numbeast Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 I was going to post this on another thread in answer to our search for a creative midfielder but decided to give it a thread of it's own. Much has been said about the need of this most hallowed of players, a creative midfielder and on another thread the name of Jonathon Greening was mentioned and his ability to pas the ball. This made me think of the Swansea game and the difference between us and them as regards passing.To me, I don't think their passing was much , if any better than ours but the difference was the movement off the ball which allowed them the space to recieve it without pressure, where as our players were either stationary or had little movement to their game and thus had a man on them straight away. I don't recall any "Hartley-esque" long passes from the Swans midfield but many more Lee Johnson types of 5 to 10 yards to a free man, in short they worked the ball. Retaining posession built pressure with little "give and go's" meaning our midfield and defence were always chasing shadows. Having a guy sat in front of the back four gave them an outlet without danger of the ball being intercepted and once they moved out of defence they supported the man on the ball so if there wasn't a pass forward then a knock to the side or back (yes just like LJ who I feel play close to the Swansea way albeit without the same degree of success) kept the play moving until there was the opportunity to get going forward. My point is they never really had that creative midfielder but with intellegent movement they didn't need him. My worry is if we do find a replacement for Paul Hartley he would be wasted due to the lack of players moving into space to recieve the pass. We need to look at the Swansea model and get the entire team moving giving the man in posession more than one option and then it will remove the need of the big hopful hoof down field. We have a decent squad who are all capable of playing this way but our full backs need to be availible to recieve the ball from James (notice how few times their keeper punted the ball forward?) and then keep it moving. The midfield we have now and I include LJ can all pass 5 to 10 yards accurately to a team mate, and we have the option of the wings that can be exploited as well as building through the centre. So do we really need as opposed to would like a Greening or can we get our players to use their brains in which case Lee Johnson could be the player (or type of player for all those who really dislike him) we need? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmNick Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 Their passing was definitely better than ours. A creative midfielder isn't just about hitting 60 yards balls like you mentioned, a 10 yard pass can be just as effective you're right, but the big difference is that Swansea passed far more incisively than us and their passes contributed to the momentum of their play rather than stalling it. I don't think it's fair to say that after all the different players that have been at this club recently, our passing has been fine but it is their movement that is letting us down. For me Lee can't do this job because although he can sometimes play these short passes well, they don't help to contribute to an attacking move, they are rather passes that are just "treading water" as we're not really sure what to do. For me a creative midfielder is number one priority, and has been for a long time now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InCider Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 I was going to post this on another thread in answer to our search for a creative midfielder but decided to give it a thread of it's own. Much has been said about the need of this most hallowed of players, a creative midfielder and on another thread the name of Jonathon Greening was mentioned and his ability to pas the ball. This made me think of the Swansea game and the difference between us and them as regards passing.To me, I don't think their passing was much , if any better than ours but the difference was the movement off the ball which allowed them the space to recieve it without pressure, where as our players were either stationary or had little movement to their game and thus had a man on them straight away. I don't recall any "Hartley-esque" long passes from the Swans midfield but many more Lee Johnson types of 5 to 10 yards to a free man, in short they worked the ball. Retaining posession built pressure with little "give and go's" meaning our midfield and defence were always chasing shadows. Having a guy sat in front of the back four gave them an outlet without danger of the ball being intercepted and once they moved out of defence they supported the man on the ball so if there wasn't a pass forward then a knock to the side or back (yes just like LJ who I feel play close to the Swansea way albeit without the same degree of success) kept the play moving until there was the opportunity to get going forward. My point is they never really had that creative midfielder but with intellegent movement they didn't need him. My worry is if we do find a replacement for Paul Hartley he would be wasted due to the lack of players moving into space to recieve the pass. We need to look at the Swansea model and get the entire team moving giving the man in posession more than one option and then it will remove the need of the big hopful hoof down field. We have a decent squad who are all capable of playing this way but our full backs need to be availible to recieve the ball from James (notice how few times their keeper punted the ball forward?) and then keep it moving. The midfield we have now and I include LJ can all pass 5 to 10 yards accurately to a team mate, and we have the option of the wings that can be exploited as well as building through the centre. So do we really need as opposed to would like a Greening or can we get our players to use their brains in which case Lee Johnson could be the player (or type of player for all those who really dislike him) we need? I take your point on our movement and this is clearly something we need to work on in training. However, Swansea are set up in such a way that they concede few and create very few chances. Indeed, this has been their downfall over the last 2 seasons (maybe the difference between play-offs and automatic promotion). Out of all the teams in the top half, only Hull have scored less at home. Seeing as most of our fans want to see attacking football, I'm not sure that style would be popular here. It looks like Clarkson could be a short term solution as a creative midfielder, but IMO is still the area of the team we most urgently need to address. Swansea also have players that seem a lot more confident in keeping possession. Players like Elliot for example are good at what they do (in his case breaking up opposition attacks and providing energy in the middle of the park), but aren't necessarily that suited to retaining the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
