The Gap In Our Midfield

[CITYRED]

Throughout this window we've been linked with defenders and wingers repetitively! I know our defence needs strengthining, however I think Foster, Fontaine, Wilson and Mcgivern is a decent prospect. Also on the flanks Adomah and Pearson are a respectable force,and they have sufficient back up, in my opinion,with Bolasie and Woolford.

I understand the difficulty finding a creative player with quality, someone like Hartley, who can pull the strings and make chances for our forwards. With only one shot on target against Brighton, a player with the ability to create chances is missing and this is definitley the biggest weakness in the City side at the moment.

I really believe that if we are to see any improvement we need someone in the middle of the park who can keep the ball, spot a decent pass and find players like Pitman who take up some brilliant positions.

Here's hoping Mciness has got someone lined up!

CR

[Taylor10]

Agree, wouldn't say no to a left back and possibly another decent center half, but center mid is surely a huge priority!! Definitely need a creative spark in there that's for sure!

I rate Marv and Cisse, but they can't create and at the moment Kilkenny seems far too inconsistant at present! I am sure Del will address all the areas he feels needs strengthening! Hopefully be a busy few weeks, ins and outs.....

[craigBCFC]

We have alot of sideways passers, there isn't a midfielder with the vision to spread the play. I find everything that goes through midfield is far too slow apart from Albert.

Think we should revert back to 3 central midfielders for the rest of the season, as our good results have come from that formation and get back to passing the football and get the ball moving quickly!

Goals will be a problem until next season until we can find a real playmaker. Just shows how much of a class act Paul Hartley actually was!

[Taylor10]

We have alot of sideways passers, there isn't a midfielder with the vision to spread the play. I find everything that goes through midfield is far too slow apart from Albert.

Think we should revert back to 3 central midfielders for the rest of the season, as our good results have come from that formation and get back to passing the football and get the ball moving quickly!

Goals will be a problem until next season until we can find a real playmaker. Just shows how much of a class act Paul Hartley actually was!

Agree, sadly there aren't many Paul Hartley's around at present! He would thrive under Del! Class act!

[Taylor10]

Sadly Paul Hartley's influence here is massively, massively overrated on here, Ive gone into it before and Im not going to go into it again.

Its 3 seasons ago now, please give it a rest ,Cheers

In your opinion yeah. No difference to people banging on about the likes of Maynard, Pitman LJ etc! Regardless of what you think of Hartley, that type of player is the type we could do with at present!

He was coming to the end of his career when he was here, was hardly going to be playing his best football was he? Was still a useful addition in his time, more than can be said of a lot of the tripe that has played for us!

[Taylor10]

To parphrase what Ive said previously, people have 'stars in their eyes' over Hartley. He was a part of some our worst performances in living memory, including being drubbed by cardiff. He didnt get a massive number of assists or non penalty goals ( using the statto part of me) and wasnt as great as people seem to think. Without him we got promoted, finished 4th and 10th before he came, before rocking up 10th again, with him here

But why let that that get that in the way of anything?

That's like people on here saying LJ was the catalyst in our play off season! Maybe he wasn't as great as people make out, but you can't claim poor performances were his fault! Even so like I said, that type of player is the kind we are missing! Not necessarily Hartley himself but we need a creater, apart from Albert who is very direct we pretty much have no creative players!

[Frank Reynolds]

To parphrase what Ive said previously, people have 'stars in their eyes' over Hartley. He was a part of some our worst performances in living memory, including being drubbed by cardiff. He didnt get a massive number of assists or non penalty goals ( using the statto part of me) and wasnt as great as people seem to think. Without him we got promoted, finished 4th and 10th before he came, before rocking up 10th again, with him here

But why let that that get that in the way of anything?

Show me the stats in terms of games Hartley played, and Maynard scored for that season...

[Rob k]

Agree, wouldn't say no to a left back and possibly another decent center half, but center mid is surely a huge priority!! Definitely need a creative spark in there that's for sure!

I rate Marv and Cisse, but they can't create

and at the moment Kilkenny seems far too inconsistant at present! I am sure Del will address all the areas he feels needs strengthening! Hopefully be a busy few weeks, ins and outs.....

For Kilkenny to be effective we need to play both Marv and Cisse in a 5 man midfield, that's when he looks at his best. Put him in anything other than that and he looks poor.

