Full Disclosure Of Government Docs Relating To Hillsborough

[TRL]

I realise you seem to act as a police spokesperson TRL, but if I'd made catastrophic errors of judgement which led to nearly 100 people dying I'd expect to be held responsible for it.

I don't know if South Yorkshire Police were in part responsible for all those deaths but there is a fair degree of evidence that it was a **** up of monumental proportions by the people charged with - and being paid for - enforcing public safety.

At any rate, we deserve to know - and in particular the bereaved families deserve to know.

An inquiry is entirely in the public interest and I'm very happy to sign the petition.

Well done Joey Barton.

Not realy a spokesmen, just sometimes feel they do get a hard time, sure the deserve some of the stuff that comes their way, But for as long as I can remember there has been anti police feeling from a majority of football fans. So I try to add a bit of perspective.

Yep the was a balls up of epic proportions at Hillsborough, but there is a reason a balls up took place and people, not just the police must take responsibility for their actions, but it is conveniantly brushed under the carpet.

[kev_1963]

Done

[Frome Valley]

Read up further from my first hand experience... not reading from reports, ticket holding and ticket less fans rushing a the turn styles is what i saw first hand, and i was pulled/stepped out from that crush. There is culpability at every level, fans police and stewards, no one comes out rosey from it and not one single demo-graph should be explicitly blamed for it. Cause and reaction.

Lord Justice Taylor despite reports,police testimony and BBC camera footage outside "neglected" to mention this ticketless charge in his report. The HSE whose role it is to investigate matters of this kind found no evidence either.

Both would deal with facts.

[TRL]

Lord Justice Taylor despite reports,police testimony and BBC camera footage outside "neglected" to mention this ticketless charge in his report. The HSE whose role it is to investigate matters of this kind found no evidence either.

Both would deal with facts.

I am basing it on the FACT I was there and caught in it, it is all the FACT I need, I don't need to read FACTS from a report. FACT

[Blagdon red]

Looks to me as though all are right here. There evidently WERE some Liverpool fans without tickets in the push to get in. Lord Justice Taylor, however, concluded that they were not a significant contributory factor in the disaster (as per the excerpt from his report below). Thanks to the success of this petition, we may now get new light thrown on the events of that day, the full picture of which can naturally only be gained from multiple perspectives.

Interim Taylor Report Extract:

Were Fans Without Tickets a Major Factor in the Build-Up?

200. It has become a fact of football life that fans do turn up at all-ticket matches without tickets. It is not possible to give an accurate figure or even a reliable estimate of the number without tickets on 15 April. Police estimates varied from about 200 to about 2,000. There were certainly frequent requests for tickets or "spares" during the hours before the build-up. Many of those warned off by the police were seen to return to the area. Some were hanging about on the bridge. Again, however, the police witnesses who most impressed me did not consider the number of ticketless fans to be inordinately large. This accords with two other sources of evidence.

201. First, there was a wide range of witnesses who observed inside the ground that the Liverpool end was at a late stage well below capacity save for pens 3 and 4. The north stand still had many empty seats and the wing pens were sparse. The match being a sell-out, there were clearly many ticket holders to come and they could account for the large crowd still outside the turnstiles. Had the Liverpool accommodation been full by 2.40 pm, one could have inferred that most or much of the large crowd outside lacked tickets.

202. Secondly, such figures as are available from the Club's electronic monitoring system and from analyses by the HSE suggest that no great number entered without tickets. They show that the number who passed through turnstiles A to G plus those who entered through gate C roughly equalled the terrace capacity figure of 10,100 for which tickets had been sold. The Club's record showed 7,038 passed through turnstiles A to G. However, the counting mechanism on turnstile G was defective, so the HSE did a study using the video film

and projecting figures from the other turnstiles. This gave an assessment of 7,494, with a maximum of 7,644 passing through A to G. Again, using the video, the HSE assessed the number who entered the ground whilst gate C was open at 2,240 with a maximum of 2,480. Accordingly, the HSE's best estimate of the total entering through gate C and turnstiles A to G was 9,734 with a maximum of 10,124.1 recognise that these can only be rough checks because, for example, some with terrace tickets were allowed through turnstiles 1 to 16 and there

would be other similar factors which have not formed part of the assessment. Nevertheless, the figures do suggest that there was not a very significant body of ticketless fans in the crowd which built up.

