Edgar Davids

[LondonBristolian]

Former Dutch star Edgar Davids is against a plan to force Premier League clubs to interview minority groups for vacant coaching jobs.

There are only three black managers in charge of the 20 Premier and 72 Football League clubs and with racism continuing to cast a cloud over English football – there is a push to boost that number.

However it appears not everyone is in support of the move.

Now coach at English fourth-tier side Barnet, Davids insists it's the coaches' ability that should rule whether they get a job.

"I don't like to talk about racism immediately. Because I think it's very easy to say 'Hey, listen, that's unfair because it's racism," Davids said.

"I First, you have to look at yourself, do I qualify? Do I have the ambition? That is the first thing you have to look at. And then you have to say - is it racism or not? Because you have to be really careful to say or accuse someone of racism.

"Because it's sometimes that you don't like someone as a person, not because you're black, white or Chinese, but because you don't like the person. So you talk about racism, but it's more about how you feel with that person," he said.

Davids also insisted it's time for the governing bodies to come down hard on any instances of racism.

"I think that, not only in England, but also in the governing body, there is a problem," he said.

"And if you don't act adequately and determined to certain causes, it's going to get out of hand. If you look at the last game with the England under 21's, it's unacceptable. There has to be a severe punishment to clubs or countries that have those things.

"It's difficult to punish certain people because of lack of culture but we still have to find a solution.

"Sometimes you have to act hard and swift, in certain cases it has happened and certain cases it didn't. That is why we really have to work on it," Davids said.

they are planning to force prem clubs to interview minority groups regardless and I'm saying I'm with davides on the issue

Look at my three questions again. The article still confirms that everything you asserted about them is wrong.

1.Nobody is suggesting managers should be given jobs without the correct licenses.

2.Nobody is suggesting Premier League clubs have to appoint a manager without experience.

3.Nobody is suggesting anyone will be given a job on the basis of the colour of their skin.

So, once again, what on Earth were you talking about when you said all three were the case before?

[Slacker]

Monkeh,I think we are making the same point.Why give roles with an established blueprint just to make change for the sake of it.Would you remake the Incredible Hulk orange?With the amount of films books etc produced every year is it difficult to produce original positive roles for minority groups?

[LondonBristolian]

Ok point taken on the forcing thing, thats an overstatement on my behalf. But the point being, why even have on a shortlist of potential candidates a group of individuals that have been put on there not by merit alone. If they thought you were good enough you would be head hunted, if you thought you were good enough you would apply for the position. Its just not needed IMO.

I'd like to agree with you. And, in most cases of positive discrimination, I'd say everything you say is the case. But the number of black managers compared to the number of black players so incredibly small that it seems highly unlikely it's purely down to chance or people not being good enough...

[Monkeh]

Well, quite. But that's the difference isn't it? In a non-football job you've generally got the names and CVs of people you don't know. So skin colour literally can't come into it. With football, everyone'll know who most the applicants are and, for all attempts at fairness, nobody's got the ability just to judge someone they know and have an opinion about on a CV alone - anyone who's ever interviewed people internally will tell you that.

With regard to the experience thing, who says they're not going to suitable? Football clubs often appoint people with no management experience but plenty of playing experience - everyone has to start somewhere...

but how many black coachs out there with the correct badges are applying?

if none are how can it be a problem?

You only here snipits if there are a thousend black coachs in this country and all are applying for coaching jobs and none are getting any then yes there is a problem,

but hand on heart can you tell me how many black coaches are out there?

Because I only know of a few (we have one at this club in our sports scienctist guy) you got a few at charlton, Wolves you have some,

there are plenty out there

the only coach I know personally who hasn't had a job in managment for a while is Leroy and thats not down to the colour of his skin its down to the two jobs he's done previously at Brentford and Torquay, so he's moved into pundutry

[LondonBristolian]

Monkeh,I think we are making the same point.Why give roles with an established blueprint just to make change for the sake of it.Would you remake the Incredible Hulk orange?With the amount of films books etc produced every year is it difficult to produce original positive roles for minority groups?

