'sleeping Giants'?

[The Jock]

I've heard many people say in the past, that we are a sleeping giant club. I've spoken to a few away fans over the years along with general football fans and they have said with the city of our size and the big catchment area, we should be in the top division with decent past history. However, we are not a big club and only had a good spell in the 70s. Just curious to know if any of you had ideas to why we haven't been more successful? Look at cities like Sheffield, Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, Liverpool, Norwich, Coventry and Leicester. All of which are roughly the same size as this city and just as passionate, but they have all been in the premier league and have a greater history than us.

Maybe this is a question for the old ones, as they have seen it all. Why are we not up there with the rest of them with past glories and decent level of football?

I await the on slaught again here for this.I am going to say it any how.Give me a second to put the chip on my shoulder in the deep frier.City never had enough Scotsman,look at Leeds and Forest and Liverpool.Almost every club ever to win anything in England had plenty off Scots on the field or off the field coaching.

[Scoliver92]

Just checked out Newcastles attendances before Keegan and every one of their average was over 21,000 except 1991 when they averaged 16,834

That's pretty good figures in my eyes.

Source: http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm

Remember newcastle are a one club city though, whereas we have 2 clubs

[CotswoldRed]

This isn't a Rugby city, it's a Football City. But Up North they don't have much to do, Bristol however is an affluent City, people have character and ambition...whereas up there they don't.

Do some of them fancy being our local politicians? Just a thought.

[Murraysrightplum]

This isn't a Rugby city, it's a Football City. But Up North they don't have much to do, Bristol however is an affluent City, people have character and ambition...whereas up there they don't.

Wow, really?

Even if that was true (which it isn't), you are saying there are things to do in Bristol that mean people don't want to play football? What are they then?

The truth is that most (obviously not all) footballers come from inner city council estates. Bristol (like any other big city) has many of them and some proper rough ones at that. So there is no reason why there shouldn't be enough kids playing football in the street night and day to be good enough to become professionals. They are clearly just not brought on by a club in the area. In fact my brother is a PE teacher at a very rough inner city school in bristol and most of his kids get signed up by Arsenal/Chelsea/Spurs training camps at 11-12, which means they can't play for anyone local or even the school. Why the hell would they want to play for City?

It's catch 22, until the club have some success then the good youngsters will go over to the bigger clubs/academies and our academy gets the leftovers so we need to improve recruiting or do it earlier and get the kids signed up as early as possible and then actually develop them...

[glynriley]

I await the on slaught again here for this.I am going to say it any how.Give me a second to put the chip on my shoulder in the deep frier.City never had enough Scotsman,look at Leeds and Forest and Liverpool.Almost every club ever to win anything in England had plenty off Scots on the field or off the field coaching.

Not so Mr Jock. 4 of the top 10 appearance makers in City's history are Scottish. We've always had a fair sprinkling since the early 70's.

[Puckle_red]

Wow, really?

Although another standard Bristolian charactetristic; we generally speaking don't think a lot of ourselves and our surroundings.

Either way, we're going off topic, personally it makes or breaks my weekend but for a mild majority around here it's just a game, whereas up north and other places, it's EVERYTHING it is their life. I just personally think it doesn't mean enough to enough people.

[Kingswood Robin]

I saw us at Newcastle in the early 90's, the crowd was about 11,000. We drew 0-0.

11,000 !!

The reason our crowds are so poor is our poor history. I often quote this Newcastle example. Get some sustained success on the field and the crowds will come.

Why haven't we been successful? I think you'd have to have been born in the Victorian age to answer that one. During our early years in the league we were very successful. Easily the biggest club south of Birmingham (nothing of note in London at that time). We lost to Man U in the cup final in 1909 and were arguably a bigger club. What caused a successful team to be relegated from the old Div 1 in 1911, never to return until 1976? Oh what might have been.

[Murraysrightplum]

Although another standard Bristolian charactetristic; we generally speaking don't think a lot of ourselves and our surroundings.