The "Conspiracy" Theory

203. On behalf of South Yorkshire police, the theory was advanced that the "late" arrival of so many Liverpool supporters was planned to buck the system. The suggestion was that fans without tickets conspired to arrive late and create such trouble as would force the police to admit them to the match. The slender evidence upon which this theory rested came from two sources: overheard conversations in public houses and the antecedent history of Liverpool supporters at away matches.

204. One witness said he heard three Liverpool supporters saying, in effect, that they would manage to get in without tickets by causing trouble so that police would open a gate, and that they had done this before. Another witness heard two of a group of Liverpool supporters say they had no tickets, that they would go to the ground just before kick-off, that no-one would stop them getting in and that they had not been stopped yet. Statements were put in relating to two other small groups talking in similar terms.

Liverpool Supporters at Away Matches

205. The South Yorkshire police prepared a dossier of reports on the behaviour of Liverpool fans at away matches with the object of showing a pattern of troublesome behaviour by large numbers either without tickets or with forged tickets. Without setting out the whole history, it can be summarised as follows.

206. On three occasions Liverpool fans without tickets were allowed into all-ticket matches upon payment. (At Watford on 13 February 1988, 1,500 were admitted; at Southampton on 24 September 1988, 150 were admitted; at Southampton again on 12 December 1988, 750 were admitted.) At Norwich on 1 April 1989, Liverpool supporters arrived without tickets but 1,272 tickets had been returned and fans from both Liverpool

and Norwich were allowed to buy them for cash. A similar situation occurred at Wimbledon on 13 May 1989. There were six other occasions from 1986 to date, including the Cup finals of 1986 and 1989, when numbers of Liverpool supporters turned up without tickets or otherwise behaved badly.

207. Four points must be noted, however. On none of the occasions when ticketless fans were admitted for payment was the match a sell-out. There was therefore room in the ground on each occasion. At a sell-out fans might not expect to be allowed in, even for payment. Secondly, no trouble of the kind alleged was encountered at the 1988 semi-final when Liverpool visited Hillsborough. Thirdly, Liverpool visited Hillsborough again in January 1989 without any trouble. Finally, no forged tickets were in use on 15 April apart from three crude

photocopies.

No Conspiracy

208. I have already found that there was not an abnormally large number of fans without tickets on this occasion. With one or two exceptions, the police witnesses themselves did not subscribe to the "conspiracy" theory. I am satisfied that the large concentration at Leppings Lane from 2.30 pm to 2.50 pm did not arrive as a result of any concerted plan. There were, I accept, small groups without tickets who were willing to exploit any adventitious chance of getting into the ground. They, together with the minority who had drunk too much,

certainly aggravated the problem faced by the police. But that main problem was simply one of large numbers packed into the small area outside the turnstiles.

[notsobigfatdave]

[Red-Robbo]

Crowds pushing to get into a football match! Whatever next!!

Surely, that is what the police and club stewarding network is supposed to be set up to deal with. No-one's suggesting anyone deliberately allowed people to die but the planning and control on the day were woeful.

What gets people's backs up is that there was not even a disciplinary for this disastrous situation - indeed some senior officers enjoyed rapid promotions. The man in charge - Supt David Duckinfield - despite having admitted giving false testimony to the FA about the disaster was allowed to avoid a private prosecuton by retiring 'on medical grounds' on a full pension.

[TRL]

[notsobigfatdave]

Crowds pushing to get into a football match! Whatever next!!

This was something completely different Im afraid unless you witnessed it its very difficult to eulogise so

Surely, that is what the police and club stewarding network is supposed to be set up to deal with. No-one's suggesting anyone deliberately allowed people to die but the planning and control on the day were woeful.

But by the same token you would expect fee paying human beings to behave in an appropriate manner would you not?