[chipdawg]

All stats from Espn

Paul Hartley- 38 Games 5 Goals 6 Assists

Nicky Maynard-45 Games 21 Goals 5 Assists

Games where Nicky scored and Paul Hartley wasnt on the pitch

vs Brentford- 1

vs Blackpool-1

vs Barnsley -1

vs Sheffield Wednesday -1 ( Goal Scored 59th Min, Hartley Subbed on 46)

vs Plymouth- 2

vs Swansea-1 (Goal Scored 84th Min, Hartley Subbed on 79)

Vs Derby-1 (Goal Scored on 79th Min Hartley Subbed on 70)

Total Goals when Hartley not on pitch= 8/21

38% of Nicky's Goals were scored when Hartley wasn't on the pitch

Maynard also had runs of 7 Games without a Goal and 10 Games without a goal

Hartley as mentioned above only had 6 Assists all season, so even if all those assists were directly for Maynard, and I cant tell from the available stats, it still would leave another 7 goals unaccounted for

8 Goals with no Hartley involvement (inc 1 Penalty)

6 Assists total for Hartley all season ( I will assume, they were all for Maynard)

7 Goals from other players assists

So 15/21 goals scored that season werent from the Paul Hartley directly, according to stats only, which is about 71% of all of Maynards Goals.. I cant say or cant remember, if he started moves or whatever and those stats dont exist afaik. but on a base level, it appears he wasnt as important as everyone thinks he was in terms of Maynard's goals for that season/

Other players Assists for the season for comparison

Danny Haynes had 5

JCR-3

Saborio-2

Orr-2

Skuse- 2

Clarkson-2

McAllister-2

Carey -2

Fontaine- 2

Elliott-2

Iwelumo-1

Williams-1

(Maynard- 5)

Hope that helps

I agree with Ralph in so much as Hartley wasn't quite the player he was made out to be on here. He was obviously talented, but on the wain when he came to us and I don't think he had the legs for a full championship season. Let's also not forget that as a young man he'd failed with Millwall on League 1 so "a young Paul Hartley" isn't a defacto answer to our problems

However, all those stats appear to prove is that we were a more creative team with Hartley on the pitch. Anyone fancy working out goals conceded with PH on the pitch?

[The Bard]

All stats from Espn

Paul Hartley- 38 Games 5 Goals 6 Assists

Nicky Maynard-45 Games 21 Goals 5 Assists

Games where Nicky scored and Paul Hartley wasnt on the pitch

vs Brentford- 1

vs Blackpool-1

vs Barnsley -1

vs Sheffield Wednesday -1 ( Goal Scored 59th Min, Hartley Subbed on 46)

vs Plymouth- 2

vs Swansea-1 (Goal Scored 84th Min, Hartley Subbed on 79)

Vs Derby-1 (Goal Scored on 79th Min Hartley Subbed on 70)

Total Goals when Hartley not on pitch= 8/21

38% of Nicky's Goals were scored when Hartley wasn't on the pitch

Maynard also had runs of 7 Games without a Goal and 10 Games without a goal

Hartley as mentioned above only had 6 Assists all season, so even if all those assists were directly for Maynard, and I cant tell from the available stats, it still would leave another 7 goals unaccounted for

8 Goals with no Hartley involvement (inc 1 Penalty)

6 Assists total for Hartley all season ( I will assume, they were all for Maynard)

7 Goals from other players assists

So 15/21 goals scored that season werent from the Paul Hartley directly, according to stats only, which is about 71% of all of Maynards Goals.. I cant say or cant remember, if he started moves or whatever and those stats dont exist afaik. but on a base level, it appears he wasnt as important as everyone thinks he was in terms of Maynard's goals for that season/

Other players Assists for the season for comparison

Danny Haynes had 5

JCR-3

Saborio-2

Orr-2

Skuse- 2

Clarkson-2

McAllister-2

Carey -2

Fontaine- 2

Elliott-2

Iwelumo-1

Williams-1

(Maynard- 5)

Hope that helps

[/quote

Sometimes you can get lost looking at statistics. The point about Hartley was that he not only had a few assists but that he was able to dictate the game on occasions and added a sense of purpose to our play and some leadership. That is what rarely happens now. The midfield is dysfunctional.

