Movement?

[Simon79]

Something i have been pulling my hair out about for quite some time is City's movement or should i say lack of it? I cannot for the life of me see how this goes un-noticed (or possibly it doesnt?). For example, Orr/Mcallister are on the ball and 75%+ (or any defender for that matter) of the time they have no one screaming for the ball (except possibly Hartley),hence why they have got to knock a 40yard ball forward,for which neither striker has read and failed to get in front of the defender! A 10 yard ball is a lot easier to complete than a 40 yard ball(que the "they wouldnt be able to complete that comments!"),which then starts the Mcallister/Orr your bloody useless taunts, Isnt it basic forward principal,that if your full back has the ball,the option you give him is to show in front of the full back,or between the centre half & full back in the "pocket" as i call it( similar to what Trundle use to do, Kevin Phillips is a great examle of this(if only!)).When a midfielder has the ball,again you show,get in front of your man,dont bloody run away from him.I accept that sometimes the ball over the top is a good weapon(Hartley too Maynard springs to mind),but surely you have to mix it up a bit? Crosses is another problem linked to this IMO,how many times do we see a cross go in and its cleared at the front post or beyond that sometimes? Why dont we gamble and get across the front post/player? Again ,simple striking partnership rules isnt it, front and far? If a defender has got his nugget on it,what is stopping our players from getting on the end of it? nothing,except a lack of movement! I dont buy into this Orr/Mcallister cant cross theory,for the reasons ive just stated( although i accept that they could improve).Midfielders getting beyond the ball line is another problem,again linked to movement.It really does annoy me,as you have probably guessed! It is a simpe aspect of the game isnt it? but such an important part of the game.Arsenal/Man Utd are masters of it, I know we are a long way of them,but we do have players with 2 legs(no Mcallister only has one leg comments please!),so bloody move them! Almost finished now folks,but does anyone know if we have a striker coach? I know we have Millen playing a big part in the defending coaching and Naylor with the keepers.These are my observations on what i feel is quite possibly one of our biggest problems at the moment and our lack of chances possibly backs this up. Your thoughts please.

[SuperRed]

Our starting 11 yesterday didn't have one player who had pace or the ability to beat a player, much like Coventry. I know JCR was expected to start and that would have added some pace, so when he couldn't play Haynes or Sproule should have started. Only when Haynes and Sproule came on did we have pace in the team and actually started looking like we might score. Without pace in the team are build up is slow, we resort to long balls and crosses from halfway inside the opposition half, this makes us easy to defend against.

[Simon79]

Our starting 11 yesterday didn't have one player who had pace or the ability to beat a player, much like Coventry. I know JCR was expected to start and that would have added some pace, so when he couldn't play Haynes or Sproule should have started. Only when Haynes and Sproule came on did we have pace in the team and actually started looking like we might score. Without pace in the team are build up is slow, we resort to long balls and crosses from halfway inside the opposition half, this makes us easy to defend against.

One of those 2 if not both would of been in my team to be honest,so i partially agree with you on that.The bit i dont totally agree with you is that obviously we played 3-5-2 or 5-3-2 if you want,so that would of meant a few days of organising the team on that shape etc,so Sno was the obvious replacement,not so sure on Haynes or Sproule in a midfield 3? Also agree on their impact on the game yesterday,t was definitely positive.IMO opinion,we dont have a player who is gifted enough to go by a player with some creativity or skill,some can do it with pace(obviously the 2 you have mentioned come into that category),but not skills.Although i think JCR is a player which will change that stat,but to only have one player in a squad who can do that is a worry.But having pace or not doesnt stop people moving 10 yards forwards or sideways to show for the ball!

[SuperRed]

One of those 2 if not both would of been in my team to be honest,so i partially agree with you on that.The bit i dont totally agree with you is that obviously we played 3-5-2 or 5-3-2 if you want,so that would of meant a few days of organising the team on that shape etc,so Sno was the obvious replacement,not so sure on Haynes or Sproule in a midfield 3? Also agree on their impact on the game yesterday,t was definitely positive.IMO opinion,we dont have a player who is gifted enough to go by a player with some creativity or skill,some can do it with pace(obviously the 2 you have mentioned come into that category),but not skills.Although i think JCR is a player which will change that stat,but to only have one player in a squad who can do that is a worry.But having pace or not doesnt stop people moving 10 yards forwards or sideways to show for the ball!

I agree with you about our movement, and I wasn't saying that having pace in the team would improve our movement. The point I was trying to make is that yesterday we had neither good movement or pace, and so our play was slow and didn't threaten Coventry. Also i wasn't suggesting both Sproule and Haynes should start, I would have started with Haynes up front with Maynard, he's been playing well and I don't see why Patrick A should come in and automatically be a starter. But i agree with your point on movement.