What gets people's backs up is that there was not even a disciplinary for this disastrous situation - indeed some senior officers enjoyed rapid promotions. The man in charge - Supt David Duckinfield - despite having admitted giving false testimony to the FA about the disaster was allowed to avoid a private prosecuton by retiring 'on medical grounds' on a full pension.

Thats quite so ...however over 3000 Liverpool supporters must be culpable also. QED

The enquiry was made the results divulged a responsibilities apportioned...lets leave it at that. IMO.

[Red-Robbo]

But that's the trouble Dave. Responsibilities haven't been apportioned. Responsibilities have been ducked.

And an inquiry that doesn't have all the facts isn't a proper inquiry.

[Palletways]

I agree, hindsight is a wonderful thing. Fans were intialliy to blame, Police then chose the wrong option, an option they wouldn't have had to make if people acted in the correct manner. I remember being very frightened being pushed toward the turnstyles, luckily my father pulled me up a dragged me out. Lucky for us we were not already inside or our trip to Hillsborough could have been completely diffeent.

this is turning in to a blame crusade, and it doesn't matte who is to blame, the people pushing the crusdae have their targets in their sights.

All I know if the gates had not been opened it may have been me crushed!

This was one of footballs worst days , Horrific , I think your right with the Blame thing , For football every fan that was about when this happened

they know exactly who was at fault ..

Think it should be left as that . It must be terrible for the relitives bringing all this up

[Red-Robbo]

This was one of footballs worst days , Horrific , I think your right with the Blame thing , For football every fan that was about when this happened

they know exactly who was at fault ..

Think it should be left as that . It must be terrible for the relitives bringing all this up

It's the relatives who want to see the withheld documents. They started the campaign.

[Palletways]

It's the relatives who want to see the withheld documents. They started the campaign.

I was not aware of that sorry .

[downendcity]

[notsobigfatdave]

But that's the trouble Dave. Responsibilities haven't been apportioned. Responsibilities have been ducked.

And an inquiry that doesn't have all the facts isn't a proper inquiry.

With respect Robbo you could kick this enquiry backwards and forwards for the next 25 years and wouldnt get a satisfactory result. call me cynical if you wish but this is down to money or compensation at the end of the day, if the ultimate blame is rested with the Police Authorities the Liverpuddlian families of the victims will be on the phone to injury lawyers for you in a flash..might sound callous but its true...No doubt if you and I had lost a loved one we would be doing the same.

Those killed in the disaster generally were those Liverpool supporters who had gained safe access previously, the cause was the actions of their fellow supporters. whether the gates were opened by the Police, the Pope or the Virgin Mary it doesnt matter one jot.

Surely Liverool FC should be in a position to further compensate those innocent supporters families who died that day and look after their own fold the way that the Police commission has. £276 thousand for each Victim would pay Suarez transfer fee after all !

Im sorry but I dont buy al this "Truth must come out " balony we are a race of Mercenaries, nothing less.

[db1291]

I have not posted before, but Bigfatdave's post has caused me to do so:

1. Even if 50 fans did not have tickets, there were 10,000 fans with tickets for the Leppings Lane End. Ticketless fans were irrelevant.

2. There could not have been any "rush" at the gate because there was a huge crush of people caused by the fact that few turnstyles were open and they were old and narrow. There was no room to rush. There was an enormous tailback of people filing every available space outside the ground.

3. Bigfatdave could not have given his statement to all the poeple he claims as there was never any gathering of statements from fans. Neither the coroner, the inquiry nor anyone else gathered statements from fans.

4. This is not about compensation. The Police admitted liability almost immeidately. Every one with a claim was paid 20 years ago by the Police who

admitted fault

5. This is about Police (a) pushing escaping people back into to Leppings Lane End (b) blocking off escape routes © blocking Ambulance access to injured and dying people (d) blocking the use of advertising hoardings to ferry the injured to ambulances (e) forming a security cordon across the pitch to delay the ferrying of the injured and dying to the amublances kept outside the ground (f) destroying all the video evidence (g) lying to the government, the FA and the public about what happened.

