The Racism Debate - Is "positive" Discrimination Okay?

[JM91]

don't know about anyone else, but this whole scenario is starting to get on my nerves. don't get me wrong, I'm anti-racist and definitely support plans for harsher punishments for racism, however certain aspects really need looking at. I mean the whole term positive discrimination implies that racism to white people is okay.

Having a "Black Players Football Association" is racist. if it wasn't then why not set up an equivalent for white players?

the Proposed enforcement of black people to be in 20% of Jobs throughout the whole of football (black people make up roughly 3% of the country) is racism.

Take Rio Ferdinand as an example, using the term "coconut" as an insult is to presume that being white is a bad thing... i.e racism.

Who knows, maybe I've missed the point? could someone enlighten me?

[JammyOne]

No such thing as 'positive discrimination'; it's either racist or it's not. Having a black players football association is inherently racist, no matter how you look at it.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

don't know about anyone else, but this whole scenario is starting to get on my nerves. don't get me wrong, I'm anti-racist and definitely support plans for harsher punishments for racism, however certain aspects really need looking at. I mean the whole term positive discrimination implies that racism to white people is okay.

Having a "Black Players Football Association" is racist. if it wasn't then why not set up an equivalent for white players?

the Proposed enforcement of black people to be in 20% of Jobs throughout the whole of football (black people make up roughly 3% of the country) is racism.

Take Rio Ferdinand as an example, using the term "coconut" as an insult is to presume that being white is a bad thing... i.e racism.

Who knows, maybe I've missed the point? could someone enlighten me?

But he didn't use the term coconut did he?, somebody else used the term choc ice on twitter and I believe Ferdinand just laughed, so it would seem you have totally missed this particular point totally inaccurate on all counts, try again.

[BASSO]

think these guys are just looking to wind people up into a racist frenzy, instead fans and important people in the media need to start calling out for their absolute shite before they turn football into a polite politically correct bore. did nobody tell this association black lawyer cun/t to judge someone by the content of their character and not the colour of their skin? hes even demanding for spurs fans to referring to themselves as yids, racist cun/t and no appreciation of context, whats the odds that he doesn't even like football?

[Southport Red]

I understand that positive discrimination has noble aims ( e.g. Women only candidates in elections). I understand why people want to correct historical injustices and try to engineer a solution o correct the imbalances. However, for mt, the answer is in it's name, positive discrimination is DISCRIMINATION. Two wrongs never did make a right, the answer is a true meritocracy, a world where the BEST person for any role is chosen, irrespective of any other consideration.

If you only selected football players, wagers, MPs, CEOs etc based ONLY on ability, you would quickly find that the ratios of any one group DO represent the general population.

So, I understand the reasons for positive discrimination but two wrongs do not make one right.

[i_am_red]

Apparently now this Peter Herbert (black lawyers association) is threatening to report Spurs fans for being racist by chanting 'Yid', I can't help but feel he is trying to further his own cause and is going to end up causing more tension and problems.

[123456789000]

[Barrs Court Red]

Apparently now this Peter Herbert (black lawyers association) is threatening to report Spurs fans for being racist by chanting 'Yid', I can't help but feel he is trying to further his own cause and is going to end up causing more tension and problems.

The more idiots like this Peter Herbert lead an unwarrented witch hunt, the greater the backlash will be.

[Spud55]

Apparently now this Peter Herbert (black lawyers association) is threatening to report Spurs fans for being racist by chanting 'Yid', I can't help but feel he is trying to further his own cause and is going to end up causing more tension and problems.

I wondered what that was all about, I knew he was bleating on about spurs being anti Semitic but I didn't realise it was that. Don't spurs fans call themselfa the 'yid' army because they have a rather large Jewish fanbase ?

[Barrs Court Red]

They've always been associated as a Jewish club, I think back in the day a lot of Jews lived in Tottenham.

[Eco]

You can add the Black Music Awards to that as well.

100% Racist - never hear any Guardanista's banging on about that.

Black Police Officers Association - Gay officers association.

Have a White heterosexual Police Officers Association and the world would come to an end with most of certain parts of Bristol choking on their Hazlenut Frappe Skinny Mocha's.