[Drew Peacock]

Our starting 11 yesterday didn't have one player who had pace or the ability to beat a player, much like Coventry. I know JCR was expected to start and that would have added some pace, so when he couldn't play Haynes or Sproule should have started. Only when Haynes and Sproule came on did we have pace in the team and actually started looking like we might score. Without pace in the team are build up is slow, we resort to long balls and crosses from halfway inside the opposition half, this makes us easy to defend against.

No it's more than that, too often we have possession of the ball and the rest of the team start playing statues. Very frustating.

[Simon79]

I agree with you about our movement, and I wasn't saying that having pace in the team would improve our movement. The point I was trying to make is that yesterday we had neither good movement or pace, and so our play was slow and didn't threaten Coventry. Also i wasn't suggesting both Sproule and Haynes should start, I would have started with Haynes up front with Maynard, he's been playing well and I don't see why Patrick A should come in and automatically be a starter. But i agree with your point on movement.

Pace along with movement would be a great thing,thats for sure(i think i would be happy with one of them at the minute!).I too would definitely start with Haynes, i actually believe in many ways he has been our best striker so far this season, i know maynard is the top scorer,but things happen when Haynes is on the pitch.In fact his movemnt caused them problems when he came on,showing for the ball,getting across his marker for a header into the keepers hands,bloody hell,im ruining my own post!!!

[Simon79]

No it's more than that, too often we have possession of the ball and the rest of the team start playing statues. Very frustating.

Maybe we should keep the music playing from the tannoys,if they want to play statues,that could be easily sorted! But seriously,i couldnt agree more. Remember the Anfield rap? (or was it the England song?) PASS AND MOVE!!!

[REDOXO]

Maybe we should keep the music playing from the tannoys,if they want to play statues,that could be easily sorted! But seriously,i couldnt agree more. Remember the Anfield rap? (or was it the England song?) PASS AND MOVE!!!

Funny thing when Gary came in the emphasis was on TEMPO. keep the players fit, move around make the oposition chase you...Since we signed Adebola the emphasis changed to a slower game and hit the big forward.

Dele was/is a very good player and is in no way responsible but we seemed to have lost that Tempo which made us difficult to play against...

I am a big fan of GJ but I certainly feel the reliance on a big forward has seen the death of the high speed pass and move which worked so well for the first half of our play off final season....

[Daniro]

Towards the end of the game, Haynes got the ball on the break and Sproule made a great diagonal run left to right but Haynes went for glory himself (understandably I s'pose). An example I thought of how this team doesn't really understand each other. Same problem with Sno - he's talented and would be great at finding players running into spaces but there never is anyone moving so he ends up having to go backwards.

As I keep saying - what do they do in training? Good question about the strikers coach - would that be Walshy?

[Nibor]

Movement and patterns of play won't come together if the team is changing shape and personnel every 30 minutes of playing time.

[Simon79]

Movement and patterns of play won't come together if the team is changing shape and personnel every 30 minutes of playing time.

Who you are playing along side or with shouldnt stop you(the player) looking to get on the ball.Its the reason players play isnt it? to get on the ball! I accept what you have said certainly doesnt help.But i dont accept that it stops players wanting to show and get on the ball or affect the game.The instances i have mentioned are ares i was taught/picked up when i was 10 - 12 years old and we are talking about proffesionals.I really dont mean to be detrimental to the players,but it does frustrate me.

[Daniro]

Movement and patterns of play won't come together if the team is changing shape and personnel every 30 minutes of playing time.

I agree - this bunch never seem to look like they're gelling and the chopping and changing doesn't help - but you'd think they'd work hard on this kind of thing in training day in day out?

[Simon79]

Funny thing when Gary came in the emphasis was on TEMPO. keep the players fit, move around make the oposition chase you...Since we signed Adebola the emphasis changed to a slower game and hit the big forward.

Dele was/is a very good player and is in no way responsible but we seemed to have lost that Tempo which made us difficult to play against...

I am a big fan of GJ but I certainly feel the reliance on a big forward has seen the death of the high speed pass and move which worked so well for the first half of our play off final season....

I too believe that GJ is the right man for the job and i couldnt agree more with your point on tempo.We use to run teams into the ground along with our pass and move philosophy.My fear is that we havent got enough players who want to get on the ball and affect the game.Many will say that Noble and Trundle were lazy or this and that,but IMO,i would say a player who doesnt try and get on the ball by moving is just as lazy as a player that doesnt chase back 50 yards to win a 50-50.In reality,you need both types of players in your team to be succesfull.If you cant keep hold of the ball,the opponents will put you under pressure,if the opponents put you under pressure,they will at some point have chances(usually in the last 5 mins!).Possesion is 9/10's of the law!!!

