City Announce Annual Losses Of Almost 12 Million!

[Pezo]

Or alternatively, proof that we need to be paying league one/two wages! - but then we get league 1 or league 2 players.

SL is not financing any of our squad improvements etc. He's gambling with the finances of our club and we've reached a point now where SL is the only thing that stands between us and a repeat of 1982. Even with the new stadium, there are no guarantees that we'll be able to service our debt. - I would say more than likely the new stadium wouldn't be able to service our debt but it would cut it year on year and a manageable debt is a good thing.

It's just frightening, yet many people seem blinded by the prospect of a shiny new stadium and the ability to dip our hands in our pockets at will to "strengthen" the squad. I find it hilarious that on the back of such a massive investment in playing staff, SL exercises frugality when appointing a manager - the gel that binds it all together (I'm talking purely about the appointment from a financial perspective). - I think his rational for the appointment was sound, they had just gone through appointing a manager KM was 2nd best Coppel was best and they werent going to get anyone differnt appointments over what they got last time.

Football is badly broken and if playing catch-up with everyone else means that we go to the wall (along with many other clubs, I'm sure), I'd rather we set our delusions of grandeur to one side and managed our finances sensibly until the bubble inevitably bursts, at which point we'll be able to afford a new stadium as an investment rather than a debt-servicing cash cow. - were not playing catch up though, were playing keep up with those around us, everyone else seems to be paying over there income as well, not paying over income is the only way to keep up so we either pay over income or go back down to league 1 where we still made a loss and everyone pretty much does the same on a smaller scale.

I look back at cold Tuesday nights with a Bovril in the open end and think to myself "is it really that much better/more fun now?" Enough to warrant our finances being on their arse? Enough that match day ticket prices are so expensive that they're putting people off of going? - some people are put off by high ticket prices but we make more money out of having a 70% filled stadium with everyone paying £25 a ticket than a full stadium of everyone paying £15 a ticket.

I pretty much agree with everything you say but there are arguments against most things. Football is broken but football is broken because of players and there strangely asking for more money a week than some people earn in 3 or even 5 years! I firmly believe that the top 2 leagues could allow everyone in for free and make a cracking profit to pay into youth development if wages were amazing wages by most peoples standards i.e. 100k a year - but that doesn't seem to be the way it works.

(I know contradiction in terms) but he seems to understand the British psychology of debt that is essentially - there is only one rule of debt and that is "don't worry, it will be OK".

[Slave to the rhythm]

Lets just calm down, every club has a loss associated with the club, a lot of the money is in this new ground I am sure.

But we should be thankful we want to move forward and are looking to improve the playing squad every season.

Thank you to Mr Lansdown for being at the helm and showing a good business brain.

Only about £2million of the £12million loss is due to the new stadium. That means the football club effectively made a £10million loss!

It's insane, totally insane.

[Slave to the rhythm]

That seems like a lot but as this whole country is in debt up to its eyeballs and the most likely course of action is for a devaluation of currency causing inflation and high interest rates to try and control that inflation. With this in mind it is good to be in debt with no interest payments because money is going to be worth less (i.e. being in debt to Lansdown) but this is also good for Lansdown as having money "invested" is a lot safer and will return more money long term.

Basically its a lot now but it wont be a lot in 5 years time.

What a barmy post. Your grasp of economics is flimsy, to say the least.

[Fireman Sam]

I don't blame SL if he leaves

The Council sold him that land knowing he was going to build a new Stadium

If you can't trust your own council you may as well stop and spend your hard earned money on the Sun Sea Sex and good times. You only live once!

I can't believe the whole of Bristol can be held up by a couple of households, that know the land behind them (A tip) can be built on at any time!

HOW CAN ANYBODY CALL IT A VILLAGE! It's a housing estate, not on the edge of Bristol BUT PART OF BRISTOL!

There are also plans going forward for 10,000 houses to be built in the same area. AND THE COUNCIL AND LOCAlS KNOW THIS

Also there are plans to join the A38 with the A370 within touching distance also (Better road for Airport and help the Ring road)

And all this is now happening because a couple of households want to walk their dogs across a load of weeds.