Of course its racist - just more leg ups to minorities at the expense of the English Working Class.

Nearly 15% of kids leaving school don't meet an 'expected standard' of literacy.

The answer? More foreign language schools for Pakistani and Afghan Muslims of course!

Good old Europhiles in action again.

I'd imagine the BPO came about because the Met was found to be instituionally racist by Lord McPherson after the Stephen Lawrence miscarriage of justice. For you to accuse them of being racist is a tad ironic.

I think it's sad that minorities feel the need to form their own groups but if discrimination wasn't so widespread then they probably wouldn't feel the need.

[CardiffBlackLabel]

don't know about anyone else, but this whole scenario is starting to get on my nerves. don't get me wrong, I'm anti-racist and definitely support plans for harsher punishments for racism, however certain aspects really need looking at. I mean the whole term positive discrimination implies that racism to white people is okay.

Having a "Black Players Football Association" is racist. if it wasn't then why not set up an equivalent for white players?

the Proposed enforcement of black people to be in 20% of Jobs throughout the whole of football (black people make up roughly 3% of the country) is racism.

Take Rio Ferdinand as an example, using the term "coconut" as an insult is to presume that being white is a bad thing... i.e racism.

Who knows, maybe I've missed the point? could someone enlighten me?

You've not missed the point. You are bang on the money and I say that as a very liberal person who totally opposes racism. This all has to stop. It's totally out of proportion, and when you enact change on things that are out of proportion you cause far more damage than the alleged problem in the first place.

This whole debate is essentially bad politics. Someone needs to come in, get a handle on the situation and knock some heads together.

[JammyOne]

I love Freeman. Great guy, he has some very valid points.

[Red Cloud]

racism is the same as sexism in this country, it only works one way - you have not choice but to lump it!

[eskay]

These groups representing ethic minorities are formed because of racism. They represent a voice for the persecuted. This has been the case for many years, the black panthers, the 5 percent nation etc.

If we were all treated equally you would have no need form such organisations.

Positive discrimination is as it says, still discrimination. Treat everyone the same, all the time, simple you would think.

[the frampton balti]

this example is ridiculous.

why the f### is a butcher shop in clifton being run by a frenchman!

do you make a habit of charging into markets demanding sausage? how bizarre!

you do have a point in there somewhere however the delivery is poor just like the BPO . I'm assuming you mean the post office.

[formerly known as ivan]

Don't know about anyone else but the way things are with our club currently and the whole racism thing going on and on I'm nearly ready to turn my back on football altogether.

If this black players union thing goes ahead that will be the final straw for me. Absolutely no need for it what so ever. It is like them saying every white person is a racist which clearly isn't the case.

And then you get people trying to make something racist with this tottenham thing which for god knows how many has not been a racist chant until someone wants to jump on the bandwagon.

The whole thing is a joke and is killing the game.

[the frampton balti]

Don't know about anyone else but the way things are with our club currently and the whole racism thing going on and on I'm nearly ready to turn my back on football altogether.

If this black players union thing goes ahead that will be the final straw for me. Absolutely no need for it what so ever. It is like them saying every white person is a racist which clearly isn't the case.

And then you get people trying to make something racist with this tottenham thing which for god knows how many has not been a racist chant until someone wants to jump on the bandwagon.

The whole thing is a joke and is killing the game.

Try not to be so down../...Is this really affecting your enjoyment of the football.? when i get frustrated about society i always find jumping around making chimpanzee noises a great relief. Usually , but not always ,performed in the safe confines of the family home.

[Andy Horsman]

You've not missed the point. You are bang on the money and I say that as a very liberal person who totally opposes racism. This all has to stop. It's totally out of proportion, and when you enact change on things that are out of proportion you cause far more damage than the alleged problem in the first place.

This whole debate is essentially bad politics. Someone needs to come in, get a handle on the situation and knock some heads together.

Well put, common sense must prevail and I am totally anti-racist. This Herbert character is a wannabe stirrer of the old shite methinks!!

[Andy Horsman]

You can add the Black Music Awards to that as well.