It's not really relevant to a debate about black managers though. Yeah, there's no point changing an established character for a sake of it and you could argue (and I would) James Bond, or any character, is shaped by who they are and the environment they grew up in. To just change his race and change nothing else ignores the fact that a black man who joined the Secret service (especially in the 60s) would likely have a completely different experience to a white man who did the same thing and be a different person as a result. Bond's whole character is basically a result of post-imperial upper-middle-class white society and you can't change that without changing the character.

But, as I say, that's not really connected to discussions about whether to have more black managers...

[Eco]

but how many black coachs out there with the correct badges are applying?

if none are how can it be a problem?

You only here snipits if there are a thousend black coachs in this country and all are applying for coaching jobs and none are getting any then yes there is a problem,

but hand on heart can you tell me how many black coaches are out there?

Because I only know of a few (we have one at this club in our sports scienctist guy) you got a few at charlton, Wolves you have some,

there are plenty out there

the only coach I know personally who hasn't had a job in managment for a while is Leroy and thats not down to the colour of his skin its down to the two jobs he's done previously at Brentford and Torquay, so he's moved into pundutry

Did you watch the Ricky Hill vid ?

[Slacker]

That is the real issue.How many qualified black coaches are applying for positions and being overlooked.Does anyone have any idea the percentage of black players who go on to take their badges?On the surface it doesn't look like many do .Perhaps this is why not many move into management .With the amount of black players it would be a shame if that is the case.

[Gazred]

I'd like to agree with you. And, in most cases of positive discrimination, I'd say everything you say is the case. But the number of black managers compared to the number of black players so incredibly small that it seems highly unlikely it's purely down to chance or people not being good enough...

Indeed, and the numbers as you say don't match up and there probably is something wrong somewhere that does need looking at. Doing it this way though is unlikely to change that statistic IMO. If your a racist, bigoted chairman, manager whatever, yes you'll go through the motions and interview someone from a minority for the job but your certainly not going to give it to them regardless of employment history.

[LondonBristolian]

but how many black coachs out there with the correct badges are applying?

if none are how can it be a problem?

You only here snipits if there are a thousend black coachs in this country and all are applying for coaching jobs and none are getting any then yes there is a problem,

but hand on heart can you tell me how many black coaches are out there?

Because I only know of a few (we have one at this club in our sports scienctist guy) you got a few at charlton, Wolves you have some,

there are plenty out there

the only coach I know personally who hasn't had a job in managment for a while is Leroy and thats not down to the colour of his skin its down to the two jobs he's done previously at Brentford and Torquay, so he's moved into pundutry

We don't know how many black coaches are applying. And, more crucially, we don't know how many black players don't do their coaching badges because they believe a career in management won't be possible.

But, if this rule comes in and then no aspiring black managers apply, then that's no problem and there's no decision to make. But, if there are black players who want to apply for jobs and then decide they can, then all well and good. I can't really see how anyone loses here.

[Monkeh]

That is the real issue.How many qualified black coaches are applying for positions and being overlooked.Does anyone have any idea the percentage of black players who go on to take their badges?On the surface it doesn't look like many do .Perhaps this is why not many move into management .With the amount of black players it would be a shame if that is the case.

thats the point I'm trying to make,

Paul Ince made history in 2008 he became the first black manager in the english top flight, he didn't have any coaching badges and he was bombed out by october because he didn't do a good job,

The issue is not in the interviewing stage for me, the issue is getting the black players to apply and go through there coaching badges, if they are denyed this then yes there is a racism problem in our game,

Davids is making the right move he is a 37 yo former top player who is starting at the bottom and learning his trade at Barnet, more coaches of all back gorunds should be doing this

[LondonBristolian]

Indeed, and the numbers as you say don't match up and there probably is something wrong somewhere that does need looking at. Doing it this way though is unlikely to change that statistic IMO. If your a racist, bigoted chairman, manager whatever, yes you'll go through the motions and interview someone from a minority for the job but your certainly not going to give it to them regardless of employment history.

Again, on the face of it, I'd agree with you, were it not for the fact the same rule has worked so well in American Football (6% to 22% of black managers). So it does seem there's something in it.