Either way, we're going off topic, personally it makes or breaks my weekend but for a mild majority around here it's just a game, whereas up north and other places, it's EVERYTHING it is their life. I just personally think it doesn't mean enough to enough people.

That may be true but how does that show "character and ambition"? Surely it shows the opposite? I actually live in Manchester and there is loads more to do up here than in Bristol but people still want to watch/play football. Of course it helps if there are 2 world class clubs in the City...

[Puckle_red]

That may be true but how does that show "character and ambition"? Surely it shows the opposite? I actually live in Manchester and there is loads more to do up here than in Bristol but people still want to watch/play football. Of course it helps if there are 2 world class clubs in the City...

Right there. However, my point is, BCFC is detail to most City fans weekend as they have other interests and things to do. I mean ambition personally such as travel, an education, work, families rather than 'lets spend our time and money watching an average football team and tie us down and stop us doing all the things we want to do.

I refer again back to Stoke, we would be similar in size if we were in a similar position. The big boys have a massive history, but our time in the 70's sometimes referred to as 'the team with the following' was too short when Leicester for example sing 'you've never won **** all' they're right!

[Murraysrightplum]

Right there. However, my point is, BCFC is detail to most City fans weekend as they have other interests and things to do. I mean ambition personally such as travel, an education, work, families rather than 'lets spend our time and money watching an average football team and tie us down and stop us doing all the things we want to do.

I refer again back to Stoke, we would be similar in size if we were in a similar position. The big boys have a massive history, but our time in the 70's sometimes referred to as 'the team with the following' was too short when Leicester for example sing 'you've never won **** all' they're right!

I think you may have the rose tints on there mate, I accept that areas around Bristol are affluent and ditto Clifton, but there are large numbers of big council estates in Bristol and some of the worst schools in the country, so there are plenty who have "nothing better to do". Manchester has it's rough areas (as all big cities) but also some really nice areas. The surrounding areas around Cheshire is rediculously posh and expensive so quite similar to Bristol in a way. The only real difference is having a successful club(s).

To put it another way, walk around Bristol city centre (as I did a couple of weeks ago) and you will see as many working class people "with nothing better to do" as you do in Manchester (as I did yesterday)...

[redology]

In the last 30 years we have not held on to our better players and youth development has not been able to counter that. If at any point we had the combination of a strong vision and squad of players to deliver we would have been up there. For a long while we were in the hangover of what happend in 1982 and now it's a struggle with the money that's involved. We have a chance if we keep on at it.... Just need to stay up and kick on!

You redz!

[Puckle_red]

I think you may have the rose tints on there mate, I accept that areas around Bristol are affluent and ditto Clifton, but there are large numbers of big council estates in Bristol and some of the worst schools in the country, so there are plenty who have "nothing better to do". Manchester has it's rough areas (as all big cities) but also some really nice areas. The surrounding areas around Cheshire is rediculously posh and expensive so quite similar to Bristol in a way. The only real difference is having a successful club(s).

To put it another way, walk around Bristol city centre (as I did a couple of weeks ago) and you will see as many working class people "with nothing better to do" as you do in Manchester (as I did yesterday)...

You're missing my point, I understand that up north some people are even allowed an education these days, but again, it's character, we're laid back and demotivated vaguely speaking, we'll do what we want to do when we want to do it.

In 30 years time who's to say Brentford aren't the 5 times Champions of Europe and Man City don't exist anymore because their fabulous owner decided to up sticks? Brentford getting 45000 every home game due to winning things. The fact is we haven't won things and when we were close, we (75% of the fans) got rid of the manager who had the best chance of getting us there!

[sodburyred]

On the newcastle comparisons...As i always say to my mates, think what could of been if Rovers wernt around. If you look at our league 1 averages and then add them we'd be matching Newcastles. We'd easily be getting over 20,000 in this league.

[grove park city]

The reason our crowds are so poor is our poor history. I often quote this Newcastle example. Get some sustained success on the field and the crowds will come.

