Clubs Nearly Going Bust

[Jordan Tansley]

Do you live in Portsmouth? Have you seen first hand everything that has happened down here? Agreed Peter Storrie is at fault as well however Without Redknapp's promises the amount of money that was spent wouldn't have been spent

who needs to live in portsmouth?

sorry, but whatever spin you put on it you cannot possibly attribute the financial downfall of Portsmouth to Harry Redknapp!

No CEO with any sense would make decisions based on potential earnings, Prudence is the first rule of business as far as i can recall! expecting a side making their debut in the Uefa cup to get to the 1/4's was positive thinking from the manager, not a fact that Storie should have been taking loans out for!

Redknapp only gets grief from Portsmouth fans because they know he's the best manager they will ever have! its the same as Coyle at Burnley and it's pretty pathetic.

Storie is at fault.

he took everything Gaydamak had and he's taken everything pompey has aswell. The guy belongs in prison.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Do you live in Portsmouth? Have you seen first hand everything that has happened down here? Agreed Peter Storrie is at fault as well however Without Redknapp's promises the amount of money that was spent wouldn't have been spent

I would generally point the finger at Storrie, but Redknapp don't exactly come out of it with shining reputations, imo.

In addition, West Ham are in a financial mess and so were Southampton until their new owners took over- there is a common thread between those 3 sides!!

[Mr Popodopolous]

it's not a case of wishing for one or more of these clubs to go bust for our gain, It's a case of this needing to happen for the good of football.

In all probability it is our fault that this has happened. Had we not snuck through loop hole after loop hole in '82 maybe people would have recieved a very early kick up the bum about borrowing and over spending?

Good point. Actually, there is an article on the BBC site about the subject of clubs in financial trouble, with reference to how few clubs learnt the lessons of what happened to us.

My link

[Us_and_Them]

Not seen this anywhere else but the 3 clubs above all faced winding up orders today due to unpaid taxes (you think we've got problems!) Pompey got a week's reprieve the other 2 got one more month.

Pompey apparently owe 60 million overall and definitely owe 11 million to the Inland Revenue. They got the reprieve because some people may be interested in taking them over but I find this hard to believe. Who is going to want to pay 60 million for a (soon-to-be) Championship club when you could buy Palace, for example, for much less. I think Pompey are doomed to be wound up (unless they manage to go into administration somehow)

Cardiff are also in a lot of trouble but have managed to pay off 1 million out of 2.7 million owed to HMRC already and have managed to get the council to allow them to sell some land worth about 1.8 million to help pay off the debt. The problem they have is they seem to have already spent next year's season ticket money and have also started paying back 15 million to Langston (connected to Sam Hammam) in £250,000 installments. They are also allegedly paying Peter Ridsdale an annual salary of £350,000. As I see it it's win or bust for them: If they don't win the Play Offs, then they're in big trouble in the summer...

Don't know anything about Southend

It's starting to look like the football boom may be turning to a football bust. Even the big guns like Man U and Liverpool have huge amounts of debt. While it would be very sad for any club to go bust maybe one of these one's needs to to make the rest see sense. The FA really needs to get a grip of debt and try to get some sort of salary or wage cap in place to stop the madness. If 1 or more clubs did go bust then all the surplus players floating about might help to drive down footballer's wages a bit and would be good in the long term. As for the fans I guess AFC Wimbledon have shown that you can make it back from nothing even if it takes a very long time

On a note of self interest if Pompey do fold then only 2 would be relegated from the Premier League and then presumably only 2 would go down from the Championship. This would put us a slightly more comfortable 13 points from relegation rather than 5. If Cardiff were to fold then we would be laughing as we would gain +9 on the goal difference whilst gaining on clubs who took points from them e.g. QPR.

Alan Sugar was on the news last night saying that he warned the F.A. and club owners about a Premier League club going bust 10 years ago but was laughed at by all.

[Tunley Legend]

Not seen this anywhere else but the 3 clubs above all faced winding up orders today due to unpaid taxes (you think we've got problems!) Pompey got a week's reprieve the other 2 got one more month.