numbeast Posted February 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 I may have over simplified things a little but to me we don't make enough space to allow the simple pass. It was because players off the ball made space for themselves that Swansea were able to play the crisp passes the did. The only 2 player we have who do that on a regular basis are Albert and Andy Keogh and because of his movement Albert gets so much of the ball whereas JCR and Danny Rose rely on speed alone. Maybe we do need a midfield creator or at least someone who can boss the midfield and those around him but we need to move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon79 Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 I was going to post this on another thread in answer to our search for a creative midfielder but decided to give it a thread of it's own. Much has been said about the need of this most hallowed of players, a creative midfielder and on another thread the name of Jonathon Greening was mentioned and his ability to pas the ball. This made me think of the Swansea game and the difference between us and them as regards passing.To me, I don't think their passing was much , if any better than ours but the difference was the movement off the ball which allowed them the space to recieve it without pressure, where as our players were either stationary or had little movement to their game and thus had a man on them straight away. I don't recall any "Hartley-esque" long passes from the Swans midfield but many more Lee Johnson types of 5 to 10 yards to a free man, in short they worked the ball. Retaining posession built pressure with little "give and go's" meaning our midfield and defence were always chasing shadows. Having a guy sat in front of the back four gave them an outlet without danger of the ball being intercepted and once they moved out of defence they supported the man on the ball so if there wasn't a pass forward then a knock to the side or back (yes just like LJ who I feel play close to the Swansea way albeit without the same degree of success) kept the play moving until there was the opportunity to get going forward. My point is they never really had that creative midfielder but with intellegent movement they didn't need him. My worry is if we do find a replacement for Paul Hartley he would be wasted due to the lack of players moving into space to recieve the pass. We need to look at the Swansea model and get the entire team moving giving the man in posession more than one option and then it will remove the need of the big hopful hoof down field. We have a decent squad who are all capable of playing this way but our full backs need to be availible to recieve the ball from James (notice how few times their keeper punted the ball forward?) and then keep it moving. The midfield we have now and I include LJ can all pass 5 to 10 yards accurately to a team mate, and we have the option of the wings that can be exploited as well as building through the centre. So do we really need as opposed to would like a Greening or can we get our players to use their brains in which case Lee Johnson could be the player (or type of player for all those who really dislike him) we need? On the whole, i agree with your theory. (here comes the BUT!) You mentioned the Johnathon Greening name that has been mentioned ( possibly by myself yesterday?), i didnt mention him for his Hartley esque passing ability( who i dont really see as a creative midfielder, which the facts back up. Although a very good midfielder), i mentioned him because he is a player who is always in space, has a good touch, ability to carry the ball and retain possesion,beat a man and can score the odd goal. On top of that, he knows the championship and more importantly how to get out of it. So if you like, he would fit into the Swansea team very well. I totally agree with you about getting more out of our players, coaching them to move etc. Rather than always looking over the fence and thinking the grass is greener. Work with what we have got, but obviously make the odd tweek here and there to improve certain aspects of our play. Im not sure for example if Elliott could play in the Swansea way, as he has too many touches to get the ball under control and then to get his head up to make the next pass ( i dont say this to knock Marvin as he obviously brings other aspects to our team, but it is fact). But this could be worked on for sure. As i said, i do agree with the principal of your thread, especially the movement aspect. Ive said it many times before on here and it does baffill me that professional footballers do not or choose not to understand the importance of movement. If you play the "Swansea" way, you need 11 players who are all comfortable on the ball as well as the movement to match. Because if you have too many touches the movement is irrelevant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 Do you believe we have the coaching staff competent enough to actually achieve the standard you speak of? because I have seen very little evidence to convince me over the past 2 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 Clever, quick movement is very important, makes players harder to track and pick up- definitely needs to be emphasised majorly. However, a good creative midfielder (i.e. Greening) wouldn't go amiss either! Interchanging, switching and so on is all very useful for a team to have though- flexibility essentially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOTR Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 For all this talk of Swansea's style of play they have only lost three less games than us,and we've been poor this season.Want we want is winning football,yes with a bit of flair,but not passing for passing sake.Why pass the ball 9-10 times when you can get the same result with 2-3 passes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Batman Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 For all this talk of Swansea's style of play they have only lost three less games than us,and we've been poor this season.Want we want is winning football,yes with a bit of flair,but not passing for passing sake.Why pass the ball 9-10 times when you can get the same result with 2-3 passes. can't argue with that. However, keeping the ball frustrates the opposition and drags players out of position. It is what makes Barcelona and Spain so special. Arsenal are the best of the British teams but somehow dont like winning trophies by doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 can't argue with that. However, keeping the ball frustrates the opposition and drags players out of position. It is what makes Barcelona and Spain so special. Arsenal are the best of the British teams but somehow dont like winning trophies by doing it. Agree with that. In addition to which, keeping possession- with a sideways or backwards pass is more useful than losing it cheaply by trying to force the play with a possibly rash forward ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOTR Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 can't argue with that. However, keeping the ball frustrates the opposition and drags players out of position. It is what makes Barcelona and Spain so special. Arsenal are the best of the British teams but somehow dont like winning trophies by doing it. Can't ever remember a Brian Clough team over passing,and they were a bit good wern't they.Remember them tearing us apart at the gate,quick counter attacking football at its best,and only 4-5 passes one end to the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiale Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 It does not matter where the creativity comes from and to be fair with Woolford and Adomah on the pitch I think we can create chances - I would actually like to see Maynard play in a free role just behind the strikers when fit as he has excellent ball control and first touch (able to create chances out of nothing) and is the man I would 100% want the ball to drop to outside the area. What we need more than a creative midfield player is someone who can get the ball and dictate the tempo of the game, slowing it down if the opposition is in ascendancy or injection of pace to keep the opposition wrong footed. At the end of the day if you have the more possesion the less time to concede. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garland-sweden Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 For all this talk of Swansea's style of play they have only lost three less games than us,and we've been poor this season.Want we want is winning football,yes with a bit of flair,but not passing for passing sake.Why pass the ball 9-10 times when you can get the same result with 2-3 passes. Totally agree. Ok the beat us at the gate. Ive seen them 2-3 times in Swedish TV, its looks nice when they pass on the floor many times, but its not effective. They had an portugis manager and he offcause wanted Swans play the portugal way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redcliffe 78 Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 You can only create if the players in front of you make the runs, Maynard makes these runs and brings the team into it, big miss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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