All of you who are on here telling lies about Hillsborough, you are no better than that scum Mackenzie. You should be ashamed to call yourself a football fan.

[TRL]

Who are you accusing of lying db?

[notsobigfatdave]

I have not posted before, but Bigfatdave's post has caused me to do so:

1. Even if 50 fans did not have tickets, there were 10,000 fans with tickets for the Leppings Lane End. Ticketless fans were irrelevant. Not true youve misread my post go back and read it again

2. There could not have been any "rush" at the gate because there was a huge crush of people caused by the fact that few turnstyles were open and they were old and narrow. There was no room to rush. There was an enormous tailback of people filing every available space outside the ground. Not true again Im afraid

3. Bigfatdave could not have given his statement to all the poeple he claims as there was never any gathering of statements from fans. Neither the coroner, the inquiry nor anyone else gathered statements from fans. Not true again Im afraid

4. This is not about compensation. The Police admitted liability almost immeidately. Every one with a claim was paid 20 years ago by the Police who

admitted fault Not true again Im afraid. Compensation was paid but Paltry amounts which has left a bitter taste in the mouths of the vIctims families particularly after the Poice commision compensated traumatised officers 100 fold more.

5. This is about Police (a) pushing escaping people back into to Leppings Lane End (b) blocking off escape routes © blocking Ambulance access to injured and dying people (d) blocking the use of advertising hoardings to ferry the injured to ambulances (e) forming a security cordon across the pitch to delay the ferrying of the injured and dying to the amublances kept outside the ground (f) destroying all the video evidence (g) lying to the government, the FA and the public about what happened. Thats so wide of the Mark its just pure fantasy

All of you who are on here telling lies about Hillsborough, you are no better than that scum Mackenzie. You should be ashamed to call yourself a football fan.

Im not ashamed at all. Ive nothing to be ashamed about. What I and others saw that day will live with us forever. We are good god fearing people with genuine regret of what happened that day...but a 25 year witch hunt isot going to bring those poor people back. You sound as if you have serious anti social issues which have nothing to do with the topic in question or indeed football in general.

[Cambridge Batch Red]

Read up further from my first hand experience... not reading from reports, ticket holding and ticket less fans rushing a the turn styles is what i saw first hand, and i was pulled/stepped out from that crush. There is culpability at every level, fans police and stewards, no one comes out rosey from it and not one single demo-graph should be explicitly blamed for it. Cause and reaction.

First hand experience - ok - you stopped every Liverpool fan and asked them if they had a ticket?

I suspect you are making an assumption there - one that was not held by Lord Taylor.

[Cambridge Batch Red]

I have not posted before, but Bigfatdave's post has caused me to do so:

1. Even if 50 fans did not have tickets, there were 10,000 fans with tickets for the Leppings Lane End. Ticketless fans were irrelevant.

2. There could not have been any "rush" at the gate because there was a huge crush of people caused by the fact that few turnstyles were open and they were old and narrow. There was no room to rush. There was an enormous tailback of people filing every available space outside the ground.

3. Bigfatdave could not have given his statement to all the poeple he claims as there was never any gathering of statements from fans. Neither the coroner, the inquiry nor anyone else gathered statements from fans.

4. This is not about compensation. The Police admitted liability almost immeidately. Every one with a claim was paid 20 years ago by the Police who

admitted fault

5. This is about Police (a) pushing escaping people back into to Leppings Lane End (b) blocking off escape routes © blocking Ambulance access to injured and dying people (d) blocking the use of advertising hoardings to ferry the injured to ambulances (e) forming a security cordon across the pitch to delay the ferrying of the injured and dying to the amublances kept outside the ground (f) destroying all the video evidence (g) lying to the government, the FA and the public about what happened.

All of you who are on here telling lies about Hillsborough, you are no better than that scum Mackenzie. You should be ashamed to call yourself a football fan.

Great post. I admit I wasn't there - I was in the Eastend supporting Bristol City, but this affects us all as football fans. The Truth is beginning to get out. The Sun and the Police have got a lot to answer for. Sheffield Wednesday and Sheffield City council and the FA also.