[CotswoldRed]

With 2 shots at goal in 2 games our shots to goal ratio will need to be world class for us to survive this year.

[cider_dog]

Throughout this window we've been linked with defenders and wingers repetitively! I know our defence needs strengthining, however I think Foster, Fontaine, Wilson and Mcgivern is a decent prospect. Also on the flanks Adomah and Pearson are a respectable force,and they have sufficient back up, in my opinion,with Bolasie and Woolford.

I understand the difficulty finding a creative player with quality, someone like Hartley, who can pull the strings and make chances for our forwards. With only one shot on target against Brighton, a player with the ability to create chances is missing and this is definitley the biggest weakness in the City side at the moment.

I really believe that if we are to see any improvement we need someone in the middle of the park who can keep the ball, spot a decent pass and find players like Pitman who take up some brilliant positions.

Here's hoping Mciness has got someone lined up!

CR

I agree, we do need a creative forward thinking midfielder, after Kilkenny's performance at home against Southampton I thought we had turned the corner (he was a real play-maker) but he has regressed and now reverts to shorter, sideways passing from deeper positions. The problem is that these types of players are hard to find, especially in the January transfer window. The only point I can't agree with is that Woolford is a sufficient back-up option, sorry to say this but he will become a liability and lose us points if DM continues with him. Bolasie is a good option and offers more IMO.

[Spud55]

What our midfield needs more than anything is balance, and Bolaise is the only player who can provide that for us, as it stands we have only albert as an outlet in the midfield, Woolford is just garbage and Pearson doesn't bring the balance as he likes to wonder inside all the time, a decent player but not a left winger by any stretch.

Also depends how we want to play, so we want to try to dominate posession and dictate games like Swansea do so play a 4-3-3 with a midfield 3 of Cisse, Pearson and Kilkenny, with Albert and Bolaise as the right and left forwards alongside Pitman or Wood, that midfield 3 shold be more than capable of popping the ball around and retaining posession, as they are the three central midfielders we have who actually make themselfs available for a pass almost all the time. With that midfield and forward line it should provide the balance on both sides and also allow the ball to be retained, which lets face it if you can dominate possession 60%+ you are likely to even if not win games at least not loose as if youve got the ball for the majority of the time then the opposition can't score.

You could also go for the classic Villa approach, with a 4-4-2 with a hard working but not too special central midfield, and concentrate almost entirely on attacking down the wings, have Elliot and Cisse in the middle to get the ball back and Albert and Bolaise on the wings, so Elliot and Cisse get the ball and immediately look for either albert or bolaise, who get down the wings, drive for the byline and cross for Wood and Pitman up front, this is not a particularly pretty way of playing, but it will get goals as if you are lobbing in a significant number of crosses, you are going to get goals.

There are many ways we can play, but nearly all of them are innefective without a balance in the midfield, which only Bolaise IMO provides, we are so predictable as we go only down the right with albert making it very easy to defend against him, the fact that with this in mind of just how well Albert has done shows for me just how bloody good he is, with an attacking threat on the left (which brighton clearly felt as they were happy to go 1-on-1 against Woolford, yet as soon as Bolaise came on they suddenly went 3-on-1) then Albert can be more effective, as can the rest of our midfield and forwards as there will be space to exploit.

I'd personally love to see un playing 4-3-3 with Adomah, Pitman and Bolaise as the forward 3, i think in time that could be a devestating frontline, akin to Sinclair, Graham and Dyer have been for swansea.

[Frank Reynolds]

Again going from Espn

Goals Conceded when Hartley was on the Pitch in the league

3 vs Cardiff

1 vs Middlesbrough

1 vs Coventry

1 vs Derby

1 vs Peterborough

1 vs Plymouth

1 vs Sheffield Wednesday

1 vs Nottingham Forest

4 vs West Brom

3 vs Sheffield United

1 vs Doncaster

1 vs Reading

2 vs QPR

2 vs Watford

1 vs Preston

6 vs Cardiff

1 vs Coventry

2 vs Sheffield United

2 vs Reading

2 vs Newcastle

3 vs Barnsley

1 vs Nottingham Forest

3 vs S****horpe

1 vs Blackpool

Total conceded whilst Hartley Was Playing-45

Total conceded for for the Team- 61

74% of our goals that season conceded whilst Hartley was on the pitch

Et Voila

So you think that,. despite the fact that you just proved that we were a more creative team with Paul Hartley in it that you're right?!

