and the shocking waste of funds that has taken place in the last 18 months. clarkson, styvar and saborio have been a shocking waste of cash IMO. we have got absolutely no return at all out of these three who have all cost a fair wedge in wages no doubt as well as the fees for clarkson and styvar. as for velicka that was just bad luck. but these three have been shockers, i know every signing is a gamble but for every one of those three to look so shockingly off the level that is required to lead the line in this league is a joke for me. what the hell did he or rather his brother see in them FFS?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tunley Legend Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 As far as debt is concerned in my business, I don't mind too much if what I'm investing in has some good retention in its value - i.e. it can be sold on as a capital item, such as equipment or property. I fear we have a lot of players who we would now struggle to sell for much, if at all, hence we've not managed to get rid of anyone this window when perhaps we needed to. The sums we have paid for many players won't ever be recouped because they're not proving as good as we thought they would. Not only have we spent the money, but we can't have it back, even if we wanted to sell. That is a great point. The majority of players we BUY seem to depreciate to NIL sell-on value very quickly. All this does is further compound our debt problem (and it is a problem whether Steve Lansdown covers it or not) because we are forever shelling out money for "assets" but we are not getting any "asset value" in return. In simple terms we are paying money for something that isn't worth anything after a few months!!! The only asset we have that could be sold for considerably more than we have paid out (in transfer fees and/or wages) at the moment is Cole Skuse. Some would show a reasonable profit (Maynard maybe), some a small profit (Elliott) and the rest would have to be sold or given away at a loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howey_ducky Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 It does bring into question why more of the academy aren't being blooded. That's also costing us to keep it running every year and as of yet it has given us very few first team players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 10 million plus seems a nice round figure; ST`s will take another hit unless things drastically improve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barneyredballs Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 10 million plus seems a nice round figure; ST`s will take another hit unless things drastically improve Is the £6,000,000 figure in 2008/2009 a debt or was it a loss? Might be being stupid here, but surely they are quire different things? £6,000,000 written off by the board is very different to £6,000,000 needed to be paid back to a creditor (plus the interest). Of course anything negative is not good. Would be really interested to see comparisons with other football clubs. Anyone know where this info could be found? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolcitysweden Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Is the £6,000,000 figure in 2008/2009 a debt or was it a loss? Might be being stupid here, but surely they are quire different things? £6,000,000 written off by the board is very different to £6,000,000 needed to be paid back to a creditor (plus the interest). Of course anything negative is not good. Would be really interested to see comparisons with other football clubs. Anyone know where this info could be found? http://www.footballeconomy.com/reports.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eskay Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 ST`s will take another hit unless things drastically improve This is the crucial point. Bums on seats is what makes SL's investment even remotely viable, that is now looking more and more fragile by the week. I am sure SL (no matter what is written in the press), is all too aware of this and must surely have a contingency plan. Not only will season tickets take a hit but the casual support will also suffer, the some total of this is less money to balance the books...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid in the Riot Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Palace sold Moses yesterday for 2.5 mill and at 18, he's about 3 years younger than arguably our best prospect Ribeiro, who is still being overlooked for our first team, even though Everton were reputed to have been tracking him a couple of years back. How much would we get for Ribs if we'd put him up for sale at the moment? There's no 'reputed' about it. Ribs turned down the chance to go to Everton. Wonder if he has any regrets now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 It was Wilson that Everton were reportedly after (mentioned the last three close seasons) and it was baseless speculation due to the Flipflop connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid in the Riot Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 It was Wilson that Everton were reportedly after (mentioned the last three close seasons) and it was baseless speculation due to the Flipflop connection. No, Everton enquired about Ribeiro in the summer of '08. He chose to stay at City. Trust me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex_BCFC Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 No, Everton enquired about Ribeiro in the summer of '08. He chose to stay at City. Trust me! Not according to this: http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Everton-battle-Tottenham-and-Arsenal-for-Bristol-City-defender-James-Wilson-article31286.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 He chose to stay at City. So SteveL accepted a fee for Ribeiro? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid in the Riot Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 So SteveL accepted a fee for Ribeiro? http://www.gazetteseries.co.uk/sport/4254548.Football__Ribeiro_has_no_regrets_about_staying_at_Bristol_City/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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