Justice For The 96

[cswhitlock]

Just a brief word for those that lost thier lives watching the club they loved in a pen in sheffield

JUSTICE FOR THE 96 21 years still no justice

[Blagdon red]

Just a brief word for those that lost thier lives watching the club they loved in a pen in sheffield

JUSTICE FOR THE 96 21 years still no justice

It was a very sad day, but out of interest what would you regard as 'justice for the 96'? Who is to provide it and what form would you have it take?

[Almondsbury_red]

Those responsible for the tragedy to be brought to justice and punished for their actions

[Redhyde]

Essentially want the truth behind the decision making. Which is a euphemism for dragging somebody, anybody through the gutter in the news. They want a focus for their bitterness and hatred, which honestly they have every right to want and to be. I would be if it were my family member. However, as it's not I'd rather they moved on it is after all as they keep telling us 21 years so from the outside we all know it would be best for them as much as anyone to drop it and focus on the people they have in their lives. Easy for me to say of course.

And of course from an entirely selfish point of view we could have safe standing which as it implies, is safe.

[Tim K]

Those responsible for the tragedy to be brought to justice and punished for their actions

Exactly. Without this, it must be nigh on impossible for the relatives of those who lost their lives to have any sort of closure.

[Almondsbury_red]

Essentially want the truth behind the decision making. Which is a euphemism for dragging somebody, anybody through the gutter in the news. They want a focus for their bitterness and hatred, which honestly they have every right to want and to be. I would be if it were my family member. However, as it's not I'd rather they moved on it is after all as they keep telling us 21 years so from the outside we all know it would be best for them as much as anyone to drop it and focus on the people they have in their lives. Easy for me to say of course.

And of course from an entirely selfish point of view we could have safe standing which as it implies, is safe.

The families dropping their complaints will have no impact on the return of safe standing. Wether they drop their complaints or not safe standing will eventually come into this country.

[cswhitlock]

It was a very sad day, but out of interest what would you regard as 'justice for the 96'? Who is to provide it and what form would you have it take?

Well for a start i would like to see Dukenfield in court as the Taylor report stated that he and his SYP collegues were at fault for the incident and not in recipt of his full constabulary pension which he currently recieves all of the information put into the public domain and thats all not just waht Jack Straw deems fit for public viewing. I would also like to see Kelvin Mckenzie charged with incitement after the *un reported that people were "stealing from corpses" and P*ssing on ambulance and police staff which was all untrue i would also like to see that footbal fans are treated as humans not animals as not that many lessons seem to have been learnt all we have is the perfect excuse for gentrification of the sport and for the masses to be priced out. i like the way i used to watch stood on the park end and we all know that all seaters are "safer" but it has impacted on cost atmosphere and also commeraderie(sp) i just think that those that lost thier lives would not have wanted to be the catalyst for gentrification or to be left with no rememberance and if we forget them we might as well forget those lost in war and all tragedy.

[garlicbread]

Those responsible for the tragedy to be brought to justice and punished for their actions

Bit difficult to trace thousands of yobos who turned up just before kick off to mass stampede their way in

[Tim K]

Bit difficult to trace thousands of yobos who turned up just before kick off to mass stampede their way in

Might as well blame the FA for arranging the fixture while you're at it.

[Redhyde]

The families dropping their complaints will have no impact on the return of safe standing. Wether they drop their complaints or not safe standing will eventually come into this country.

I think it has a massive impact on it. If you're the one who introduces it, you've got to look the people of Liverpool in the eye and explain it. Seriously. These people stopped buying a national newspaper because of this. They would perhaps en masse stop voting for the government who does it. Who's going to take that risk?

[garlicbread]

Might as well blame the FA for arranging the fixture while you're at it.

[Redhyde]

Bit difficult to trace thousands of yobos who turned up just before kick off to mass stampede their way in

This is my problem with it. If they were told no you can't come in, it's too full. What would have happened? Well perhaps we saw the answer to that in Istanbul.

If the right decision was made, would it have stopped it? dunno.