Deary me.

I'd now be interested to see the back four for those games. Bearing in mind that Dean Gerken was in goal. Since Hartley was our creative outlet, not our more defence minded central midfielder that seems only fair.

[glynriley]

So you think that,. despite the fact that you just proved that we were a more creative team with Paul Hartley in it that you're right?!

Deary me.

I'd now be interested to see the back four for those games. Bearing in mind that Dean Gerken was in goal. Since Hartley was our creative outlet, not our more defence minded central midfielder that seems only fair.

I wouldn't get involved Dan. RMLF , by his own admission , does not go to games. Everything is based on internet stats. Those that saw Hartley play for us know how much we could do with a player of his quality right now.

[notsobigfatdave]

You have to consider the Midfeilders performance is governed to a great extent by the quality of his defenders breaking up play, retaining the ball and then being able to pass it effectively through the Midfield without constantly lumping it forward.... we only have one Defender currently in the first team squad who can actually pass the ball consistantly more than 10 yards without it going astray, perhaps two now that Foster has Joined , but this remains to be seen.

I think Kilkenny, Cisse and Elliot could be very effective in the City Midfeild given the service.

I Also dont think we need to add to the squad at all.. we have a crop of players in a squad as good as any apart from perhaps Wham.... however they are not playing with any sort of confidence at the moment and agaisnt Crawley, and Brighton I saw that they didnt really have a tactical game plan...it was almost everyone for himself. This is the biggest problem that the Manager has to sort out in the short term not worrying about repalcing players or bolstering the squad in my opinion...

I look down the squad list of those not currently under consideration and I would put every thing I own on a wager that I could manage a team from them capabale of finishing in the middle of the table.

[Taylor10]

For Kilkenny to be effective we need to play both Marv and Cisse in a 5 man midfield, that's when he looks at his best. Put him in anything other than that and he looks poor.

I agree with you there, but even with Marv and Cisse, Kilkenny has at times been poor. We can't just rely on him and we definitely need another player like him if possible

[Frank Reynolds]

For the back 4 go and look at the Espn site, its got loads of different things to look at or go through the match reports on the BCFC site.

Proved in the team that we were more creative?

2007- Goals scored 54 Goals Conceded 53

2008-9 Goals scored 54 Goals Conceded 54

2009-10 Goals scored 56 Goals Conceded 65 - Season Hartley played

2010-11 Goals scored 62 Goals Conceded 65

Yep, them two goals scored over the season, and a much worse conceded certainly make me think, Hartley was the 'ubergod' many claim in terms of creativity and us doing much better with him in the team?

So how much more creative were we with him in the team?

Ive never said Hartley wasnt a good player, he just wasnt as good and all encompassing as people seem to think he was in the grand scheme of things, but that clearly falls on deaf ears because this place likes to create mythologies about players that are based on half truths or not true at all.

See Maynard for example, in that season he scored 21 goals, as mentioned in my original post when asked, he had spells of 10 games and 7 games in a row without scoring. Something which has occurred this season ( 10 and 6, respectively), but apparently that now means he has lost his touch in front of goal and so forth and so on ( That's not even going into the effort and stuff because Ive discussed that elsewhere)

PS I got the stats conceded wrong in my original post, I was tired, I will go and alter it just for you

Glyn, Id love to be able to attend millions and millions of games, but being disabled and living hundreds of miles away, makes it impossible. But you know, why let that get in the way of anything.

And no everything is not based on internet stats, where I can I attend games, see the highlights and watch the matches on the tv, but that some how makes a lesser fan or a supporter, because Im not there all the time spunking hundreds and thousands of pounds I dont have to watch us play. Awesome discussion!

Thanks, Ants Thants.

But you're not proving anything other than our arguments with your stats. You can't go on about seasons before and after, and nobody has claimed that Hartley is an 'ubergod' merely that we were a more creative team, and that we could do with someone of his ilk.

And if Maynard has such big gaps, perhaps the fact that Hartley didn't set more up is down to him? Or perhaps, you could speculate and add your skewed view of the statistics forever but it doesn't change the fact that Maynard scored more goals in Hartley's season than he has before or since. Or the fact that many of us rated Hartley and wish that we had got him 5 years earlier.