100% Racist - never hear any Guardanista's banging on about that.

Black Police Officers Association - Gay officers association.

Have a White heterosexual Police Officers Association and the world would come to an end with most of certain parts of Bristol choking on their Hazlenut Frappe Skinny Mocha's.

Of course its racist - just more leg ups to minorities at the expense of the English Working Class.

Nearly 15% of kids leaving school don't meet an 'expected standard' of literacy.

The answer? More foreign language schools for Pakistani and Afghan Muslims of course!

Good old Europhiles in action again.

My take on the English Working Class is that it s every colour/ religion/ persuasion. All getting royally shafted by the same common adversary.......

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

There's some real bitterness and twistedness on this thread, reflecting views that I thought had passed long ago.

The fact is that there is still institutional racism against black people in the western world, and the thought that it is unacceptable (and even racist, for heaven's sake) for black people to form associations in order to do something about it is frankly ludicrous. How were civil rights ( such as they are) won in the USA? By black people joining together to win the support of white people to fight racism. The notion that we are all controlled by some left wing agenda, when in the Uk we have the most right wing government for decades, is ridiculous. Racism still exists and its up to you if you do anything to fight it. But frankly I become suspicious of anyone who declares themselves as not racist - it usually precedes a very dubious contribution, as are many on this thread.

[Eco]

I congratulate you on spectacularly missing the point of this thread by 100 miles.

As you may have been one of the 15% of children,I will dumb it down a bit.

If you can't get into a club of White people because you are Black - Thats racist.

If you can't get into a club of Black people, because you are White - that's racist.

It makes no difference if either the Black or White person had been racially discriminated against before - it is racist.

If I went to Ali's bazaar in Tower Hamlets as a Christian and demanded Pork, that would be insensitive.My request would be refused.Outrage by Muslims would occur.

If Ali went into Mr Fortesque's Organic Butchery in Clifton and asked that all meat be Halal, he would be politely refused. Ali would then go to the European Court of Human rights,and Mr Fortesque would be dragged through the lovey left-wing press as the most outrageous Infidel since General Sobieski.And probably lose his house,family and friends.

The top example is one of direct racism to both Black and White.

The bottom example is what happens when the lunatics take over the asylum and Political correctness goes mad.

I'd love to tell you the second one is made up.....

PC is on the verge of adversly affecting so many people that a most un-PC backlash, may be a lot closer than one thinks. and this one,as in Greece,Spain and Portugal will be on the streets. Unfortunately the BPO rep only works Mon - Fri 9-5 so he won't be available to help his collegues.

Let me put it this way then, personally I think you're talking rubbish. Most 'PC gone mad' stories are fiction and stirred up by the right wing press,usually the Scum or the Mail.

[Snufflelufagus]

Apparently now this Peter Herbert (black lawyers association) is threatening to report Spurs fans for being racist by chanting 'Yid', I can't help but feel he is trying to further his own cause and is going to end up causing more tension and problems.

I did wonder why Spurs fans last night were singing 'We'll sing what we like were Tottenham hotspur we'll sing what we like'

[chipdawg]

I congratulate you on spectacularly missing the point of this thread by 100 miles.

As you may have been one of the 15% of children,I will dumb it down a bit.

If you can't get into a club of White people because you are Black - Thats racist.

If you can't get into a club of Black people, because you are White - that's racist.

It makes no difference if either the Black or White person had been racially discriminated against before - it is racist.

If I went to Ali's bazaar in Tower Hamlets as a Christian and demanded Pork, that would be insensitive.My request would be refused.Outrage by Muslims would occur.

If Ali went into Mr Fortesque's Organic Butchery in Clifton and asked that all meat be Halal, he would be politely refused. Ali would then go to the European Court of Human rights,and Mr Fortesque would be dragged through the lovey left-wing press as the most outrageous Infidel since General Sobieski.And probably lose his house,family and friends.

The top example is one of direct racism to both Black and White.

The bottom example is what happens when the lunatics take over the asylum and Political correctness goes mad.

I'd love to tell you the second one is made up.....