[cswhitlock]

Bit difficult to trace thousands of yobos who turned up just before kick off to mass stampede their way in

Yeah and thats what i mean misinformation leads to misquotes GB i thought that an informed person would not make that sort of comment. have yopu read the Taylor report do you know the circumstances as to why the fans were late and that they did not stampede that the supt in charge Mr David Dukenfield was the one that said open the gate then proceded to lie to the FA saying that Fans had bust the gate open themselves

Might as well blame the Football league for arranging the fixture while you're at it.

Here Here Thanks for the sensible quote Tim

thats not a sarcastic remark i just read and felt it may be construed that way i am agreeing with the sentiment to the ridiculos comment made previously

[cswhitlock]

This is my problem with it. If they were told no you can't come in, it's too full. What would have happened? Well perhaps we saw the answer to that in Istanbul.

If the right decision was made, would it have stopped it? dunno.

But they werent told that no you cant come in they had on the reccomendation of a supt that had no experience in football or controlling fans to open an overflow gate and then fail to police the pens which fans could go into there were 4 nearly empty pens that would have taken the fans and had no one directing people to the areas

[Blagdon red]

I think it has a massive impact on it. If you're the one who introduces it, you've got to look the people of Liverpool in the eye and explain it. Seriously. These people stopped buying a national newspaper because of this. They would perhaps en masse stop voting for the government who does it. Who's going to take that risk?

Put it another way, I know that the pro-safe standing campaign would regard it as a major boost to their efforts if the families of the 96 were to declare their support for the introduction of modern, purpose-built standing areas in football stadia.

But we digress. What would the Liverpool fans (and others) who continue to call for 'justice for the 96' actually call justice? A public statement from the Home Secretary that the fans were not to blame in any way and that it was all down to poor policing and stewarding, principally the error made by Chief Superintendent Duckenfield in opening the outer gate? Or are they after more? Does it really serve any useful purpose to pursue Duckenfield through the courts? Or is it necessary to do so, so that the families can see him publicly called to account? And on what charge?

[healey robins]

Its terrible to think that for 21 years the families of the dead haven't had justice

[garlicbread]

Yeah and thats what i mean misinformation leads to misquotes GB i thought that an informed person would not make that sort of comment. have yopu read the Taylor report do you know the circumstances as to why the fans were late and that they did not stampede that the supt in charge Mr David Dukenfield was the one that said open the gate then proceded to lie to the FA saying that Fans had bust the gate open themselves

Here Here Thanks for the sensible quote Tim

This tragedy probably wouldn't not have happend with any other club. Why? A favoured tactic of the liverpool yobs at that time was to turn up in their droves just as the game was about to kick off, to cause confusion and panic and then charge their way into the grounds...force gates, jump turnstyles etc (for free)...For those who dont believe me, what happend at Heysel or Istanbul...yep, rushing the turnstyles Christ, we've even had them leaping off 30ft trees to get into wembley???

They were well known for it across europe. I know this because I have family who used to watch liverpool home and away, had witnessed this before, and were there that day.

Add this to the problems of many law abiding fans turning up late because of the roadworks....and you have the crush outside the ground that happend.

Yes, the poilce were inept at dealing with the crush outside. They were abysmal at funneling people through into other pens (a simple cordon of coppers in front of the middle pen tunnel would have sufficed). And yes, they were extremely slow to react, once people outside the middle pen had realised what was happening.

A horrendous catalogue of errors that led no unnecessary loss of life...but was started by people trying to bully and stampede their way in for free.

[cswhitlock]

Put it another way, I know that the pro-safe standing campaign would regard it as a major boost to their efforts if the families of the 96 were to declare their support for the introduction of modern, purpose-built standing areas in football stadia.

But we digress. What would the Liverpool fans (and others) who continue to call for 'justice for the 96' actually call justice? A public statement from the Home Secretary that the fans were not to blame in any way and that it was all down to poor policing and stewarding, principally the error made by Chief Superintendent Duckenfield in opening the outer gate? Or are they after more? Does it really serve any useful purpose to pursue Duckenfield through the courts? Or is it necessary to do so, so that the families can see him publicly called to account? And on what charge?

