sh1t_ref_again Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 I know many claimed our early season failure was down to lack of width, but I do see our current problems steem from too much. Two wingers with a lightweight midfield which includes Johnson, just gets overrun. Time and time again on Saturday Doncasters midfield had all the time and space they needed to pick the pass. Wingers are a luxury we cannot afford as it leaves us too exposed. Although Johnson is an OK player and has his odd good game, how he can keep Hartley out the team I do not understand, if Hartley can't play 2 games a week, then start with him and replace him when he runs out of steam. With Elliott injured, I think our midfield has to be Hartley, Skuse and the forgotton man Williams, with the choice of Spoule or CR on the right. I would then play Haynes upfront with an instruction to run himself in to the ground as you will be replaced by Clarlkson or the out of form Maynard. Defending starts from the front or not at all in the case of Maynard on Saturday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperRed Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 I know many claimed our early season failure was down to lack of width, but I do see our current problems steem from too much. Two wingers with a lightweight midfield which includes Johnson, just gets overrun. Time and time again on Saturday Doncasters midfield had all the time and space they needed to pick the pass. Wingers are a luxury we cannot afford as it leaves us too exposed. Agree, on saturday 3 of our midfielders offered no protection to the defence. Johnson can't play in a 4-4-2, in a 4-3-3 he can get away with not tracking back and losing players because he has the other two to cover him, but in a 4-4-2 he is to much of a liability. Haynes and Campbell Ryce need to be told by Johnson that when they play as wide man they need to track back and help their full backs or we are to open defensively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 In a 442 you need the wingers to actually protect the full backs, on Saturday they didn't and we played more like 424. However even if they had done defensive work I don't think Donny would have scored any less as our back four made a number of very basic errors and then played like rabbits in headlights. I do agree that LJ is not strong enough to play in a two man midfield at this level, he doesn't do anything defensively and doesn't mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 Playing with wingers is fine... it boils down to the fact that.... WE CANT PLAY LEE JOHNSON IN A 4-4-2 - WE GET RIPPED APART. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sodburyred Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 Playing with wingers is fine... it boils down to the fact that.... WE CANT PLAY LEE JOHNSON IN A 4-4-2 - WE GET RIPPED APART. Agree but I think Hartley would also struggle. It needs to be players with presense. Sno with either Skuse or Elliot. But untill theyr fit we need to try and keep solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 Agree but I think Hartley would also struggle. It needs to be players with presense. Sno with either Skuse or Elliot. But untill theyr fit we need to try and keep solid. IMO Hartley has presence and does enough defensively to be fine alongside Skuse or Elliott, the issue is more that if he's playing up and down he won't last the full game. Don't see that as too big a problem personally and it does seem wrong to have an international with clearly better quality than any of the rest on the bench. Another point would be to look at our set pieces without Hartley. They were absolutely gash, in fact there were several corners that I could have bettered myself. We badly need a left footer for the left side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whale Eye Beef Hooked Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 IMO Hartley has presence and does enough defensively to be fine alongside Skuse or Elliott, the issue is more that if he's playing up and down he won't last the full game. Don't see that as too big a problem personally and it does seem wrong to have an international with clearly better quality than any of the rest on the bench. Another point would be to look at our set pieces without Hartley. They were absolutely gash, in fact there were several corners that I could have bettered myself. We badly need a left footer for the left side. I agree, you need Hartley in the team for his creativity BUT you need a very strong presence alongside so i would go Elliot, but then how do you drop Skuse? The left footer issue isn't a major worry at the moment as it was his crosses that produced our 2 goals. I don't know why we changed from a 4-3-3 formation anyway as it worked so well agianst WB. Cambell -Ryce can probably play in a 3 man midfield but i would prefer Skuse Elliot and Hartley if all fit and keep Maynard Iwelumu and Hayes up top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC_Dan Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 Playing with wingers is fine... it boils down to the fact that.... WE CANT PLAY LEE JOHNSON IN A 4-4-2 - WE GET RIPPED APART. How come we were fine in the first season up then? We played 4-4-2 with Johnson