PC is on the verge of adversly affecting so many people that a most un-PC backlash, may be a lot closer than one thinks. and this one,as in Greece,Spain and Portugal will be on the streets. Unfortunately the BPO rep only works Mon - Fri 9-5 so he won't be available to help his collegues.

Oh the irony and accusing someone of missing the point and then being so factually incorrect! Taking an aforementioned organisation as an example, any police officer can join the Association of Black Police Officers, in fact I believe they had a White spokesperson for a while. The question is, why would you? It's an organisation that is set up to represent the interests of black police officers. The issue is in the fact that black police officers need an association to represent themselves in the first place. I don't agree with it a it's divisive but it's not racist. Similarly, I don't agree with the formation of a black footballers union, but it would only be racist if they had a stated policy of not allowing white players to join and you would think they would be better represented by the existing union. I do agree that the press would probably have a field day with a 'White footballers union' but as long as they admitted black and Asian footballers it would be neither racist nor illegal

As for your meat-buying analogy, my spin would be that if you went into an Muslim-run establishment demanding pork you would be a *****. If you went into a Christian-run establishment demanding halal produce you would also be a *****. It's a fantastic example of how people of all races and religions can be enormous *****s. As for getting taken to the European court of human rights, it wouldn't even be the definition of a spurious law suit because it wouldn't even comprise a law suit. Business owners can stock whatever the hell they like, there is no law on that. The only rule that could be applied is one of common sense in that if you have a customer willing to pay money for halal meat then you should probably get some halal meat. These kind of 'stories' about racial inequality are so ridiculous that they undermine any valid point you may have been able to make about the problems of 'positive discrimination', of which there are many

PS I set the 'Black Lawyers Society' aside from my prior examples because they're clearly more about self interest and self furtherment than any kind of social injustice. They are lawyers after all...

[Spud55]

There's some real bitterness and twistedness on this thread, reflecting views that I thought had passed long ago.

The fact is that there is still institutional racism against black people in the western world, and the thought that it is unacceptable (and even racist, for heaven's sake) for black people to form associations in order to do something about it is frankly ludicrous. How were civil rights ( such as they are) won in the USA? By black people joining together to win the support of white people to fight racism. The notion that we are all controlled by some left wing agenda, when in the Uk we have the most right wing government for decades, is ridiculous. Racism still exists and its up to you if you do anything to fight it. But frankly I become suspicious of anyone who declares themselves as not racist - it usually precedes a very dubious contribution, as are many on this thread.

But there are no civil rights issues in this country, every person has the same basic set of rights, no matter their creed or colour, so there is no need to form civil rights movements. Where is this institutional rascism in football ? just because some idiot lawyer thinks its rascist not to have a massively disproportionate number of black and ethnic people in coaching and management roles, despite them making up a very small percentage of the population. Theese are the same idiots who trot out the fact that the likes of John Barnes cant get a job in management, thats nothing to do with him being black thats all to do with him being utterly crap at the job. Are there massive numbers of black qualified UEFA coaches sitting around twiddling their thumbs because nobody will give them a job because they are rascist ? or are there just not very many black qualified coaches because they believe there is some kind of rascist agenda, when there clearly isn't otherwise Chris Powell wouldn't be in a job, if its the first case then i will accept that football is institutionally rascist, if it's the second one, well that is their problem and if black players in numbers do their coaching badges then they will more than likely get jobs in coaching, and the more coaches there are the more black managers there will be.

Why can't we just treat people as people, minoroties often seek to have their own organisations (which i can understand) but often they only end up further entrenching division and making the problem worse than it already is, especially when they are just being stupid and they get a backlash from moderate people. If you have a beef with the way football in run, get your arse to the top of the PFA (like clarke Carlisle has done) and use that position to enact change from within, don't set up a new organisation that makes rediculous demands and just pisses people off.

[sunningdalered]

There's some real bitterness and twistedness on this thread, reflecting views that I thought had passed long ago.