Half of the development will give them a lovely dog walking park with small lakes and picnic areas. (That would put the price their houses up, having a lovely park on your doorstep that is looked after and maintained week after week.

Also how can the Council allow the Gash ground to go ahead if they turn us down? (Increasing the Rugby Ground Size?)

The Gash ground, you cannot swing a cat in! And there is no parking at all!

Now lets see what happens next Tuesday?

[Pezo]

What a barmy post. Your grasp of economics is flimsy, to say the least.

Its a prediction of economics so it will be flimsy! If you could explain where I went wrong it would be appreciated.

[BCFC_Dan]

Oh dear. Pot, kettle, black.

The difference being the size of the debt and who it's owed to.

[Riaz]

Oh dear. Pot, kettle, black.

not really. because our owner will always pay the bills that the club cannot afford to pay.......

big losses yes. But we never have issues with paying the HMRC or other clubs do we?? When have we had a transfer embargo?

To be fair though, your new owners seem okay so far.

[The Hippo]

Steve Lansdown without him at the helm we'd certainly still be back in the depths of league one looking forward to games v hartlepool, carlisle and the like!

[Slave to the rhythm]

Our chairman also pays our bills. And no you haven't had a transfer embargo. But you have gone into administration which we haven't. And, out of interest, do you think that SL will pay the bills you can't afford in perpetuity?

When did we go into administration? 1982?

No, SL isn't going to fund the club in perpetuity. He has said as much this morning.

[Riaz]

Our chairman also pays our bills. And no you haven't had a transfer embargo. But you have gone into administration which we haven't. And, out of interest, do you think that SL will pay the bills you can't afford in perpetuity?

we have'nt been in administration in recent years, not since SL has been here.

Your new owners pay the bills, but the previous regime did'nt did they?

You surely did'nt like risdale and his corrupt ways?

SL has said he'll never leave us in the sh!t. I think he'll leave if the stadium does not happen - but he'll never bankrupt the club.

[BCFC_Dan]

Our chairman also pays our bills. And no you haven't had a transfer embargo. But you have gone into administration which we haven't. And, out of interest, do you think that SL will pay the bills you can't afford in perpetuity?

No he won't.

He'll pay them until either we're a stable and self-sufficient club, which will almost certainly require the new stadium, Premier League football and a productive academy, all of which are nearly but not quite there at the moment, or until it's clear that the former is not possible at which point we're screwed. But at least we have a chance. Without Steve Lansdown we'd just be screwed.

[Portland Bill]

Our chairman also pays our bills. And no you haven't had a transfer embargo. But you have gone into administration which we haven't. And, out of interest, do you think that SL will pay the bills you can't afford in perpetuity?

I expect we will just go over to the far east, go down on our hands and knees and beg some unknown Malaysian to bail us out.

Perhaps we can find one who gambles with football clubs:whistle2:

[Slave to the rhythm]

No he won't.

He'll pay them until either we're a stable and self-sufficient club, which will almost certainly require the new stadium, Premier League football and a productive academy, all of which are nearly but not quite there at the moment, or until it's clear that the former is not possible at which point we're screwed. But at least we have a chance. Without Steve Lansdown we'd just be screwed.

Dan, to describe Premier League Football as being "nearly but not quite there" is something of an understatement bearing in mind our league position!!

I would dearly love to see an analysis of that £13million wage bill.

[CotswoldRed]

I haven't looked at the detail, but its surely in the interest of the club to maximise the loss (not to simply lose money but to work as much loss into the figures). There are ways and means.

This keeps to a minimum any tax liability.

It may not be as bad as it appears, but which ever way you dress it up it ain't good, is it?

[Pezo]

I expect we will just go over to the far east, go down on our hands and knees and beg some unknown Malaysian to bail us out.

Perhaps we can find one who gambles with football clubs:whistle2:

I assume when you say get down on hands and knees your not referring to the begging part.

[Slave to the rhythm]

Its a prediction of economics so it will be flimsy! If you could explain where I went wrong it would be appreciated.

You basically said that all debt will be written off in a few years, when our currency is devalued to such an extent that money will become worthless.

The only way that will happen is if there's some kind of Armageddon event and the human race starts again, with all previous debts wiped away. Erasing debt to the extent that you mentioned simply won't happen in the normal course of events.