The thing is I don't think that many chairmen actually are racist bigots consciously not hiring black people - it's just that when management jobs come up the same names tend to come up again and again and they don't think outside the box. So once they've got a black candidate in an interview, it might be they have something interesting to say in terms of how they'd approach things that haven't previously considered (or, obviously, it might not be and they might just give it to someone else).

[TRL]

Speaking to someone I knew yesterday, saying how it 'wouldn't be right' for the next James Bond to black, then followed it by the ' I'm not racist or anything!'. I fear when attitudes and beliefs such as that are still held in this country, you could interview all manner of minority groups and they wouldn't get the job anyhow, if they came across a person like that interviewing them.

he is quite correct, Ian Fleming wrote the books, and James Bond was White, not black. it isn't anything to do with beliefs or being racist or not. james bond was Written as a White character, not a Black character. Likewise In the green mile, Michael Clark Duncan's character should not be white.

I full agree with the person you know. It has nothing at all to do with racism, more to do with following the character as it was written.

[Rich i e]

but how many black coachs out there with the correct badges are applying?

if none are how can it be a problem?

You only here snipits if there are a thousend black coachs in this country and all are applying for coaching jobs and none are getting any then yes there is a problem,

but hand on heart can you tell me how many black coaches are out there?

Because I only know of a few (we have one at this club in our sports scienctist guy) you got a few at charlton, Wolves you have some,

there are plenty out there

the only coach I know personally who hasn't had a job in managment for a while is Leroy and thats not down to the colour of his skin its down to the two jobs he's done previously at Brentford and Torquay, so he's moved into pundutry

As Ricky Hill says he wasn't getting the interviews, so he has gone elsewhere. There's the problem.

[Monkeh]

Again, on the face of it, I'd agree with you, were it not for the fact the same rule has worked so well in American Football (6% to 22% of black managers). So it does seem there's something in it.

The thing is I don't think that many chairmen actually are racist bigots consciously not hiring black people - it's just that when management jobs come up the same names tend to come up again and again and they don't think outside the box. So once they've got a black candidate in an interview, it might be they have something interesting to say in terms of how they'd approach things that haven't previously considered (or, obviously, it might not be and they might just give it to someone else).

that problem is again an experance thing, put it this way you are a chairman of a football club you are sitting bottom of your league 5 points a drift, do you

A) appoint a proven manager who has a wealth of experiance

or

B) appoint a unproven manager with no experiance

you are always going to go for a because in a situation like that you will need one of the old heads like mick mcarthy or Harry Redknapp because you know they can do the job and they can save you,

if its pre-season and the league hasn't started thats the only time you will opt for the unproven manager,

[Monkeh]

As Ricky Hill says he wasn't getting the interviews, so he has gone elsewhere. There's the problem.

Ricky hill's only experance as manager was at Luton and then he only won 2 games, thats the reason he's not getting a managers job not his skin colour

[Slacker]

That is the real issue.How many qualified black coaches are applying for positions and being overlooked.Does anyone have any idea the percentage of black players who go on to take their badges?On the surface it doesn't look like many do .Perhaps this is why not many move into management .With the amount of black players it would be a shame if that is the case.Listening to Ricky Hill does make it sound that opportunities are scarce at best.Hard to believe that these days any lower division club would overlook a capable new manager due to colour.Surely fans would have no problem with a black manager being appointed?

[LondonBristolian]

Ricky hill's only experance as manager was at Luton and then he only won 2 games, thats the reason he's not getting a managers job not his skin colour

I'm impressed that you know for a fact that this is the reason. You must have a lot of contacts with a lot of chairmen...

[Monkeh]

I'm impressed that you know for a fact that this is the reason. You must have a lot of contacts with a lot of chairmen...

I don't know for a fact but I know I wouldn't be keen on hiring a manger base on the face he only won 2 of the 15 games he was in charge of,

I would consider him as an assistant or a coach but not a manager,

Its the same reason I would not hire millen as a manager or Tinnian because of their record here

[beaverface]

Personally, one of the things I'd look for in a manager is how well they articulate themselves. I'd be more likely to give a job to someone like Clarke Carlisle than Andy Cole event though Cole has the better pedigree in the game.