Why haven't we been successful? I think you'd have to have been born in the Victorian age to answer that one. During our early years in the league we were very successful. Easily the biggest club south of Birmingham (nothing of note in London at that time). We lost to Man U in the cup final in 1909 and were arguably a bigger club. What caused a successful team to be relegated from the old Div 1 in 1911, never to return until 1976? Oh what might have been.

Always bugged me the fact we were nowhere for so many years until Alan Dicks took charge ( 1932 to 1954 ) 3rd Division..Newcastle Utd ( 1934 to 1947 ) 2nd Division--1898 to 1933 unbroken 1st Division :: 6 Fa cup wins, 7 Fa cup runners-up : 4 Div 1 league Championships,,,We have always screwed up never grabbing the chance losing out in all play-off finals letting Stoke City over take us for Prem promotion crashing out year after year in 1st round cup matches ...This season is a classic example no guts from the players and silence from the board same old City settle for the cosy backwaters don't rock the boat..

[Red-Robbo]

To reiterate my point and support those making similar, it really is all about our uninspiring history - and very little else.

To rebuff:

1: Rugby town. No-one I know is into rugby. But I do know loads of people who live where I do - 20 miles away from Bristol - who follow London or Northern clubs. Rugby has a smallish fanbase, but even excepting we have had some top clubs on our doorstep, it doesn't stop 'rugby town' Leicester getting more fans or places up North where they have that Eddie Wareing stuff.

2: Affluence. If that were the case, London clubs would be f---ed. I don't think it's a factor to be honest. Nowadays you have to be fairly affluent to afford a season ticket in the first place!

3: Downs League. Similar distractions in every city.

4: The Gas. We aren't the only city to have two clubs and it should be noted that both Sheffield clubs get higher crowds - and they have other clubs right on their doorsteps!

The fact is, if City had the history and past successes of - say - Ipswich, we'd not even be in Ashton Gate as we'd have had to move some time back to accommodate our 25K average crowds.

A Premier Leaguel City would attract the floating, maybe non-Bristol born punter and the glory hunting kids, some of whom would then stay for life on the path of righteousness.

The potential is there, but at a time when lots of existing ST holders are thinking of not renewing, our fanbase is eroding not increasing.

[NOTR]

History,or lack of it the main reason.what with that and the old "I knew City would **** it up again" I hear time and time again,people expect us to fail and we seldom prove them wrong.I even know City fans who have season tickets,who haven't been to Wembley or the Millenium becuase they know we are likely to **** it up.

[Lew-T]

To reiterate my point and support those making similar, it really is all about our uninspiring history - and very little else.

To rebuff:

1: Rugby town. No-one I know is into rugby. But I do know loads of people who live where I do - 20 miles away from Bristol - who follow London or Northern clubs. Rugby has a smallish fanbase, but even excepting we have had some top clubs on our doorstep, it doesn't stop 'rugby town' Leicester getting more fans or places up North where they have that Eddie Wareing stuff.

2: Affluence. If that were the case, London clubs would be f---ed. I don't think it's a factor to be honest. Nowadays you have to be fairly affluent to afford a season ticket in the first place!

3: Downs League. Similar distractions in every city.

4: The Gas. We aren't the only city to have two clubs and it should be noted that both Sheffield clubs get higher crowds - and they have other clubs right on their doorsteps!

The fact is, if City had the history and past successes of - say - Ipswich, we'd not even be in Ashton Gate as we'd have had to move some time back to accommodate our 25K average crowds.

A Premier Leaguel City would attract the floating, maybe non-Bristol born punter and the glory hunting kids, some of whom would then stay for life on the path of righteousness.

The potential is there, but at a time when lots of existing ST holders are thinking of not renewing, our fanbase is eroding not increasing.

IF we ever did reach the premier league, and stayed there for about 4-5 seasons with good cup runs, along with the new stadium. How big would the crowds be? And if we were relegated back to the championship, would we still have the big crowds? I hope so, but if we didn't go straight back up, I fear that those new generation of fans would lose interest.

[Red-Robbo]

IF we ever did reach the premier league, and stayed there for about 4-5 seasons with good cup runs, along with the new stadium. How big would the crowds be? And if we were relegated back to the championship, would we still have the big crowds? I hope so, but if we didn't go straight back up, I fear that those new generation of fans would lose interest.