[BCFC_Dan]

Dan, to describe Premier League Football as being "nearly but not quite there" is something of an understatement bearing in mind our league position!!

I would dearly love to see an analysis of that £13million wage bill.

It's closer than it was when Lansdown took over, and I'm confident that come the end of this season we'll be at worst one step away from it. A good run could see things turn out even better, though I won't be holding my breath.

In the grand scheme of things we're not too far off.

[HomerRed]

Also how can the Council allow the Gash ground to go ahead if they turn us down? (Increasing the Rugby Ground Size?)

The Gash ground, you cannot swing a cat in! And there is no parking at all!

Now lets see what happens next Tuesday?

I know the council has a justified reputation for blocking anything remotely progressive, but they have granted permission for the stadium.

The village green thing has been incredibly obstructive and costly already, even if the City United campaign eventually wins the day.

Having watched the Lansdown interview on Player, I have no reason to doubt his sincerity and never have done.

Worst case scenario, he says he won't leave the club in the lurch. Best case scenario, we get the stadium and the prospect of a brighter future.

The thing I would question from that interview is he talked about the revenue from a 30,000 plus stadium and seemed to be basing the notion on filling the stadium regularly. If the stadium was ready this Saturday, for sake of argument, we would be doing REALLY well to get 20,000 in there.

That part of the dream seems to be based on Premier League football.

Hmmm ..... Wigan, Bolton, Blackpool, Blackburn, Fulham, Stoke - do they guarantee full houses at Ashton Vale?

[lugger]

Debt management is a long term strategy and a strategy that, luckily enough for us, is in the hands of a man who manages the tides and not the waves. The immediate picture is not clever on first glance but the investment in our main asset, the team, is where the game is won or lost. We've got some of the team that is a depreciating asset - getting towards teh end of their career but many more that should appreciate in value so as long as that balance is under control we have a bright future. It does feel like a massive punt this game sometimes but at the minute we're investing in the big push but as soon as that changes or SL pulls out (which simply isn't going to happen) we can make money on the transfer market.

[Dolman Block B]

Been thinking about this all morning.

Wont say a state of shock" but bigger debt than i expected. I think the whole situation about Bristol City,s future lies with the decision over the new stadium.

Just how far the chairman will go if it is turnt down, none of us know. But this is some seroius debt, and one that really will not go away until the club can produce more revenue.

Infact it could get worse unless at least 10 players are either sold, loaned out or released. The problem with that is most other clubs are in this dire situation, so who will really want our "cast offs2 ????

[Nogbad the Bad]

No he won't.

He'll pay them until either we're a stable and self-sufficient club, which will almost certainly require the new stadium, Premier League football and a productive academy, all of which are nearly but not quite there at the moment, or until it's clear that the former is not possible at which point we're screwed. But at least we have a chance. Without Steve Lansdown we'd just be screwed.

No, we're not 'screwed without the new stadium, Premier League football and a productive academy'.

To quote CodeRed above, "SL said that without the new stadium he would look for someone fresh to take the club forward. He stressed that he wouldn't leave the club in the lurch financially and wouldn't do anything to jeopardise the club but would look to withdraw from the helm".

So although he would feel minded to move on he would nevertheless stay for as long as it took to find someone suitable to replace him..

[BCFC_Dan]

No, we're not 'screwed without the new stadium, Premier League football and a productive academy'.

To quote CodeRed above, "SL said that without the new stadium he would look for someone fresh to take the club forward. He stressed that he wouldn't leave the club in the lurch financially and wouldn't do anything to jeopardise the club but would look to withdraw from the helm".

So although he would feel minded to move on he would nevertheless stay for as long as it took to find someone suitable to replace him..

Sorry, yes you're right. I don't believe Lansdown would withdraw his support abruptly, but I do think the club would be forced to cut back and accept a small-time future.

If Lansdown leaves it will most likely be because he's been unable to provide the stadium and level of football necessary for the club to be self-sufficient. If he fails do you honestly think there's much chance of someone else coming along and trying again? I don't think Lansdown will give up until he's tried everything and I can't see him being followed by anyone better.

[Us_and_Them]

I would dearly love to see an analysis of that £13million wage bill.