Pompey apparently owe 60 million overall and definitely owe 11 million to the Inland Revenue. They got the reprieve because some people may be interested in taking them over but I find this hard to believe. Who is going to want to pay 60 million for a (soon-to-be) Championship club when you could buy Palace, for example, for much less. I think Pompey are doomed to be wound up (unless they manage to go into administration somehow)

Cardiff are also in a lot of trouble but have managed to pay off 1 million out of 2.7 million owed to HMRC already and have managed to get the council to allow them to sell some land worth about 1.8 million to help pay off the debt. The problem they have is they seem to have already spent next year's season ticket money and have also started paying back 15 million to Langston (connected to Sam Hammam) in £250,000 installments. They are also allegedly paying Peter Ridsdale an annual salary of £350,000. As I see it it's win or bust for them: If they don't win the Play Offs, then they're in big trouble in the summer...

Don't know anything about Southend

It's starting to look like the football boom may be turning to a football bust. Even the big guns like Man U and Liverpool have huge amounts of debt. While it would be very sad for any club to go bust maybe one of these one's needs to to make the rest see sense. The FA really needs to get a grip of debt and try to get some sort of salary or wage cap in place to stop the madness. If 1 or more clubs did go bust then all the surplus players floating about might help to drive down footballer's wages a bit and would be good in the long term. As for the fans I guess AFC Wimbledon have shown that you can make it back from nothing even if it takes a very long time

On a note of self interest if Pompey do fold then only 2 would be relegated from the Premier League and then presumably only 2 would go down from the Championship. This would put us a slightly more comfortable 13 points from relegation rather than 5. If Cardiff were to fold then we would be laughing as we would gain +9 on the goal difference whilst gaining on clubs who took points from them e.g. QPR.

I imagine they would cash in on Adam Matthews, Joe Ledley and get rid of Chopra pretty sharpish and struggle ON THE FIELD instead. That's something Cardiff do have - playing assets - but you need to either buy well or give youth a chance to acquire those assets. If we were in Cardiff's position (and it won't be that long looking at our operating losses each year) then we would be royally Donald Ducked when you look at our squad.

[Loderingo]

Just to update on Portsmouth's situation, it looks like they are very very desperate now. First they tried to see if they could get next season's parachute payment paid in advance this season but it looks like the other Premier League clubs won't agree to that (as it is an unfair advantage and also 4-5 clubs would gain a lot in terms of league position if Portsmouth's fixture were annulled). Their new idea is to ask the FA and FIFA to open the transfer window so they can sell some players. There is absolutely no chance of that happening. The fact they are even coming up with this suggests that they are unable to find a buyer (who would want to pay take on 60 million of debt for a soon-to-be Championship club). They are back in court on the 1st March and I think that could be it - no more Pompey!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/p/portsmouth/8522283.stm

[Roger Red Hat]

One thing that doesn't seem to get mentioned is the stupid transfer window that was imposed on clubs. If it was still possible to buy and sell throughout the season, clubs that we're running into trouble could theoretically sell a player to make any payments to whoever and avoid getting up sh1t creek.

[Chappers]

Pompey had a chance to sell in the transfer window. Surely things have not deteriorated in just 17 days, or was it the usual head in sand approach? With all of these plans, no mention is made of points deduction. Surely if the Premier League are coming up with all of these plans to save Pompey they should not risk them staying in the Premier League, and legal action being taken by the Club finishing 18th. It all seems designed to protect the 'Brand' more than anything else.

[TorontoRed]

From a man who suggested it was a good idea to buy an Amstrad computer!

That'll be a millionnaire that convinced people to by his product then!!!

[TorontoRed]

Pompey had a chance to sell in the transfer window. Surely things have not deteriorated in just 17 days, or was it the usual head in sand approach? With all of these plans, no mention is made of points deduction. Surely if the Premier League are coming up with all of these plans to save Pompey they should not risk them staying in the Premier League, and legal action being taken by the Club finishing 18th. It all seems designed to protect the 'Brand' more than anything else.