There's a lot of black (and white) players who have come up from under privileged parts of the Country and like to talk in slang or street talk which in itself doesn't do them any favours.

I'm not necessarily on about accents here, otherwise the likes of Ian Holloway, Martin O'Neil, Chris Coleman, Alex Fergurson would never have got jobs, but the intelligence they portray.

[Slacker]

I don't know for a fact but I know I wouldn't be keen on hiring a manger base on the face he only won 2 of the 15 games he was in charge of,

I would consider him as an assistant or a coach but not a manager,

Its the same reason I would not hire millen as a manager or Tinnian because of their record here

[Slacker]

I think the point Ricky Hill is making though is that black managers are not getting far enough to even win or lose games.It is not that they have poor records it is that they can't get on the ladder in the first place.

[Monkeh]

I think the point Ricky Hill is making though is that black managers are not getting far enough to even win or lose games.It is not that they have poor records it is that they can't get on the ladder in the first place.

but that goes back to the point I rasied about how many are going for badges?

Ricky hill got on the ladder and failed in his time at luton, for all we know the only jobs he applied for since were at chelsea,

But again going from purley a managment point of view I wouldn't be keen on giving him the job based on what happend at luton like I said the same reason I wouldn't give Tinnian or millen a job not on who they are but on their past achievements,

I'm intrested to see how he gets on at Tampa Bay,

[havanatopia]

I don't quite agree with the "You couldn't have a black James Bond" however, some may believe it is essential that the actor is a white male aged 30-50 ... This [acting] is one of the few times when discrimination is allowed, that and working in private property permanently

As far as Bond is concerned it is simply following what the character reflects; a white oxbridge educated alpha male. You cannot, as a result, put a black guy into that role or it would not be accurate. Likewise you would not have a white guy playing that dude in the A Team with visible muscles and a pony tail.

minority groups as an earlier poster suggested are, indeed, under-represented and on the face of it 3% in the population and 2% in management vis a vis the other 92 does not sound a lot buts 50% lower than it 'should' be if you have positive discrimination.

All you can do in my view, if you assume the vast majority of club decision makers are not racist (obviously) is to cajole and encourage more minority chaps to go for the badges and get the education. Seems to me right now they are not and as a result few are coming forward. Its going to be a long hard struggle for them but there will gradually be more and the only way, correctly, for that to happen is for them to fight their way up the ladder; most would not want it any other way.

[Monkeh]

As far as Bond is concerned it is simply following what the character reflects; a white oxbridge educated alpha male. You cannot, as a result, put a black guy into that role or it would not be accurate. Likewise you would not have a white guy playing that dude in the A Team with visible muscles and a pony tail.

minority groups as an earlier poster suggested are, indeed, under-represented and on the face of it 3% in the population and 2% in management vis a vis the other 92 does not sound a lot buts 50% lower than it 'should' be if you have positive discrimination.

All you can do in my view, if you assume the vast majority of club decision makers are not racist (obviously) is to cajole and encourage more minority chaps to go for the badges and get the education. Seems to me right now they are not and as a result few are coming forward. Its going to be a long hard struggle for them but there will gradually be more and the only way, correctly, for that to happen is for them to fight their way up the ladder; most would not want it any other way.

Game set match, its not going to change simply by force clubs to interview, if anything should be made it should be a miniorty encuragement rule aimed at players to encurage them into coaching, thus getting the quilifactations they require then you will start to see more clubs "taking a punt" on a minority player

[Gazred]

Again, on the face of it, I'd agree with you, were it not for the fact the same rule has worked so well in American Football (6% to 22% of black managers). So it does seem there's something in it.

The thing is I don't think that many chairmen actually are racist bigots consciously not hiring black people - it's just that when management jobs come up the same names tend to come up again and again and they don't think outside the box. So once they've got a black candidate in an interview, it might be they have something interesting to say in terms of how they'd approach things that haven't previously considered (or, obviously, it might not be and they might just give it to someone else).

All things considered on this, and you make your points very well, If this gives anyone, minority or not an opportunity that otherwise wouldn't be presented to them, then i guess it can only be a positive thing. Who knows, we may have already missed some great potential managers in the game as they just didnt get that all important first job to show what they have got.