[Nibor]

Who you are playing along side or with shouldnt stop you(the player) looking to get on the ball.Its the reason players play isnt it? to get on the ball! I accept what you have said certainly doesnt help.But i dont accept that it stops players wanting to show and get on the ball or affect the game.The instances i have mentioned are ares i was taught/picked up when i was 10 - 12 years old and we are talking about proffesionals.I really dont mean to be detrimental to the players,but it does frustrate me.

Yeah I agree the forward players should be looking for the ball and could move more anyway, but at that level you have to be aware of where your team mates are and where they're going to move to for it to be effective, it's a subconscious thing and it doesn't develop if you don't play with the same players around you often enough. Look at Haynes, he comes on and he's running around everywhere but it's a lot less effective than it would be if he was in a settled side so he gets the ball played through when he's running sideways or towards a corner flag or too late. The approach to strikers partnerships seems from GJ's comments on the radio the other night to be "chuck em in and let em get on with it and swap them if they don't score" and it ain't working.

Movement is also a bit of a vicious circle - too many hoof balls and they stop moving and look for the knock down, too little movement means more hoof balls. The main thing that could improve this would actually be for players to carry the ball forward like Carey does when he gets pissed off with the lack of options.

[Simon79]

Yeah I agree the forward players should be looking for the ball and could move more anyway, but at that level you have to be aware of where your team mates are and where they're going to move to for it to be effective, it's a subconscious thing and it doesn't develop if you don't play with the same players around you often enough. Look at Haynes, he comes on and he's running around everywhere but it's a lot less effective than it would be if he was in a settled side so he gets the ball played through when he's running sideways or towards a corner flag or too late. The approach to strikers partnerships seems from GJ's comments on the radio the other night to be "chuck em in and let em get on with it and swap them if they don't score" and it ain't working.

Movement is also a bit of a vicious circle - too many hoof balls and they stop moving and look for the knock down, too little movement means more hoof balls. The main thing that could improve this would actually be for players to carry the ball forward like Carey does when he gets pissed off with the lack of options.

I agree with most of that,if not all of that.Continuity is definitely important,(and here is the "BUT"!),if a player like Noble walked into our team in the next game,I would be very confident that he would get on the ball/create and affect the game more than we are at the moment,whether he has played regulary with the other players or not.So i suppose it comes down to what players have upstairs(brain department),understanding angles and line of sight etc etc. I bring Noble up,not to look back,but to relate to someone we all know well.Sometimes it can just come down to one simple aspect,having the b#lls to get on the ball and affect the game.

[lager loud]

I agree with most of that,if not all of that.Continuity is definitely important,(and here is the "BUT"!),if a player like Noble walked into our team in the next game,I would be very confident that he would get on the ball/create and affect the game more than we are at the moment,whether he has played regulary with the other players or not.So i suppose it comes down to what players have upstairs(brain department),understanding angles and line of sight etc etc. I bring Noble up,not to look back,but to relate to someone we all know well.Sometimes it can just come down to one simple aspect,having the b#lls to get on the ball and affect the game.

I agree with the general thought behind this thread. Maynard's lack of movement has been a recurring problem throughout his time with us. I've got no doubt that this has been worked on in training, and have noticed GJ on more than one occasion in the past berating him during games for not making runs. Apart from Haynes, no-one who's played alongside him has been much better at this (Adebola had different strengths).

I really liked watching Noble play, but I think we do have players at the club now who can do what he did. Evander Sno is perhaps the closest - not the quickest, but always looking for the right pass and very rarely gets dispossessed. But Hartley too can pick out a great pass, and Cole Skuse has got better in this respect. People often focus on McAllister and Orr's shortcomings as passers of the ball - and have a point - but when players of the class of Hartley and Sno can't find anyone to pass to, the problems are not just with the passers!

So at the moment I think it really is the lack of movement ahead of the ball that causes the problem. Too often, Maynard just positions himself between defenders and looks for a ball played straight ahead in front of him: great if you can pull it off and put him in on the keeper (as Hartley did against Boro at home), but we could have a midfield including Carrick, Lampard and Gerrard and they'd struggle to get that sort of pass right on a regular basis.

Danny Haynes' movement has been much better than our other forwards when he's played up front, and I wouldn't pick Maynard or Agyemang ahead of him at present (although I might play him alongside Maynard, as Haynes' movement will help create space for him, which Agyemang's immobility doesn't).

As I say, I'm absolutely convinced the coaching team have been working on Maynard's movement for as long as he's been with us (and also on making Ivan Sproule run into the space in front of him, rather than hanging back for the ball, which he still does far too often). It makes me wonder if those players simply don't have what it takes upstairs (in a football sense) to help us move on to the next level. I personally think that Ivan Sproule doesn't have the football nous to get much better; Nicky Maynard may still be young enough to "get it". But I am convinced that this lack of movement up front is a major contributory factor in our inability to play exciting, attacking, winning football.