It isn't always as easy as selling... you need a buyer as well. Then there is the issue of price, how many of us believe the players would get 'market-price' if the buyers knew the sellers were desperate?

How many people have sold their houses recently? Even if we needed to move?

[OoohShaunyTaylor]

Exactly: schadenfreude, the Germans call it- no precise translation but it's gaining pleasure from another's misfortune.

I remember 1982, and there, but for the Grace of God (and perhaps SL) ,goes CITY.

I think it had more to do with Williams and Kew than Lansdown... if anything, my opinion is that Lansdown will take us back there rather than deliver us from it.

As a business, we stink. We are paying out more than we make and to make up the shortfall, our directors are "loaning" the club money and take a percentage back each season along with a small amount of interest. It's still better than the club borrowing from the banks but if they REALLY had the clubs interests at heart, they would either make it work on the finances coming in or would just give the club the money it needs. To be honest with you, even if it affected our chances of getting to the Prem any time soon, I'd prefer that the club survived on it's own.

As for the salary cap idea, it's a great one but it would have to be implemented at FIFA level and Blatter is never going to embroil himself in that. There does, IMO, need to be a system in place where a club can only spend 60% of it's income on players wages, with capped numbers of how many players each club can have on its books, only being able to sign additional players should it have someone signed off for the entirety of the rest season. This could possibly work with additional squad positions available dependant on how many competitions a team is in (+5 or 8 squad members if in Europe and the same again in Jan or Feb depending on domestic cup involvement).

This may mean that, with there being no guarantee of club income, players would need to start signing contracts whereby they received a percentage of income per week, which may not be favourable to them as some weeks, they would get nothing or minimal payments only down to what is made at the club shops when they play away, but would obviously get much more should the club have a streak of home games. They may not like it but it would be better than the system currently in place where their possible employers go bust and they end up getting nothing. Players are as responsible for this as the owners/directors of clubs and shared responsibility should make this work properly.

The remaining 40% of money made by clubs will have to go on servicing debts as priority one, club staff such as admin and coaching second, then transfers and anything left will be the "wage" of the directors.

[Chappers]

It isn't always as easy as selling... you need a buyer as well. Then there is the issue of price, how many of us believe the players would get 'market-price' if the buyers knew the sellers were desperate?

How many people have sold their houses recently? Even if we needed to move?

Good point well made. I was thinking more of cash-flow which is what may well finish off Pompey. Whilst the Club may get very little for the players, the main saving will be on the wage bill over the rest of the season. The downside is that they will then be whipping boys for a few months, devaluing the League, and they would have missed out on the FA Cup money.

I'm glad it is not just me that is worried about City piling up the debt. I hope that I am wrong, but I have a feeling that we will soon be paying the price of recent over-spending, especially as we have got so little to show for it.

[chipdawg]

I think we can all agree that Portsmouth are royally buggered. I don't know anything about Southend, but from what i understand about Cardiff they will need to get to the playoff final at least to be able to not have to sell several first team players in the summer or worse, face administration. I don't wish that on any club, even Baaadiff

I think English football is facing a watershed. I don't think we can sustain 4 (nearly 5 as much of the conference is professional) pro leagues any more and i think that English football and in the long term, most of the smaller clubs would be much better served by doing away with at least 1 professional league and turning Leage 2 and the Conference into semi-pro leagues. I don't think it will affect quality too much and the survival of many clubs may depend on it

[tompo]

I think we can all agree that Portsmouth are royally buggered. I don't know anything about Southend, but from what i understand about Cardiff they will need to get to the playoff final at least to be able to not have to sell several first team players in the summer or worse, face administration. I don't wish that on any club, even Baaadiff

I think English football is facing a watershed. I don't think we can sustain 4 (nearly 5 as much of the conference is professional) pro leagues any more and i think that English football and in the long term, most of the smaller clubs would be much better served by doing away with at least 1 professional league and turning Leage 2 and the Conference into semi-pro leagues. I don't think it will affect quality too much and the survival of many clubs may depend on it

FIFA has indicated it will look favourably at Portsmouth's request.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/p/portsmouth/8522283.stm

Doesn't seem fair on those clubs in crisis in the lower leagues to me.