Corporate manslaughter due to incompetence and inexperience. The fact that he recives his full pension and 96 familes lost loved ones that day makes me feel sick all due to his incompetence and then followed up by his lies to the FA

[Tim K]

This tragedy probably wouldn't not have happend with any other club. Why? A favoured tactic of the liverpool yobs at that time was to turn up in their droves just as the game was about to kick off, to cause confusion and panic and then charge their way into the grounds...force gates, jump turnstyles etc (for free)...For those who dont believe me, what happend at Heysel or Istanbul...yep, rushing the turnstyles Christ, we've even had them leaping off 30ft trees to get into wembley???

They were well known for it across europe. I know this because I have family who used to watch liverpool home and away, had witnessed this before, and were there that day.

Add this to the problems of many law abiding fans turning up late because of the roadworks....and you have the crush outside the ground that happend.

Yes, the poilce were inept at dealing with the crush outside. They were abysmal at funneling people through into other pens (a simple cordon of coppers in front of the middle pen tunnel would have sufficed). And yes, they were extremely slow to react, once people outside the middle pen had realised what was happening.

A horrendous catalogue of errors that led no unnecessary loss of life...but was started by people trying to bully and stampede their way in for free.

In my opinion, they were also pretty quick to make some some frankly outrageous accusations about fans behaviour on that day and to dissipate the truth enough to leave many people fooled into diminishing their role in the tragedy - with the supporters themselves becoming the scapegoats. This must make it particularly irksome for the relatives of the dead.

[lifelong]

Well for a start i would like to see Dukenfield in court as the Taylor report stated that he and his SYP collegues were at fault for the incident and not in recipt of his full constabulary pension which he currently recieves all of the information put into the public domain and thats all not just waht Jack Straw deems fit for public viewing. I would also like to see Kelvin Mckenzie charged with incitement after the *un reported that people were "stealing from corpses" and P*ssing on ambulance and police staff which was all untrue i would also like to see that footbal fans are treated as humans not animals as not that many lessons seem to have been learnt all we have is the perfect excuse for gentrification of the sport and for the masses to be priced out. i like the way i used to watch stood on the park end and we all know that all seaters are "safer" but it has impacted on cost atmosphere and also commeraderie(sp) i just think that those that lost thier lives would not have wanted to be the catalyst for gentrification or to be left with no rememberance and if we forget them we might as well forget those lost in war and all tragedy.

Please dont liken this to young men losing their lives fighting for their country.

Don`t hear many Liverpool fans calling for justice for the 39 Juventus Fans who died at Heysel.

Garlicbread is right at the time Liverpool fans were amongst the worst behaved in Europe, I can remember them on the pitch twice at Ashton Gate.

Whilst undoubtedly Hillsborough was a horrendous tragedy it would be nice for someone from Liverpool to accept and recognise the part the behaviour of some mindless morons who called themselves Liverpool fans played in this instead of making out they were whiter than white.

[Tim K]

Please dont liken this to young men losing their lives fighting for their country.

Don`t hear many Liverpool fans calling for justice for the 39 Juventus Fans who died at Heysel.

Garlicbread is right at the time Liverpool fans were amongst the worst behaved in Europe, I can remember them on the pitch twice at Ashton Gate.

Whilst undoubtedly Hillsborough was a horrendous tragedy it would be nice for someone from Liverpool to accept and recognise the part the behaviour of some mindless morons who called themselves Liverpool fans played in this instead of making out they were whiter than white.

To be fair, he didn't say soldiers - could just as easily be referring to civilian casualties in times of war.

[garlicbread]

Please dont liken this to young men losing their lives fighting for their country.

Don`t hear many Liverpool fans calling for justice for the 39 Juventus Fans who died at Heysel.

Garlicbread is right at the time Liverpool fans were amongst the worst behaved in Europe, I can remember them on the pitch twice at Ashton Gate.

Whilst undoubtedly Hillsborough was a horrendous tragedy it would be nice for someone from Liverpool to accept and recognise the part the behaviour of some mindless morons who called themselves Liverpool fans played in this instead of making out they were whiter than white.

Spot on

[cswhitlock]

Please dont liken this to young men losing their lives fighting for their country.

Don`t hear many Liverpool fans calling for justice for the 39 Juventus Fans who died at Heysel.