quite often that season. We can't play Lee Johnson in a 4-4-2 without an in-form Elliot (or Hartley) alongside him, and wingers who work hard to track back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 How come we were fine in the first season up then? We played 4-4-2 with Johnson quite often that season. We can't play Lee Johnson in a 4-4-2 without an in-form Elliot (or Hartley) alongside him, and wingers who work hard to track back. We mainly played with 3 in central midfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC_Dan Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 We mainly played with 3 in central midfield I'm going to say this without checking my facts, so I stand to be corrected, but I don't think we did. I can remember a number of games in which Noble was employed as an advanced midfielder behind a lone striker, and I can remember it working well. However I can also remember a number of games in which we played with 2 strikers, and I think this was the case for the majority of games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Ed Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 It was quite unusual for a side playing with 'wingers' that our right back scored two goals, neither being from set pieces. This may have been because Haynes almost appeared to being playing as if he had a free role. There were a couple of occasions when Brad had the ball and was looking for him down the line and he wasn't there. This was surprising after he played like a proper winger against WBA. JCR got the assists in before he was sussed out by the Donny full back who then constantly showed him the outside. Unfortunately JCR very rarely took that option and hence became fairly ineffectual going forward. The first 45 minutes was the most dominant I've seen Iwelumo so far but unfortunately Maynard didn't seem to read his game very well and wasn't getting on to the flicks and lay-offs. As others have said I can't believe we changed the side and formation. The results prior to Saturday suggested a turn around but the feel good factor post WBA soon went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carey 6 Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 I'm going to say this without checking my facts, so I stand to be corrected, but I don't think we did. I can remember a number of games in which Noble was employed as an advanced midfielder behind a lone striker, and I can remember it working well. However I can also remember a number of games in which we played with 2 strikers, and I think this was the case for the majority of games. Im pretty sure we did play with 2 CM's but Mcindoe kept coming in and making it look like three anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 I'm going to say this without checking my facts, so I stand to be corrected, but I don't think we did. I can remember a number of games in which Noble was employed as an advanced midfielder behind a lone striker, and I can remember it working well. However I can also remember a number of games in which we played with 2 strikers, and I think this was the case for the majority of games. It was split fairly evenly between: 4411 with Noble in behind or Carle in there. 442 with two strikers. 442 with a striker up front next to a winger who often played wide right. We often started one formation and switched with a sub. I don't think we can really play 442 with LJ in the middle of the park, because he simply doesn't track his man at all and people go by him with the ball like he doesn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFree Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 A winger - what's one of those? Have we had one or got one...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibbsyBCFC Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 4-4-2 worked in our play-off season because Johnson had Elliott alongside him who not only was in the form of his life but offered everything Johnson himself lacked (goals from midfield, pace, tackling ability, good in the air etc...). We also played McIndoe wide life and either Sproule or Wilson wide right, all of whom offered far superior defensive qualities when comapared with Haynes and Campbell-Ryce. On Saturday when we lost the ball it was like watching 4-2-4. IMO, the most convincing performance of late was home against Preston. We played 4-4-2 but Nyatanga was left back with Fonts at centre half (opposite to this weekend, and more solid IMO), our wingers were McCallister and Sproule (more defensive cover than Haynes / JCR) and Skuse and Hartely were in the middle of the park. It worries me greatly that since the PNE match we've had 2 or 3 occasssions where the same back four and midfield have been fit and available yet we've not played them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 Nibor is quite correct. We were effectively playing 4-2-4 - with JCR and Haynes/Sproule acting as wide strikers with no defensive role whatsoever. LJ can be brushed aside like a cone on a training field which left Skuse trying to patrol 50% of the field to stop us getting overrun. The team has missed crosses in from wide positions, but given our midfield frailty, perhaps the answer is 3 up front with two of our 3 fast guys playing wide alongside either