Personally I think PL crowds in a city this size would be 25-30K (depending on the opposition we were playing) but to keep it at anything like that level we'd have to have quite a decent run in the top flight and maybe some cup success.

Getting a decent fanbase built up takes decades and decades. If we ever went up and did a Hull, crowds would barely be higher than they are now.

[The Gasbuster]

Personally I think PL crowds in a city this size would be 25-30K (depending on the opposition we were playing) but to keep it at anything like that level we'd have to have quite a decent run in the top flight and maybe some cup success.

Getting a decent fanbase built up takes decades and decades. If we ever went up and did a Hull, crowds would barely be higher than they are now.

I don't see why we could not achieve those levels either. Stoke have a prouder history than us, but I see them as a similar sized club to ourselves. They were getting 12k/13k/14k before promotion to the Prem. Just look at them now.

[Pewsham]

I don't see why we could not achieve those levels either. Stoke have a prouder history than us, but I see them as a similar sized club to ourselves. They were getting 12k/13k/14k before promotion to the Prem. Just look at them now.

Yes Stoke do have a prouder history, but I think our parallel lies down the M4 (Reading)

[Mr Popodopolous]

Always wondered about this. Potential is there no doubt- take even Bolton under Big Sam as an example, a city the size of Bolton surrounded by Everton, Liverpool, Man Utd, Man City- that is 4 major clubs, all potential draw for fans. Yet top 8 in PL 4 years on the spin even coming 5th one year, European runs, signing players of the calibre of Okocha, Anelka, Djorkaeff to name a few- if they could do that...Stoke too, as others have said.

As to why we've underachieved, surely mismanagement at many levels- helle evn when we did achieve some success in the mid to late 70s, we had the 3rd highest wagebill in the country from what I read- could even argue a slight underachievement there in real terms.

Bristol and indeed West Country sport in general, in real terms (except rugby) is pisspoor and has been quite often down the years I'd say. Someone mentioned the example of Bristol being too laid back etc, yeah maybe I mean there was once a famous quote about Bristol being the graveyard of ambition.- because it's not a bad place to live maybe. Don't agree about Northerners lacking ambition, drive etc though, not at all.

[The Jock]

Not so Mr Jock. 4 of the top 10 appearance makers in City's history are Scottish. We've always had a fair sprinkling since the early 70's.

Leeds had a heavy dose off Scots though.Something like 13 players on there books at one time when they were good.

[NOTR]

People keep saying that that were a rugby City,I don't know one person that goes to the rugby and apart from the odd bristol shirt all I see is football shirts,trouble being most are the usual suspects,and now of course you can add man shitty to the list I mean man shitty WTF.

[Frome Valley]

Sides from the West Country and Wales historically have played virtually all their football below the top level and win next to nothing. They also historically do not get gates above average or poor. The two are linked.

Cardiff and Swansea both had average gates below City in recent memory!

[Never to the dark side]

In my teenage years

in a Galaxy far far away

my football manager said Bristol City were a sleeping giant

well he's been fast asleep since or he needs a good kicking to wake him up

[CardiffBlackLabel]

My two pence worth:

Bristol is a big city, but it's not enormous, and there isn't a huge catchment area nearby that ties directly to the city. You don't travel far north, east, south or west before culturally (and sport wise) you are out of Bristol's manor. Being big (but not huge) means it can't so easily get away with having two clubs. People may not watch City and Rovers week in, week out, but it seems to me that the family traditions are there, and a third/half of your city isn't tied to another club (unlike say Leeds, Newcastle, Cardiff etc)

Bristol (and Cardiff, Swansea etc) got the football bug relatively late. We have always been playing catch up. Success breeds success, and Bristol City have never been a club with enormous success-that makes future success more difficult. Look at the first ever football league season http://en.wikipedia....Football_League 7 of the 12 are top flight clubs nearly 130 years later.