[Chappers]

I'm not sure that the number of Leagues is really a major issue. The Conference has improved a lot since going mostly pro, and whilst there are exceptions, most Clubs there are very well run. It's a pity Sky could not take over the Setanta coverage as it was good to watch, and a change from the dull Premier League stuff.

Basically, football should not be in the mess as more money than ever is flowing in. Sadly, Chairmen seem determined to spend far more than is earned in the desperate chase for short-term success, with the hope of a bail-out when it inevitably goes t*ts up. If you look at City, we are wasting a huge amount of cash each year-

The Academy is not an integral part of the First Team.

Goalkeepers - We need two plus an Academy youngster. Any problems and we get an emergency loan.

Paying a good keeper to do nothing for a year because he fell out with GJ.

Strikers - How many do we try before getting it right?

Look at many of our recent signings, how many were well-researched and value in terms of making a significant improvement to the team?

Some signings will not work out, that is inevitable, but most of GJ's recent signings have been random and almost impulse buys/ loans. Trouble is that we are saddled with the debts for years, and some of the players for longer than is good for City.

[Philip Belgrave]

I think it had more to do with Williams and Kew than Lansdown... if anything, my opinion is that Lansdown will take us back there rather than deliver us from it.

As a business, we stink. We are paying out more than we make and to make up the shortfall, our directors are "loaning" the club money and take a percentage back each season along with a small amount of interest. It's still better than the club borrowing from the banks but if they REALLY had the clubs interests at heart, they would either make it work on the finances coming in or would just give the club the money it needs. To be honest with you, even if it affected our chances of getting to the Prem any time soon, I'd prefer that the club survived on it's own.

As for the salary cap idea, it's a great one but it would have to be implemented at FIFA level and Blatter is never going to embroil himself in that. There does, IMO, need to be a system in place where a club can only spend 60% of it's income on players wages, with capped numbers of how many players each club can have on its books, only being able to sign additional players should it have someone signed off for the entirety of the rest season. This could possibly work with additional squad positions available dependant on how many competitions a team is in (+5 or 8 squad members if in Europe and the same again in Jan or Feb depending on domestic cup involvement).

This may mean that, with there being no guarantee of club income, players would need to start signing contracts whereby they received a percentage of income per week, which may not be favourable to them as some weeks, they would get nothing or minimal payments only down to what is made at the club shops when they play away, but would obviously get much more should the club have a streak of home games. They may not like it but it would be better than the system currently in place where their possible employers go bust and they end up getting nothing. Players are as responsible for this as the owners/directors of clubs and shared responsibility should make this work properly.

The remaining 40% of money made by clubs will have to go on servicing debts as priority one, club staff such as admin and coaching second, then transfers and anything left will be the "wage" of the directors.

I didn't mean that SL was the "White Knight" back in '82: -only that his financial acumen is of crucial importance now.

Financially speaking, Football Clubs in the U.K.appear to be in a class of their own, and the only viable way of accessing them ,at least in a monetary sense ,is one with another , rather than attempting to draw any comparisions with the "real world",as it were.

As you say ,by most normal standards, the financial position of most clubs, CITY among them ,has to be judged precarious.

Obviously it's the playing staff that's the problem : the transfer market is a casino;- buy just that one new striker, midfielder, whatever ,and all will be well. Relegation averted and promotion assured. This gambling spirit appears to affect all concerned .

Then ,having laid out the purchase money ,you then have to pay the guy -at a rate commensurate with his assessed market value.

If I ruled the world,I would pay each player a reasonable retainer but the bulk of their income would be based purely and solely on results on the park:-a large bonus if we win , a little if CITY draw and stuff-all if we lose.

Simplistic, perhaps: but Í 'm sure it would be effective.