Iwulemo or Maynard. Hartley could be in the centre of midfield to feed the front men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon uk Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 I agree with the other posters on here, you could play 442 as long as the wingers track back, and you dont play lee johnson in midfield. In the play off season I figure he had an awesome marvin elliott doing the leg work and macindoe running his socks off, but marvin has lost it and macindoe bu**ered off, so now we get ripped apart. If we are going to insist on 442 then it has to be Skuse and Elliott or Preferably Skuse and Sno IMHO, then leave the wingers and strikers to attack. Hartley can take a set piece but he runs like he is in 3 feet of water which isnt great when you are being torn apart. Isnt it rather a problem when you are in free fall, in March, and the people running the club dont have the first idea what the best 11 is, and which formation to play them? It is also rather a problem when the players dont give a flying monkeys when they are getting hammered every other week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redhyde Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 You can't play wingers in a 4-4-2 when you have a submissive central midfield. To be fair we've always had that under GJ, it's part of the negative of having LJ in the team. But in our first season in the championship we were incredibly successful as we covered this up. We played 4-5-1 and everyone could do what they needed to in central areas. It masked alot of the players deficiencies. We retained the ball much much better. You can't do that with Nicky Maynard in the team and we haven't restructured the rest of the team to fit him. We've tried to improve, but i think we've gotten ahead of ourselves in our regard of our players skills and lack there of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terjon Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 The formation is not the problem, The problem is the quality of players and the determination of those players, We have a great chairman and a manager who has sadly kept faith too long with certain players, Unfortunatley these 2 men are responsible for the expectations of all the fans, we had a great 1st season in CCC but to talk of top 2 finish or play offs this season and then go on 2 sign 5 players on loan, 3 free transfers and a couple of gambles like clarkson and haynes, is pure fantasy, Bristol City will never be a Prem side unless we spend Millions and unless we get a rich Oil tycoon or Lansdown blows his hard earned dosh on quality players, we simply can not get to the promised land on free transfers and loan signings, To win any league at any level you need at least 5-6 players who can play at a higher level, we have no player in this squad of prem class. shimplessssssssssssssssssss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent_bcfc Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 Bristol City will never be a Prem side unless we spend Millions and unless we get a rich Oil tycoon or Lansdown blows his hard earned dosh on quality players, we simply can not get to the promised land on free transfers and loan signings, Portsmouth did it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfkerton Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 I agree with the other posters on here, you could play 442 as long as the wingers track back, and you dont play lee johnson in midfield. In the play off season I figure he had an awesome marvin elliott doing the leg work and macindoe running his socks off, but marvin has lost it and macindoe bu**ered off, so now we get ripped apart. If we are going to insist on 442 then it has to be Skuse and Elliott or Preferably Skuse and Sno IMHO, then leave the wingers and strikers to attack. Hartley can take a set piece but he runs like he is in 3 feet of water which isnt great when you are being torn apart. Isnt it rather a problem when you are in free fall, in March, and the people running the club dont have the first idea what the best 11 is, and which formation to play them? It is also rather a problem when the players dont give a flying monkeys when they are getting hammered every other week. And the're supposed to be the experts. I can tell you what our best XI is without even having to think about it. Gerken Orr Carey Nyatanga Fontaine Skuse Hartley Elliot Haynes Iwelumo JCR Not rocket science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon uk Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 And the're supposed to be the experts. I can tell you what our best XI is without even having to think about it. Gerken Orr Carey Nyatanga Fontaine Skuse Hartley Elliot Haynes Iwelumo JCR Not rocket science. and yet you have an image of maynard on your screen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent_bcfc Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 And the're supposed to be the experts. I can tell you what our best XI is without even having to think about it. Gerken Orr Carey Nyatanga Fontaine Skuse Hartley Elliot Haynes Iwelumo JCR Not rocket science. Lewin Nyatanga ... Don't make me laugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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