Bristol strikes me as a divided city; by class, by education etc. Has there been a desire amongst wealthy Bristolians to see a successful city club? Is it seen as a source of civic pride the way clubs are in other cities? It doesn't strike me as a united city that would rally around the prospect of a premier league team

Finally, no one has a divine right to success. If you halve the population of Bristol (to take account of Rovers) you'll probably find that the championship, with a few years in the top flight along the way is more or less right.

[Pewsham]

My two pence worth:

Bristol is a big city, but it's not enormous, and there isn't a huge catchment area nearby that ties directly to the city. You don't travel far north, east, south or west before culturally (and sport wise) you are out of Bristol's manor. Being big (but not huge) means it can't so easily get away with having two clubs. People may not watch City and Rovers week in, week out, but it seems to me that the family traditions are there, and a third/half of your city isn't tied to another club (unlike say Leeds, Newcastle, Cardiff etc)

Bristol (and Cardiff, Swansea etc) got the football bug relatively late. We have always been playing catch up. Success breeds success, and Bristol City have never been a club with enormous success-that makes future success more difficult. Look at the first ever football league season http://en.wikipedia....Football_League 7 of the 12 are top flight clubs nearly 130 years later.

Bristol strikes me as a divided city; by class, by education etc. Has there been a desire amongst wealthy Bristolians to see a successful city club? Is it seen as a source of civic pride the way clubs are in other cities? It doesn't strike me as a united city that would rally around the prospect of a premier league team

Finally, no one has a divine right to success. If you halve the population of Bristol (to take account of Rovers) you'll probably find that the championship, with a few years in the top flight along the way is more or less right.

+1

[Hope&Glory]

Just about any side in the championship can get to the prem as long as they have the key ingredients of a good manager and a solid spine to the team . Look at blackpool and swansea ! Nothing to do with being "hotbeds" of football with massive support . What we have lacked is a quality scouting network for years. The sheer number of "local " lads who have been snapped up by Southampton for example is staggering.

[Red-Robbo]

My two pence worth:

Bristol is a big city, but it's not enormous, and there isn't a huge catchment area nearby that ties directly to the city. You don't travel far north, east, south or west before culturally (and sport wise) you are out of Bristol's manor. Being big (but not huge) means it can't so easily get away with having two clubs. People may not watch City and Rovers week in, week out, but it seems to me that the family traditions are there, and a third/half of your city isn't tied to another club (unlike say Leeds, Newcastle, Cardiff etc)

Bristol (and Cardiff, Swansea etc) got the football bug relatively late. We have always been playing catch up. Success breeds success, and Bristol City have never been a club with enormous success-that makes future success more difficult. Look at the first ever football league season http://en.wikipedia....Football_League 7 of the 12 are top flight clubs nearly 130 years later.

Bristol strikes me as a divided city; by class, by education etc. Has there been a desire amongst wealthy Bristolians to see a successful city club? Is it seen as a source of civic pride the way clubs are in other cities? It doesn't strike me as a united city that would rally around the prospect of a premier league team

Finally, no one has a divine right to success. If you halve the population of Bristol (to take account of Rovers) you'll probably find that the championship, with a few years in the top flight along the way is more or less right.

As usual, it's a well reasoned argument CBL (apart from the Rovers bit, I reckon that Bristol splits 60/40 to city, just on the basis, as you say, of success) but I think you're a bit negative in your geographical limitations theory.

My dad worked for the club in a very senior position during the "glory years" of the 70s and I can for sure say we'd started to attract support as far afield as North Devon, Herefordshire and North Hampshire. Anywhere where folk spoke with a bit of West Country burr, we were picking up fans who saw us as 'their' team against the glamour clubs of Forest, Leeds and Liverpool etc. There was also a terrific fanbase from overseas. I collected stamps as a young 'un and the Polish section of my album was crammed full due to the letters from there that my old man brought home for me.

Of course, 30 years of hurt, saw a most of those fans melt away, but the potential (whether achievable or not is another argument) is still there. Unlike Cardiff, where you really have a struggle to turn much of the expanded metropolitan area away from rugby, it really is only lack of success that holds us back.