I fully agree with the sentiment and the fact of the matter is that both sets of fans were at fault as were uefa for selecting a crumbling delapadated stadium not condoning any of the events in Heysel because it was abhorrent but the fact that even with the evidence that tickets were openly sold to Liverpool fans for the same end as the Juve fans the blame is squarely laid at the door of the fans

Garlicbread is right at the time Liverpool fans were amongst the worst behaved in Europe, I can remember them on the pitch twice at Ashton Gate.

and we have not got any history of bad behavior as with every club across the land we have had our fair share not to many clubs travel to rivals under "bubble restrictions"

Whilst undoubtedly Hillsborough was a horrendous tragedy it would be nice for someone from Liverpool to accept and recognise the part the behaviour of some mindless morons who called themselves Liverpool fans played in this instead of making out they were whiter than white.

and again never once stated that fans were not to blame in any form but the main reason for the disaster was police incompetence and inability to police the end properly. One thing that sticks out to me is if they knew the fans wouldnt be in the ground on time why did supt Dukenfield not procede to the refs room to delay kick-off

[Almondsbury_red]

Well for a start i would like to see Dukenfield in court as the Taylor report stated that he and his SYP collegues were at fault for the incident and not in recipt of his full constabulary pension which he currently recieves all of the information put into the public domain and thats all not just waht Jack Straw deems fit for public viewing. I would also like to see Kelvin Mckenzie charged with incitement after the *un reported that people were "stealing from corpses" and P*ssing on ambulance and police staff which was all untrue i would also like to see that footbal fans are treated as humans not animals as not that many lessons seem to have been learnt all we have is the perfect excuse for gentrification of the sport and for the masses to be priced out. i like the way i used to watch stood on the park end and we all know that all seaters are "safer" but it has impacted on cost atmosphere and also commeraderie(sp) i just think that those that lost thier lives would not have wanted to be the catalyst for gentrification or to be left with no rememberance and if we forget them we might as well forget those lost in war and all tragedy.

That isn't true. An independant safety assesment carried out on the behalf of Manchester United showed that standing and sitting for 90 minutes was a low risk. Sitting and then jumping up for a goal or a chance is a medium risk.

[Almondsbury_red]

Bit difficult to trace thousands of yobos who turned up just before kick off to mass stampede their way in

If the police hadn't opened the turnstyles and let people in the tragedy wouldn't of happened. To blame the Liverpool fans for this is just wrong.

[eastendloyal]

Don`t hear many Liverpool fans calling for justice for the 39 Juventus Fans who died at Heysel.

Garlicbread is right at the time Liverpool fans were amongst the worst behaved in Europe, I can remember them on the pitch twice at Ashton Gate.

Whilst undoubtedly Hillsborough was a horrendous tragedy it would be nice for someone from Liverpool to accept and recognise the part the behaviour of some mindless morons who called themselves Liverpool fans played in this instead of making out they were whiter than white.

completely agree with that comment

[garlicbread]

If the police hadn't opened the turnstyles and let people in the tragedy wouldn't of happened. To blame the Liverpool fans for this is just wrong.

Yes it would have, people would have been crushed to death outside

[cswhitlock]

To be fair, he didn't say soldiers - could just as easily be referring to civilian casualties in times of war.

Thanks Tim i was in fact referring to any one that has been killed due to something not within their own control as these 96 were as were countless innocent people from many walks of life through terrorisim and war and all kinds of tragedy. Its just the sheer bloody mindedness of some that believe what was quoted at the time and the fact that all of the information and evidence has not been released that this is misconstrued as a "hooliganism incident" not an failure in authority that was the root cause.

[CiderHider]

There was a lot of blame to share around, not one thing could be said to have cuaused the loss of life.

Lets just move on.

[cswhitlock]

That isn't true. An independant safety assesment carried out on the behalf of Manchester United showed that standing and sitting for 90 minutes was a low risk. Sitting and then jumping up for a goal or a chance is a medium risk.

Hence the inverted commas its propaganda to control the masses as with everything we see or hear from authority

i know i am starting to sound like Red Goblin but i agree with a lot of his statements about Government