[Greedo]

I like Paul Hartley.

[bucksred]

For Kilkenny to be effective we need to play both Marv and Cisse in a 5 man midfield, that's when he looks at his best. Put him in anything other than that and he looks poor.

So true is the above.....

[chipdawg]

So you think that,. despite the fact that you just proved that we were a more creative team with Paul Hartley in it that you're right?!

Deary me.

I'd now be interested to see the back four for those games. Bearing in mind that Dean Gerken was in goal. Since Hartley was our creative outlet, not our more defence minded central midfielder that seems only fair.

No, what's it's possibly demonstrating is that we were defensively weaker when Hartley played, while not necessarily being a more creative unit

I don't think anyone is stating that Hartley wasn't a good player; he had tremendous passing ability and vision. But as an all round package he wasn't as good as people remember when donning their Rose tinted glasses. If he was he wouldn't have been playing for us!!!

[redfieldred]

I rated Hartley, but many on 606 didn't and were very vocal with phrases such as - 'can't tackle back' and 'too slow'. Both had an element of truth - but thats not really why he was on the pitch. As far as creating chances goes his low assist stats would be down to the fact that he often hit the winger very effectively and the winger would then get the assist. I remember cardiff 0-6 and that was the entire team- especially the defence and especially Carey had a shocker. So cant really say that was down to him.

Kilkenny has potential but needs to play in the 'hole' to be really effective and that means a 5 man midfield.

[Chivs]

I wouldn't get involved Dan. RMLF , by his own admission , does not go to games. Everything is based on internet stats. Those that saw Hartley play for us know how much we could do with a player of his quality right now.

I saw him play for us and he was the absolute definition of a "luxury" player. He could pick a pass and take a decent free-kick, even score from them (yes, kids, this is allowed). But he was useless at any tracking back or even tackling a player he was stood next to. And he was dead on his feet after 60mins.

Having said that, I'd like to see a midfield with Cisse and Hartley in it.

[bcfcbs20]

I saw him play for us and he was the absolute definition of a "luxury" player. He could pick a pass and take a decent free-kick, even score from them (yes, kids, this is allowed). But he was useless at any tracking back or even tackling a player he was stood next to. And he was dead on his feet after 60mins.

Having said that, I'd like to see a midfield with Cisse and Hartley in it.

I cant remember who it was against but Hartley's freekick floated straight onto carey's head who took the goal well oh and the ball played to Maynard against Boro in the 90th minute que w***** w****** what's the score to Adam Johnson aaaaahhhhhh good times.

[glynriley]

I cant remember who it was against but Hartley's freekick floated straight onto carey's head who took the goal well oh and the ball played to Maynard against Boro in the 90th minute que w***** w****** what's the score to Adam Johnson aaaaahhhhhh good times.

I think that was against Preston. Hartley with a quick freekick (remember those) !

[LoyalRed]

Hartley? Come on!!! He was over the hill before he arrived. Hardly made a difference to midtable obscurity.

[redcherryberry]

For Kilkenny to be effective we need to play both Marv and Cisse in a 5 man midfield, that's when he looks at his best. Put him in anything other than that and he looks poor.

I agree.

And he got to play well every game when playing that AMC role in a 5 midfield otherwise he becomes an expensive luxury we cannot afford.

[Taylor10]

I agree.

And he got to play well every game when playing that AMC role in a 5 midfield otherwise he becomes an expensive luxury we cannot afford.

Agree with this mate, if he's not pulling the strings and making us tick he doesn't offer anything else.

[Rob k]

I agree.

And he got to play well every game when playing that AMC role in a 5 midfield otherwise he becomes an expensive luxury we cannot afford.

Yep he's another one who comes here and does not quite meet expectations, IMO only slightly more effective than LJ

[Taylor10]

Yep he's another one who comes here and does not quite meet expectations, IMO only slightly more effective than LJ

Comfortably better than LJ, but still extremely inconsistent. I could handle him being a bit lightweight if he had a bit of fight and work rare to his game. Kilkenny is good for us when we are on top or dominating games, so he can dictate play, but when it's backs to the wall time and we are being outplayed he hasn't been very effective at all for us.