[REDOXO]

I agree with the general thought behind this thread. Maynard's lack of movement has been a recurring problem throughout his time with us. I've got no doubt that this has been worked on in training, and have noticed GJ on more than one occasion in the past berating him during games for not making runs. Apart from Haynes, no-one who's played alongside him has been much better at this (Adebola had different strengths).

I really liked watching Noble play, but I think we do have players at the club now who can do what he did. Evander Sno is perhaps the closest - not the quickest, but always looking for the right pass and very rarely gets dispossessed. But Hartley too can pick out a great pass, and Cole Skuse has got better in this respect. People often focus on McAllister and Orr's shortcomings as passers of the ball - and have a point - but when players of the class of Hartley and Sno can't find anyone to pass to, the problems are not just with the passers!

So at the moment I think it really is the lack of movement ahead of the ball that causes the problem. Too often, Maynard just positions himself between defenders and looks for a ball played straight ahead in front of him: great if you can pull it off and put him in on the keeper (as Hartley did against Boro at home), but we could have a midfield including Carrick, Lampard and Gerrard and they'd struggle to get that sort of pass right on a regular basis.

Danny Haynes' movement has been much better than our other forwards when he's played up front, and I wouldn't pick Maynard or Agyemang ahead of him at present (although I might play him alongside Maynard, as Haynes' movement will help create space for him, which Agyemang's immobility doesn't).

As I say, I'm absolutely convinced the coaching team have been working on Maynard's movement for as long as he's been with us (and also on making Ivan Sproule run into the space in front of him, rather than hanging back for the ball, which he still does far too often). It makes me wonder if those players simply don't have what it takes upstairs (in a football sense) to help us move on to the next level. I personally think that Ivan Sproule doesn't have the football nous to get much better; Nicky Maynard may still be young enough to "get it". But I am convinced that this lack of movement up front is a major contributory factor in our inability to play exciting, attacking, winning football.

Its not necessarily the lack of forward movement that's the biggest problem (although it is a problem) its a lack of movement throughout the team and the slowing down of the play. I refer back to my previous comment regarding the tempo that is lacking throughout the side and seems to be a major factor throughout the team.

Pass and move is almost a cliche, however when we were playing well the backs and the midfield linked well as they created a lot of triangles to pass the ball between them and consquently try and feed the forwards. Unfortunately the signing of Dele sent us backward in some respects and that movement was lost to humping the ball up to the big guy to hold or flick.

As Mr. Clough once said..."if god meant football to be played in the air he would have put grass in the sky". you just gotta hope that the players such as Brad, Gary, Louis, Cole, Liam, Danny and Ivan have enough confidence left to play the game on the ground between now and the end of the season!

[lager loud]

Its not necessarily the lack of forward movement that's the biggest problem (although it is a problem) its a lack of movement throughout the team and the slowing down of the play. I refer back to my previous comment regarding the tempo that is lacking throughout the side and seems to be a major factor throughout the team.

Pass and move is almost a cliche, however when we were playing well the backs and the midfield linked well as they created a lot of triangles to pass the ball between them and consquently try and feed the forwards. Unfortunately the signing of Dele sent us backward in some respects and that movement was lost to humping the ball up to the big guy to hold or flick.

As Mr. Clough once said..."if god meant football to be played in the air he would have put grass in the sky". you just gotta hope that the players such as Brad, Gary, Louis, Cole, Liam, Danny and Ivan have enough confidence left to play the game on the ground between now and the end of the season!

I agree it isn't just the job of the forwards to create movement. I think part of Cole Skuse's improvement this year has been his willingness to get ahead of the ball, into the "hole", and Paul Hartley's ability to pass the ball to him quickly, helping to up the tempo (and the presence of PH alongside him has helped give CS the confidence to go forward). So the problems are not just to do with the forwards, but I do think there's a bit of "chicken and egg" here: if the forwards (or midfielders) move so that those behind them can pick out a pass quickly, the tempo rises - and you then need other players to be moving into space to maintain that tempo. If there isn't anyone to pass to the play is slowed down, the player with the ball gets put under pressure and biffs it - usually to a big centre half who almost without fail biffs it back to us.

I hope we do find that confidence, as I still believe we have the quality of players to play the ball on the ground, and if we play long ball we'll struggle to pick up many wins and I'll struggle to retain my will to live whilst watching!

[Bcfc-Chris]

Our starting 11 yesterday didn't have one player who had pace or the ability to beat a player, much like Coventry. I know JCR was expected to start and that would have added some pace, so when he couldn't play Haynes or Sproule should have started. Only when Haynes and Sproule came on did we have pace in the team and actually started looking like we might score. Without pace in the team are build up is slow, we resort to long balls and crosses from halfway inside the opposition half, this makes us easy to defend against.

I agree with you about our 11 having no-one to beat anybody, but Coventry had a couple, Macca and Bell is it? the other winger with the red boots?