[TRL]

First hand experience - ok - you stopped every Liverpool fan and asked them if they had a ticket?

I suspect you are making an assumption there - one that was not held by Lord Taylor.

Re read my post and think about what you just wrote here, you may notice I said ticket HOLDING and TICKETLESS, but don't let get in the way of your assumption. You can assume from your comfy position in the ee, I wasn't afforded the luxury of assuming.

[Cambridge Batch Red]

Re read my post and think about what you just wrote here, you may notice I said ticket HOLDING and TICKETLESS, but don't let get in the way of your assumption. You can assume from your comfy position in the ee, I wasn't afforded the luxury of assuming.

I must therefore assume you were able to spot tickets held in pockets with your x-ray eyes.

[TRL]

Nope you can hear people talking and shouting about getting in for free. Smart ass

[Cambridge Batch Red]

Nope you can hear people talking and shouting about getting in for free. Smart ass

Really? how many people said this? One? ten? a hundred?

[TRL]

Funnily enough I wasn't counting... in the off chance a smart ass may ask in 20 odd years time. But to answer your question, enough. How many did you hear or see then Mr know it all?

[Jordan Tansley]

Funnily enough I wasn't counting... in the off chance a smart ass may ask in 20 odd years time. But to answer your question, enough. How many did you hear or see then Mr know it all?

Out of interest, how old were you at the time?

The "rush" would have been irrelevant if the fans hadn't been sent into the central "pens" as far as I can tell from the extracts of the Taylor report I've read. Even if there were "ticketless" fans trying to get in the report seems to suggest the stand could have taken those fans without the crush having to occur if the fans had been put into the correct pens.

Thats the underlying issue. Not to mention the refusal to help and blockades on ambulances.

[TRL]

Out of interest, how old were you at the time?

The "rush" would have been irrelevant if the fans hadn't been sent into the central "pens" as far as I can tell from the extracts of the Taylor report I've read. Even if there were "ticketless" fans trying to get in the report seems to suggest the stand could have taken those fans without the crush having to occur if the fans had been put into the correct pens.

Thats the underlying issue. Not to mention the refusal to help and blockades on ambulances.

14

[Jordan Tansley]

14

Must've been a horrible experience for you and your dad.

[TRL]

Must've been a horrible experience for you and your dad.

No where near as bad as those who got caught inside. I'm just glad my father recognised the danger at the time. Got to really feel for those who were not so lucky.

The problem is this has effected everyone involved, players, fans police and stewards. They are the ones I feel for, those who witnessed what went on inside. I understand the victims family want to know the outcome, but this is why i believe it should not become public knowledge, it should be for only those directly effected. The rest of us don't need to know. After all this is why the petition is being made.

The deaths of these people is not a spectator sport, the general public should not be part to this. Whatever happens now, the hornets nest has been opened, and I cannot see how it will benefit any of those involved.

[notsobigfatdave]

Great post. I admit I wasn't there - I was in the Eastend supporting Bristol City, but this affects us all as football fans. The Truth is beginning to get out. The Sun and the Police have got a lot to answer for. Sheffield Wednesday and Sheffield City council and the FA also.

Thats your and King Carrots opinion and you are entiltled to it of course... all I would say is I and others who witnessed the tradegy can form our own opinion on the cause and apportion the blame based on what we saw and heard without any newspaper report or enquiry factual or not.

The worst thing for me and the others in my party was the witnessing for the first time in reality of how football fans behaved in essentially a mob fuelled by Alcohol. (Now where have we seen this recently.?)

It wasnt until much later that evening when we got back to our hotel and watched the episode unfold on the News that we realised the gravity of the events and the loss of life. The innocent people that day paid the price of the actions of a minority of fans albeit quite a large minority. You can argue that the police should have done that or this or the fans shouldnt have travelled without tickets or the match should have been held elsewhere etc etc etc...it doesnt alter the facts.

I dont think also this thread should be a platform for fellow City fans to start denegrating and throwing insults at each other as some posters have but you are right it does affect all football fans. I hope that the families who waived goodbye to their loved ones that day find some peace in whatever form that may manifest itself.