The fact is that there is still institutional racism against black people in the western world, and the thought that it is unacceptable (and even racist, for heaven's sake) for black people to form associations in order to do something about it is frankly ludicrous. How were civil rights ( such as they are) won in the USA? By black people joining together to win the support of white people to fight racism. The notion that we are all controlled by some left wing agenda, when in the Uk we have the most right wing government for decades, is ridiculous. Racism still exists and its up to you if you do anything to fight it. But frankly I become suspicious of anyone who declares themselves as not racist - it usually precedes a very dubious contribution, as are many on this thread.

Nail on the head. History is littered with examples of racism and prejudice - but what we are discussing is the UK now. The BPO is still fighting battles that were won generations ago, there is no need for it in the UK now. Black footballers and managers are not discriminated against any more. In time, there will undoubtedly be more top flight black managers, as more of the black, ex-pro guys do their coaching badges etc. There is no need to force the issue IMO. When can the ordinary, white, man on the street in the UK stop apologising for the inhumanity of history?

[the frampton balti]

when will the ordinary working class white man on the street stop moaning! the BPO was just fine untill the UPS and the THL got involved with everything from blow up dolls to cheap imported chinese custom jewellery.

[Red-Robbo]

Re: the rather bizarre butchers discussion.

I don't think there's anything in the Koran that stops Muslims selling pork (or alcohol for that matter). Most Bangladeshi run 'Indian restaurants' serve booze and you can buy bacon etc in every Asian-run grocery.

At least half the meat on sale in the UK now is halal, so this mythical Clifton butchers would be offering that anyway - like as not, without telling the customers whether it is, unless they ask.

Some of us who consider halal and kosher slaughtering practices cruel are trying to get the government to enforce labelling regulations on it and lobbying supermarkets to always offer non-halal alternatives.

Re: black lobbying organisations. I don't consider them intrinsically racist. Isn't the Black Police Assoc just a branch of the Police Federation - along with various other special interest clubs and societies? I don't really see how it's more racist than having - for example - a Polish club for ex-pats here.

It's a different matter if you ask, should employers use positive discrimination when recruiting. No is the obvious answer, and indeed, with a few exceptions, that is the position of UK law on the subject.

[glynriley]

Apparently now this Peter Herbert (black lawyers association) is threatening to report Spurs fans for being racist by chanting 'Yid', I can't help but feel he is trying to further his own cause and is going to end up causing more tension and problems.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20270298

[JM91]

There's some real bitterness and twistedness on this thread, reflecting views that I thought had passed long ago.

The fact is that there is still institutional racism against black people in the western world, and the thought that it is unacceptable (and even racist, for heaven's sake) for black people to form associations in order to do something about it is frankly ludicrous. How were civil rights ( such as they are) won in the USA? By black people joining together to win the support of white people to fight racism. The notion that we are all controlled by some left wing agenda, when in the Uk we have the most right wing government for decades, is ridiculous. Racism still exists and its up to you if you do anything to fight it. But frankly I become suspicious of anyone who declares themselves as not racist - it usually precedes a very dubious contribution, as are many on this thread.

to be fair, people declaring themselves as not being racist is a sign of the times. accusations fly around everywhere, you have to excuse yourself from a fool misinterpreting what you say.

Also, not to devalue your opinion or anything, but throughout your whole post you seem to be referring to racism as simply white against black. the point is that that's a ridiculous presumption to make. segregation is a backwards step for this country, a country which I would proudly claim to have the highest level of integration in the world. not to say it's perfect, but it works on a greater and more widespread social level here than anywhere else. and that's both ways, including countries such as Zimbabwe where white people are subject to racial discrimination regularly. we've come a long way to ruin it all now.

there is probably still a level of racism in football, but i'd argue that there's not a sufficient amount to call it a crisis. Afterall, racism isn't tolerated by society as a whole here and as a relatively young city fan i have never heard it at ashton gate or on my away traels. in England the pressing issue is not discrimination towards black people. if you look at statistics and facts it's the Asian community, the highest ethnic minority group in the UK yet almost no involvement in football. the last i heard there were 2 black coaches in the 92 professional clubs. not exactly completely disproportionate to the 3% of the country they make up. now compare that with the 25% of black footballers in the 92 clubs, there's discrimination. you could presume that the figures would reflect the demography of society, by extension, in playing terms at least the figures suggest it's white and asian players who are being discriminated against.