[Nibor]

None of this is a surprise? The losses are about what was expected. We spent a sodding fortune last season which was for me why the performance up until GJ left was such a big disappointment - I think maybe too many people bought into the "little ole Bristol City" idea and didn't realise that we were spending like the big boys.

The emphasis of matter has been in every set of accounts for at least the last five years so don't worry too much. It basically says we run at a loss without looking like that changing, most football clubs do. Worry about that if it happens a few years after we have a new stadium and are in the Prem.

Only disappointing bit is that because these are the Holdings accounts (parent company) the football wage costs aren't shown separately. That means I don't know whether I won or lost the bet I made with Madger yet!

[FanaticRed]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Thank god for Lansdown.

Mabie, Mabie not... afterall hes the 1 gambling Bristol Citys future (granted with good intentions) but if they dont pay off then we really are up the creek... he said so himself that he cant keep self funding the club and i wouldnt expect him to, a business needs to support itself inorder to be successful.

I wouldnt like to be in his position, only time will tell i supose.

[Mr Popodopolous]

One thing that isn't so clear.

When it says £13m wage bill- is it referring to the payroll of the club as a whole or just the playing side of things?

Cheers.

[Pezo]

You basically said that all debt will be written off in a few years, when our currency is devalued to such an extent that money will become worthless.

The only way that will happen is if there's some kind of Armageddon event and the human race starts again, with all previous debts wiped away. Erasing debt to the extent that you mentioned simply won't happen in the normal course of events.

I see - no what I said was worth less not worthless i.e. the value will be relatively a lower amount I didn't say it would be valueless. I'm talking about inflation at a fast pace lowering the amount of debt in real terms.

[Nogbad the Bad]

Sorry, yes you're right. I don't believe Lansdown would withdraw his support abruptly, but I do think the club would be forced to cut back and accept a small-time future.

If Lansdown leaves it will most likely be because he's been unable to provide the stadium and level of football necessary for the club to be self-sufficient. If he fails do you honestly think there's much chance of someone else coming along and trying again? I don't think Lansdown will give up until he's tried everything and I can't see him being followed by anyone better.

The vast majority of BCFC's history has been in the 2nd and 3rd divisions - perhaps that has been proven over time to be our natural place in the league structure without putting the club financially at risk.

Getting to the top division in the 70's eventually almost finished us off, even though we bought very few of the players that achieved promotion, or indeed paid out many large fees during the 4 seasons we were up there.

If we're horrified by our wage bill now, it will appear a pittance compared to what we'll be paying out if we do get to the PL.

I'm sure SL would indeed find a suitable replacement before he ever left - if this new man then saw his goal as maintaining BCFC as a stable Championship club first and foremost, with less of an obsession with getting to the Premier League and all the financial risk that entails, that would be fine by me.

[FanaticRed]

I heard this. Basically we're screwed if we don't get the stadium go ahead... but then we knew that already.

Gamble, Gamble, Gamble... thats all i cant say!

Lets hope this Gamble pays off, because if it doesnt then we are doooooooomed! not to mention the fact that our future remains in the councils hands (not a great position to be in, for obvious reasons, im sure everyone would agree)

[BCFC_Dan]

I'm sure SL would indeed find a suitable replacement before he ever left - if this new man then saw his goal as maintaining BCFC as a stable Championship club first and foremost, with less of an obsession with getting to the Premier League and all the financial risk that entails, that would be fine by me.

This is the problem.

I don't believe it's actually possible for us to be a "stable Championship club". We've just lost over £10m in a year and the team is in the relegation zone.

Now I do believe that this squad is capable of better and will soon move up the table, and I also believe it would be possible to stay up whilst spending less. However, could anyone build a team capable of staying up whilst paying £10m less in wages?

With no alternative revenue streams coming in and a relatively fickle fan base I don't see how it's possible to maintain Bristol City as a going concern in the Championship.

The most similar club in terms of size, position and facilities that I can think of is Watford and whilst I don't know what their figures look like I do know that they've been at least flirting with administration over the past few years (and they've had a couple of Premier League seasons to boost funds.)

I'd love to believe we could "cut our cloth according to our means" but I just don't see how that's possible. We have to gamble, we have to spend (sensible) and we have to hope.